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sungam
Nov 23, 2009, 9:05 AM
Post #51 of 177
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But can anyone tie a ptftw on bight with one hand?
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mikebarter387
Nov 23, 2009, 2:42 PM
Post #53 of 177
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ski.ninja wrote: sbaclimber wrote: As always, an entertaining video!  That being said, and all other points already mentioned aside, I ask you....why do you make this statement, more than once....!!?? "I do not wanna see you using any ..... modified ... sort of bowline to tie into your harness" I use a figure-8, for all the obvious reasons, but a lot of people I climb with (in Germany) use a double bowline to tie in. Why, in your opinion, is this knot not valid as a tie-in?? If I were to tie in with a bowline, that's probably how I'd do it. However, bowlines are tricky to check to see if they're tied properly. For example, that double bowline with the tail running up through the bight again is virtually identical to a single bowline with a Yosemite finish. I've been tying bowlines long enough that I could probably get away with it, but the figure 8 retrace is a lot easier to tie when I'm tired. The benefits might be a knot that's easier to get loose after a big fall, but the complications involved don't make it attractive to me.
I think that ski ninja pretty much hit it on the head. If you have been climbing for several years it then you can make a more informed decision on ho you want to die. It really is hard for someone to check your knot and hard to check someone else at a glance.
I have never seen anybody walking around with a retied figure 8 tied to their harness which leads me to believe that no matter how tight they get they always manage to get it undone.
I have seen some pretty shoddy bowline tie ins over the years. Enough so that I have actuallly picked up my rope and went elsewhere just so that I didn't have to deal ith the aftermath.
There is enough stuff that can go wrong in climbing without adding to the formula. Lot of these guys do it to be diffrent and look cool.
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sbaclimber
Nov 23, 2009, 2:47 PM
Post #54 of 177
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mikebarter387 wrote: It really is hard for someone to check your knot and hard to check someone else at a glance.
Fair enough.....
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nthusiastj
Nov 23, 2009, 3:12 PM
Post #55 of 177
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angry wrote: The best part of this thread is that no matter how long it goes, noone is learning anything. It's knotsurbation.
I have to agree. I was just remembering why I don;t read these threads.
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nthusiastj
Nov 23, 2009, 3:14 PM
Post #56 of 177
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sbaclimber wrote: mikebarter387 wrote: It really is hard for someone to check your knot and hard to check someone else at a glance. Fair enough.....
No harder than checking any other knot that you know.
It's like saying that no one can understand you if you speak spanish. You just need to learn spanish too.
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sbaclimber
Nov 23, 2009, 3:15 PM
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nthusiastj wrote: sbaclimber wrote: mikebarter387 wrote: It really is hard for someone to check your knot and hard to check someone else at a glance. Fair enough..... No harder than checking any other knot that you know. 
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johnwesely
Nov 23, 2009, 3:40 PM
Post #58 of 177
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mikebarter387 wrote: I think that ski ninja pretty much hit it on the head. If you have been climbing for several years it then you can make a more informed decision on ho you want to die. It really is hard for someone to check your knot and hard to check someone else at a glance. I have never seen anybody walking around with a retied figure 8 tied to their harness which leads me to believe that no matter how tight they get they always manage to get it undone. I have seen some pretty shoddy bowline tie ins over the years. Enough so that I have actuallly picked up my rope and went elsewhere just so that I didn't have to deal ith the aftermath. There is enough stuff that can go wrong in climbing without adding to the formula. Lot of these guys do it to be diffrent and look cool.
I once had a figure eight that took over an hour to untie, even with a nut tool.
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angry
Nov 23, 2009, 3:46 PM
Post #59 of 177
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Maybe you're just stupid?
I've rigged slacklines with figure 8's and got them untied in a few minutes. I've untied double fisherman's knots in webbing that have been fallen on without too much trouble. Come to think of it, I've never had trouble untying a knot.
I do use a bowline for stuff like slacklines now though. still, I just don't buy the argument that you won't get your 8 untied.
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johnwesely
Nov 23, 2009, 3:56 PM
Post #60 of 177
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angry wrote: Maybe you're just stupid? I've rigged slacklines with figure 8's and got them untied in a few minutes. I've untied double fisherman's knots in webbing that have been fallen on without too much trouble. Come to think of it, I've never had trouble untying a knot. I do use a bowline for stuff like slacklines now though. still, I just don't buy the argument that you won't get your 8 untied.
Maybe I am stupid, but then, so were the other ten or so people who tried to untie the knot and were unsuccessful.
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mikebarter387
Nov 23, 2009, 4:11 PM
Post #61 of 177
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johnwesely wrote: angry wrote: Maybe you're just stupid? I've rigged slacklines with figure 8's and got them untied in a few minutes. I've untied double fisherman's knots in webbing that have been fallen on without too much trouble. Come to think of it, I've never had trouble untying a knot. I do use a bowline for stuff like slacklines now though. still, I just don't buy the argument that you won't get your 8 untied. Maybe I am stupid, but then, so were the other ten or so people who tried to untie the knot and were unsuccessful.
What are the odds of that many stupid people being in one place?
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johnwesely
Nov 23, 2009, 4:18 PM
Post #62 of 177
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mikebarter387 wrote: johnwesely wrote: angry wrote: Maybe you're just stupid? I've rigged slacklines with figure 8's and got them untied in a few minutes. I've untied double fisherman's knots in webbing that have been fallen on without too much trouble. Come to think of it, I've never had trouble untying a knot. I do use a bowline for stuff like slacklines now though. still, I just don't buy the argument that you won't get your 8 untied. Maybe I am stupid, but then, so were the other ten or so people who tried to untie the knot and were unsuccessful. What are the odds of that many stupid people being in one place?
Pretty low. I am not saying it wasn't an anomaly  .
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knudenoggin
Nov 23, 2009, 5:04 PM
Post #63 of 177
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Urban_Cowboy wrote: You'd still have to tie two knots in my mind since the discussion is about doing the bowline on a bight as a retrace. Just like you must tie a safety knot on a fig-8 follow through, but not a fig-8 tied with a bight. It's about having a back up, if there's a chance a step could have been left out or skipped. When both knots are tied with a bight of rope a step can't be skipped and still resemble a properly tied knot, unlike when done as a retrace. Next...?
Well! That's the first time I've heard that distinction between tying
with/without a "back-up"/"safety" knot. Which boils down to whether
one can insist that knots be tied correctly, or must one retreat to the
lower knowledge threshold of "maybe U can't tie knots, so tie lots"?!
In other knots discussions, I've read numerous people report how their
supposed back-up knots --an Overhand or Dble.Oh. ("Strangle" knot:
= "Fisherman's"/"Half-a-Dbl-Fish."/ ...)-- loosened or came fully untied;
some good that does, other than ensure that one left "a long tail."
The re-threaded Bowline-on-a-Bight gives that 2nd pass of rope through
the tie-in points (which if the end ever loosened out of the knot would
give a conspicuous flapping tail, first pass still holding), leaves the knot
very easy to untie, and --I just discovered-- allows for some rather
neat & sure ways to tie off the end by tucking it out through the "rabbit
hole" -- finishes that not only can increase security but I surmise do
some little bit to bump strength (largely academic in relevance).
*kN*
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gmggg
Nov 23, 2009, 5:17 PM
Post #64 of 177
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mikebarter387 wrote: johnwesely wrote: angry wrote: Maybe you're just stupid? I've rigged slacklines with figure 8's and got them untied in a few minutes. I've untied double fisherman's knots in webbing that have been fallen on without too much trouble. Come to think of it, I've never had trouble untying a knot. I do use a bowline for stuff like slacklines now though. still, I just don't buy the argument that you won't get your 8 untied. Maybe I am stupid, but then, so were the other ten or so people who tried to untie the knot and were unsuccessful. What are the odds of that many stupid people being in one place?
Pretty damn negligible. You use a tripod, right?
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dolphja
Nov 23, 2009, 7:19 PM
Post #65 of 177
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you have a lot more patience than i do!!! i would have pulled out my six shooter and tought that green hand a lesson! my hat is off to you mike!
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healyje
Nov 23, 2009, 7:24 PM
Post #66 of 177
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mikebarter387 wrote: ski.ninja wrote: If I were to tie in with a bowline, that's probably how I'd do it. However, bowlines are tricky to check to see if they're tied properly. For example, that double bowline with the tail running up through the bight again is virtually identical to a single bowline with a Yosemite finish. I've been tying bowlines long enough that I could probably get away with it, but the figure 8 retrace is a lot easier to tie when I'm tired. The benefits might be a knot that's easier to get loose after a big fall, but the complications involved don't make it attractive to me. I think that ski ninja pretty much hit it on the head. If you have been climbing for several years it then you can make a more informed decision on ho you want to die. It really is hard for someone to check your knot and hard to check someone else at a glance. I have never seen anybody walking around with a retied figure 8 tied to their harness which leads me to believe that no matter how tight they get they always manage to get it undone. I have seen some pretty shoddy bowline tie ins over the years. Enough so that I have actuallly picked up my rope and went elsewhere just so that I didn't have to deal ith the aftermath. There is enough stuff that can go wrong in climbing without adding to the formula. Lot of these guys do it to be diffrent and look cool.
Other than the fact that this canKnott be another frigging bowline thread, those are some pretty strongly opinionated posts, and ones that rehash the same unsubstantiated babble about bowlines. Let's keep it simple - figure eights are what they are in climbing due to the relatively simple 'signature' they present for teaching a knot. They represent the lowest common denominator approach to tying in beginners. And while there's nothing wrong with that - all the reasons you give for why bowlines shouldn't be used by competent climbers are essentially complete nonsense and without merit.
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mikebarter387
Nov 23, 2009, 9:31 PM
Post #67 of 177
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healyje wrote: mikebarter387 wrote: ski.ninja wrote: If I were to tie in with a bowline, that's probably how I'd do it. However, bowlines are tricky to check to see if they're tied properly. For example, that double bowline with the tail running up through the bight again is virtually identical to a single bowline with a Yosemite finish. I've been tying bowlines long enough that I could probably get away with it, but the figure 8 retrace is a lot easier to tie when I'm tired. The benefits might be a knot that's easier to get loose after a big fall, but the complications involved don't make it attractive to me. Sorry wrong answer, guess again. I think that ski ninja pretty much hit it on the head. If you have been climbing for several years it then you can make a more informed decision on ho you want to die. It really is hard for someone to check your knot and hard to check someone else at a glance. I have never seen anybody walking around with a retied figure 8 tied to their harness which leads me to believe that no matter how tight they get they always manage to get it undone. I have seen some pretty shoddy bowline tie ins over the years. Enough so that I have actuallly picked up my rope and went elsewhere just so that I didn't have to deal ith the aftermath. There is enough stuff that can go wrong in climbing without adding to the formula. Lot of these guys do it to be diffrent and look cool. Other than the fact that this canKnott be another frigging bowline thread, those are some pretty strongly opinionated posts, and ones that rehash the same unsubstantiated babble about bowlines. Let's keep it simple - figure eights are what they are in climbing due to the relatively simple 'signature' they present for teaching a knot. They represent the lowest common denominator approach to tying in beginners. And while there's nothing wrong with that - all the reasons you give for why bowlines shouldn't be used by competent climbers are essentially complete nonsense and without merit.
You waded through all those posts to come up with the wrong answer. Man, sucks to be you!
(This post was edited by mikebarter387 on Nov 23, 2009, 9:36 PM)
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hafilax
Nov 23, 2009, 9:48 PM
Post #68 of 177
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I'll tell you how to check a bowline: Pull on it; if it falls apart it wasn't tied properly. Same way you check if a lock assist device is fed properly or if a biner is locked by squeezing the gate.
I've used bowlines for the last 30 years sailing and have never seen one come apart.
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mikebarter387
Nov 23, 2009, 10:01 PM
Post #69 of 177
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hafilax wrote: I'll tell you how to check a bowline: Pull on it; if it falls apart it wasn't tied properly. Same way you check if a lock assist device is fed properly or if a biner is locked by squeezing the gate. I've used bowlines for the last 30 years sailing and have never seen one come apart.
You waded through all those posts to come up with the wrong answer. Man, sucks to be you!
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hafilax
Nov 23, 2009, 10:04 PM
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mikebarter387 wrote: hafilax wrote: I'll tell you how to check a bowline: Pull on it; if it falls apart it wasn't tied properly. Same way you check if a lock assist device is fed properly or if a biner is locked by squeezing the gate. I've used bowlines for the last 30 years sailing and have never seen one come apart. You waded through all those posts to come up with the wrong answer. Man, sucks to be you!
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moose_droppings
Nov 23, 2009, 10:13 PM
Post #71 of 177
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I think his emphysema is making him delirious.
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mikebarter387
Nov 23, 2009, 10:27 PM
Post #72 of 177
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moose_droppings wrote: I think his emphysema is making him delirious.
I agree with you! These guys in all seriousness should seek out medical attention.
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healyje
Nov 23, 2009, 10:36 PM
Post #73 of 177
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mikebarter387 wrote: healyje wrote: mikebarter387 wrote: ski.ninja wrote: If I were to tie in with a bowline, that's probably how I'd do it. However, bowlines are tricky to check to see if they're tied properly. For example, that double bowline with the tail running up through the bight again is virtually identical to a single bowline with a Yosemite finish. I've been tying bowlines long enough that I could probably get away with it, but the figure 8 retrace is a lot easier to tie when I'm tired. The benefits might be a knot that's easier to get loose after a big fall, but the complications involved don't make it attractive to me. Sorry wrong answer, guess again. I think that ski ninja pretty much hit it on the head. If you have been climbing for several years it then you can make a more informed decision on ho you want to die. It really is hard for someone to check your knot and hard to check someone else at a glance. I have never seen anybody walking around with a retied figure 8 tied to their harness which leads me to believe that no matter how tight they get they always manage to get it undone. I have seen some pretty shoddy bowline tie ins over the years. Enough so that I have actuallly picked up my rope and went elsewhere just so that I didn't have to deal ith the aftermath. There is enough stuff that can go wrong in climbing without adding to the formula. Lot of these guys do it to be diffrent and look cool. Other than the fact that this canKnott be another frigging bowline thread, those are some pretty strongly opinionated posts, and ones that rehash the same unsubstantiated babble about bowlines. Let's keep it simple - figure eights are what they are in climbing due to the relatively simple 'signature' they present for teaching a knot. They represent the lowest common denominator approach to tying in beginners. And while there's nothing wrong with that - all the reasons you give for why bowlines shouldn't be used by competent climbers are essentially complete nonsense and without merit. You waded through all those posts to come up with the wrong answer. Man, sucks to be you!
Actually it doesn't, particularly given I not only don't have "the wrong answer", but I didn't have to read any posts at all or "come up" with the correct one - that you're either hopelessly clueless about bowlines, or you just delight in spewing garbage. It always amazes me when folks deem themselves 'experts' and take to the air proseltizing with flat-out inaccurate statements and conclusions.
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Urban_Cowboy
Nov 23, 2009, 10:43 PM
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knudenoggin wrote: Urban_Cowboy wrote: You'd still have to tie two knots in my mind since the discussion is about doing the bowline on a bight as a retrace. Just like you must tie a safety knot on a fig-8 follow through, but not a fig-8 tied with a bight. It's about having a back up, if there's a chance a step could have been left out or skipped. When both knots are tied with a bight of rope a step can't be skipped and still resemble a properly tied knot, unlike when done as a retrace. Next...? Well! That's the first time I've heard that distinction between tying with/without a "back-up"/"safety" knot. Which boils down to whether one can insist that knots be tied correctly, or must one retreat to the lower knowledge threshold of "maybe U can't tie knots, so tie lots"?! 
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johnwesely
Nov 23, 2009, 11:17 PM
Post #75 of 177
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Urban_Cowboy wrote: Commenting, "not being able to tie knots, so tie lots" is funny though...just like the joke about soldering, "bigger the glob, better the job". (Both are wrong, BTW, for those that don't get it).
Maybe in Soldering, but I am a firm believer in big globs.
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