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jonathan.gaillard
May 29, 2010, 5:01 AM
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I am a bit fed up with the grigri for solo top roping because I tend to like to weight the end of the rope so that it is lightly weighted but literally hanging above the ground (so I can move around and such and basically no fall distance). But with the grigri I think the edge where the anchor rope comes out seems to make the system hold tight (dont want to destroy the grigri with the death mod).
Does the soloaid have this problem or is it just as easy to move up the rope with it loosely connected at the bottom as it is with it weighted with a hanging weight at the bottom?
Thanks for the help !!!
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milesenoell
May 29, 2010, 6:21 AM
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I don't have any personal experience with the Wren Soloaid, but my understanding is that it's for lead solo, not TR solo. For regular TR soloing, most other styles of ascender feed more easily than a gri-gri. Mini-traxions are popular. Some people double up and use two devices together. You can use a chest harness to keep the ascender high on the rope, but the "falls" are so short I've never bothered. You can make your system redundant by clipping into cloves or knotted bights on the other strand of rope.
It still helps to lightly weight the bottom of the rope when using an ascender, but they generally feed so smoothly it doesn't take much. I use a nalgene.
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milesenoell
May 29, 2010, 6:25 AM
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Yeah, I just looked at the soloaid on Wren's site and it's definitely for lead solo. As in backpack full of rope that feeds as you climb. I've still yet to try it (although I've been meaning to to for a while), but there are folks on here who have systems worked out.
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JimTitt
May 29, 2010, 5:41 PM
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Get a shunt or mod the grigri, both work.
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jonathan.gaillard
May 29, 2010, 7:08 PM
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Thanks guys, I think i'll go the route of the petzl microcender or rescucender and just use a chest harness to keep the biner up.
Whats the easiest way to rappel down since these don't have a handle, considering the weight on the end of the rope..?
From what I've read now the rescucender is probably the best for the rope but what kind of fall are these things rated for? Are there any devices that are actually designed for solo top rope and not lead?
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milesenoell
May 29, 2010, 7:31 PM
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jonathan.gaillard wrote: Thanks guys, I think i'll go the route of the petzl microcender or rescucender and just use a chest harness to keep the biner up. Whats the easiest way to rappel down since these don't have a handle, considering the weight on the end of the rope..? From what I've read now the rescucender is probably the best for the rope but what kind of fall are these things rated for? Are there any devices that are actually designed for solo top rope and not lead?
It's been a few years since I looked, but it used to be that most ascenders weren't "supposed" to be used for TR soloing. The safety record has been great though, and it seems that the super short falls just aren't an issue for any of the devices commonly used.
You have a choice of cam styles, I use a toothed cam, but people used to be worried that the teeth could damage your rope (either prick at the sheath or poke through and wear the core strands) but it doesn't seem to really be happening (at least to anybody I've heard from). The ridged cam on the micro- and rescue-scenders are supposed to slip a little under high load and be less likely to sheath your rope, but I can't imagine how you'd fall that hard on TR to begin with.
I don't mean to sound like I'm suggesting what you should do, but I hove found a chest harness to just be totally unneccessary. Clipping the ascender to a belay loop limits falls to basically twice the length of your biner (as it reorients from pointing down to pointing up) plus rope stretch. If you know you are about to fall you can even just grab the ascender and slide it up the last eight inches or so manually. Once you feel the ascender catch you a couple times you will likely come to trust it a lot. The falls are just so short as to not really require much trust in the system.
To rap, I just switch over to an ATC. You can get really fast at switching, but the funny part is that running laps on TR solo you get to appreciate the lull at the end since you never stop climbing to belay for someone else.
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northfacejmb
May 29, 2010, 8:42 PM
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Look at the Petzl Basic. I haven't used one, but i'm pretty sure it is rated for TR solo and it looks like it's designed almost exactly like a normal ascender.
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jonathan.gaillard
May 29, 2010, 9:02 PM
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Well spoken :) Thanks for the help, you speak from experience it seems :)
Most of my routes are pretty hard in that I like to really work routes out by myself, so it will almost always be a hanging end to the route. Have any suggestion to an easy way to transition? Since the rope runs straight through the ascender can you stick in your belay device below it?
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milesenoell
May 30, 2010, 6:45 AM
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jonathan.gaillard wrote: Well spoken :) Thanks for the help, you speak from experience it seems :) Most of my routes are pretty hard in that I like to really work routes out by myself, so it will almost always be a hanging end to the route. Have any suggestion to an easy way to transition? Since the rope runs straight through the ascender can you stick in your belay device below it?
Exactly. You'll still need to get the weight off the ascender to disengage the cam, but you can batman it if necessary.
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jaablink
May 30, 2010, 11:30 AM
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Many climbers I know as well as myself use the mini traxion weighted with a 1 to 2 lbs sash weight . I have my harness setup with an extended belay loop and shelf in the middle ,made with a double length nylon runner and a prussic cord for an auto block attached to the leg loop. If you are hanging and want to come back to the ground, you can setup a prussic above the devise and clip in to it. Setup the atc below the devise clipping it to the shelf and securing the auto block, then move the prussic up to un-weight the devise so you can remove it from the line, weight your atc , remove the top prussic and descend…
You should also consider making your system redundant. One device will probably not fail with the small forces generated by a top rope fall, but you only need it to fail once….
If you end up trying this , it may be a good idea to practice on some low angle easy climb until you understand the system.
If you have any questions or are unclear about anything , shoot me a pm and I will get back 2u…
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jonathan.gaillard
May 31, 2010, 4:11 AM
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Ok I think I understand the transition with ease pretty well. But what would you guys recommend to be the nicest to the rope, and the strongest in terms of shock load. Rescucender or the wild country ropeman MKII?
Can't believe I was going about this without an ascender, I should have realised, pretty dumb really :D
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cornstateclimber
May 31, 2010, 5:20 AM
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ive been using the rescuescender for years now with no complaints whatsoever. easy on the rope, easy to use and easy to unload to rapell back down or top out and exit the route. when i set the rope just have a spot to clip near the top with a pas and then unwieght the rescuescender to release it and hook up rapell device to go back down or just practice the old lost art of down climbing while moving the ascender back down too! thats always a great woorkout! it helps to carry a prusik to unwieght the device too if you find yourself stuck mid route!
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jaablink
May 31, 2010, 11:49 AM
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Off the bat I can tell you that the MK2 is not designed for rope soloing even though its axel is rated to something like 10kn , I use one as a backup on a separate thin line when doing full rope length rope solos . I have never used the rescuesender , but the design looks good and it does say it is designed to limit rope damage in event of shock loads. Again I use the minitraxion , now for 3 years on a sterling marathon series line that I dedicated for traxion use with no problems. I project steep demanding climbs and have taken many fall in the 3 years, and the ropes sheath has no damage. In any event , as long as you have a good rig, a general understanding of the mechanics, use common sense, and the climb is setup right you should not have any problems with shock loading while toprope soloing. To give you an idea, a toprope fall will generally generate a .2ish KN load.
Whatever you use remember to have it weighted adequately, be sure the weight cant get hung up on anything and hangs free above the ground and any ledges , as not to allow slack to build up in the system..
Use your head out there and anticipate things before they become problems.…
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jonathan.gaillard
May 31, 2010, 1:52 PM
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Sold! Thanks for the help guys, I just ordered a rescucender, we will see how it goes :) If only there were some crags around here and I didn't always have to drive 6 hours everywhere! Take it easy, stay safe!
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cornstateclimber
May 31, 2010, 2:55 PM
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omg! you must live in illinois! good luck you made right choice
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dugl33
May 31, 2010, 4:54 PM
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jaablink wrote: Off the bat I can tell you that the MK2 is not designed for rope soloing even though its axel is rated to something like 10kn , I use one as a backup on a separate thin line when doing full rope length rope solos . I have never used the rescuesender , but the design looks good and it does say it is designed to limit rope damage in event of shock loads. Again I use the minitraxion , now for 3 years on a sterling marathon series line that I dedicated for traxion use with no problems. I project steep demanding climbs and have taken many fall in the 3 years, and the ropes sheath has no damage. In any event , as long as you have a good rig, a general understanding of the mechanics, use common sense, and the climb is setup right you should not have any problems with shock loading while toprope soloing. To give you an idea, a toprope fall will generally generate a .2ish KN load. Whatever you use remember to have it weighted adequately, be sure the weight cant get hung up on anything and hangs free above the ground and any ledges , as not to allow slack to build up in the system.. Use your head out there and anticipate things before they become problems.…
Do you really mean to say two tenths of a KN? This would be about 45 lbs of force.
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jaablink
May 31, 2010, 5:49 PM
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You do calc the weight of the climber. How much force do you generate on a toprope fall?
(This post was edited by jaablink on May 31, 2010, 6:07 PM)
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jonathan.gaillard
Jun 1, 2010, 8:19 PM
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hehe I was wondering the same thing dugl33 :D
Sadly cornstateclimber its Virginia !
So before I head out with my new fangled device. What is the easiest way to transition to rappel mid route on something overhanging, just hanging on the ascender?
perhaps the ascender on a short sling just long enough to be able to be at chest height, held up by chest harness, leaving enough room below to stick in the atc or grigri for lowering? Would there be enough room? Any other suggestions?
I know I can stick a prusik above the device and then put the atc in but I am looking for something that is fast for working routes where I might need to lower mid route often on steep stuff. So something preriged
(This post was edited by jonathan.gaillard on Jun 1, 2010, 8:52 PM)
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chadnsc
Jun 1, 2010, 8:42 PM
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jaablink wrote: You do calc the weight of the climber. How much force do you generate on a toprope fall?
A 160 pound climber with 30 feet of rope out taking a 6" fall on tope rope will generate around 1.5 Kn when he falls.
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ptlong
Jun 1, 2010, 8:59 PM
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chadnsc wrote: jaablink wrote: You do calc the weight of the climber. How much force do you generate on a toprope fall? A 160 pound climber with 30 feet of rope out taking a 6" fall on tope rope will generate around 1.5 Kn when he falls.
Exactly, it's about twice the climber's weight.
By the way, you can use a Solo Aid for top roping (the manufacturer recommends a chest harness). But it's a device designed for aid climbing and doesn't self-feed whether for lead or toprope.
Lots of devices are better including most ascenders as well as the popular mini traxion (and pro too). Petzl gives their blessing on use of these for TR solo. I prefer using two because failure can and has occurred.
How do you switch to rappel if free hanging? Good question. A handled ascender with an adjustable daisy and maybe a few slings for a footloop would make it easy. But there's probably a more clever way.
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milesenoell
Jun 1, 2010, 9:00 PM
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jonathan.gaillard wrote: hehe I was wondering the same thing dugl33 :D Sadly cornstateclimber its Virginia ! So before I head out with my new fangled device. What is the easiest way to transition to rappel mid route on something overhanging, just hanging on the ascender? perhaps the ascender on a short sling just long enough to be able to be at chest height, held up by chest harness, leaving enough room below to stick in the atc or grigri for lowering? Would there be enough room? Any other suggestions?
the problem isn't in having room to put the ATC in (you can pull as much slack in as you want so there's always plenty of room for the ATC), it's getting the ascender unwieghted and off the rope. For that you will want a prussik or other comparable item to get your weight onto the rope ABOVE your ascender. It can be also be done in other ways, but a prussik is generally a safe way to do things. (If you just put the ATC in and release the cam, the ascender jams against the ATC). The other way I have done it (warning: I am about to describe a dangerous method that should not be used) is to put the ATC in, wrap a leg a couple times, grab the rope and batman up a foot, and remove the locking biner that connects me to the ascender (leaving it hanging on the rope by the cam), then lower my weight onto the ATC. Just grab the ascender off the rope and rap down.
*Just to be clear, I only described this method because it is a way to back off a route without any extra gear. Clipping a knotted bight would be a good way to increase the safety margin. That said, a prussik is a superior option.
(This post was edited by milesenoell on Jun 2, 2010, 12:30 AM)
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suprasoup
Jun 1, 2010, 9:46 PM
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Truly the Prussik above your device is the fastest (safest) option. The prussik can be pre rigged above your device and as long as it's tied loosely and with enough slack should not interfere with the Rescucenders operation. Once you're ready to rappel, weight your rescucender and slide the prussik above you until it becomes taut and is supporting your weight. Attach your atc at this point. Now you're supported by the prussik as your primary and the atc as your back up. You can then remove the rescucender from the system. Take up all the slack from the atc and then yard up until the atc is taking all your weight. The prussik is now unweighted. Wrap the rope around your leg a couple of times. Loosen the prussik above you and now you're ready to rap. Unravel the rope around your leg and rap away.
It's best to learn these things while your close to the ground. And bear in mind that no matter how quickly you can go from climbing to rappel it's never as quick as a second lowering you. So take your time, do it right and don't die.
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jonathan.gaillard
Jun 2, 2010, 2:28 PM
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I think this method sounds good. :) And then the prusik is there as a rappel backup. And it sounds fast enough with it on the line already.
No worries I won't die:)But I can't rule out a broken foot or something!
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milesenoell
Jun 2, 2010, 10:47 PM
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By the way, your ascender (well, my ascender anyway) will push a prussik up the line with no tending. I used a prussik as a backup for a while, but after some time I just got confident in the system and stopped using it. Also, a prussik won't always catch, so it's an unreliable backup.
SS makes a good point: Rappelling is dangerous. More so than the majority of the time spent climbing. Give it all the respect it deserves.
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Costa
Jun 3, 2010, 10:55 AM
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a shunt is a good alternative in replacing the prussik if you want something faster but im assuming seeing your looking for rope solo devices you dont have one of these.
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