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devkrev
Jun 24, 2011, 5:58 PM
Post #26 of 38
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I'm sure the vast majority of people climbing at the gunks feel like they are closer to dying on the fourth class downclimb at the Uberfall than rapping at the bevy of bolted and non-bolted stations around the cliffs.
The first pitch of a lot of routes are the "money pitch" at the Gunks, so it really doesn't make sense to continue to the top of the cliff for a lot of folks. And the routes that are quality all the way to the top tend to have bolted stations close by as well. And you can't expect me to leave Fido down there all by himself right?
It also probably has to do a lot with the half a rope length sport climbing / gym climbing attitude. I've heard back in the day, a route wasn't a route unless it went all the way to the top. That attitude doesn't really exist either.
That being said, I'd rather walk than rap. But then again, I've got that Uberfall down climb pretty wired.
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shimanilami
Jun 24, 2011, 6:38 PM
Post #27 of 38
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caughtinside wrote: Convenience is one of the best parts of a rap for sure. Just not having to carry shoes for a descent is huge! If you're talking about 3 pitches or less, a rap is a huge convenience. You no longer need to carry any of the stuff that the n00bs load in those giant packs and labor under on their way to the top. This does assume a well established rap though, where hangups are unlikely, and any swinging around to get to the next station non-existent. Cragging style rap as opposed to alpine style raps. Convenience rapping is great. More enjoyable climb because you aren't toting extra crap, and can be faster, resulting in more time to climb.
Carrying a second rope can be an inconvenience, too!
Whatever. It's silly to make generalizations about something that is so situation dependent.
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rgold
Jun 24, 2011, 6:41 PM
Post #28 of 38
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devkrev wrote: I'm sure the vast majority of people climbing at the gunks feel like they are closer to dying on the fourth class downclimb at the Uberfall than rapping at the bevy of bolted and non-bolted stations around the cliffs.
Good point. As climbing develops and expands, there is a subset of specialized climbers who can climb hard but who are neither competent nor comfortable on easy ground.
devkrev wrote: The first pitch of a lot of routes are the "money pitch" at the Gunks, so it really doesn't make sense to continue to the top of the cliff for a lot of folks.
I think you are right about this too, although I suspect the point you mention next is the more relevant one. Still, it is hard to know what role convenience plays in the decision. If going to the top introduces any uncertainty (inconvenience) into the descent process, it seems as if a lot of folks will rap before the end of the climb and my original point is still valid.
There are also a number of examples of perfectly good second or third pitches that are "going to waste" because a rap anchor signals to the party that the climb is "over."
In any case, I think for the purposes of discussing rapping versus walking off, the discussion ought to be limited to parties who, for whatever reason, are on the top and so are actually in a position to choose between the two alternatives.
devkrev wrote: And the routes that are quality all the way to the top tend to have bolted stations close by as well. And you can't expect me to leave Fido down there all by himself right?
When there aren't bolted raps right next door, I think convenience concerns still rule and the party raps before the top. Birdland is a good example of this. As for leaving dogs tied up at the base---ugh, don't get me started...
devkrev wrote: It also probably has to do a lot with the half a rope length sport climbing / gym climbing attitude. I've heard back in the day, a route wasn't a route unless it went all the way to the top. That attitude doesn't really exist either.
I think Williams may have taken that position in one of his earlier guidebooks and it wouldn't be a surprise if Gran did too. People started avoiding offensive easy top pitches a very long time ago, well before sport climbing, but no doubt the sport perspective has strengthened the idea.
devkrev wrote: That being said, I'd rather walk than rap. But then again, I've got that Uberfall down climb pretty wired.
There was a time when a first-time visitor to the Gunks would climb up the Uberfall and then back down it so as to know what to do and where to go. Those days are long gone...
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cracklover
Jun 24, 2011, 7:14 PM
Post #29 of 38
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rgold wrote: cracklover wrote: Really? That's hard to believe. Certainly there are areas in the Trapps where I'm sure that's so... ...which means it isn't at all hard to believe...
The part of your statement that was hard to believe was that "almost no one walk{s} back from any climb". It makes perfect sense to me that a party on High E would walk 10 yards and rap down the stations there. But very little sense that a party on Disneyland would do the same thing. I don't even know how far you'd have to walk from the top of Disneyland to find a rap station. Maybe as far as it would take to walk back to your pack!
In reply to: cracklover wrote: ...but even in the Nears? I pretty much always walk off if I'm doing something within the first 80 routes in the Nears. Well, we'd have to do a survey to know for sure about the Nears. I see a lot of folks coming down the Fat City and Alphonse raps, but have no way to know what fraction of the total population is represented. I too mostly walk back in the Nears. I have never met another party walking back ever, and I very rarely see anyone at the bottom who seems to be doing that. But these are impressions, not facts.
Okay, well your impressions are certainly based on more than mine. Still seems very odd. IME, The Nears simply wasn't well set up for rapping, and many of the classic lines are near the north end.
In reply to: I'd say there's enough rapping going on at the North edge of the Nears, where walking back is very competitive in terms of convenience, to still make my point.
I don't doubt your overall point, that things have changed. I'm just surprised to hear how much.
When i frequented the Gunks, seemed like most people walked off from the north end of the Nears, and from the climbs around the Uberfall and the South end. I guess things have shifted a lot even just in the last few years.
GO
(This post was edited by cracklover on Jun 24, 2011, 7:16 PM)
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rgold
Jun 24, 2011, 7:46 PM
Post #30 of 38
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Gabe, I don't know that things have changed that much. In order for my point to be valid, which I think it is beyond contention as Caughtinside explains, there has to be a "convenience differential" between walking off and rapping. There is no such differential on Disneyland, for example, and very little for the region of the Near Trapps you mentioned, which still does not stop people from using the established stations at Fat City and Alphonse.
So maybe I should have specified the Trapps where the convenience differential is more substantial?
I think your point about people walking back from climbs near the Uberfall is much less accurate, so if you were right about that then perhaps things have changed there. There is now a set of cables on a tree at the top of Betty, to give an example of a walk-off that might well be as fast if not faster than rapping.
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blueeyedclimber
Jun 24, 2011, 8:04 PM
Post #31 of 38
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rgold wrote: So maybe I should have specified the Trapps where the convenience differential is more substantial?
I don't see that convenience as a bad thing. Especially in an area like the Gunks. I am basically a weekend warrior who gets to the Gunks as much as he can. If rapping allows me to get in a couple extra climbs, then I would rather rap. There is no doubt that you are assuming more risk (most of the time), but we all assume risk when we climb.
As far as the Nears, if I am doing something at the North End, then I walk off. Same for Uberfall area.
Josh
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onrockandice
Jun 24, 2011, 8:53 PM
Post #32 of 38
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Now that gives me some pause for serious thought and reflection. Maybe time to step back and think this through some more.
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onrockandice
Jun 24, 2011, 9:03 PM
Post #33 of 38
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Got a lot out of this. Now I'm off to go climbing. Well bouldering... not really climbing if you ask me... more like *training* for climbing. heheheh talk about holy war... I think I just screamed "rape" in the middle of a church service...
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rangerrob
Jun 25, 2011, 3:06 AM
Post #34 of 38
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Rgold brought up a good point about the convenience rap anchors and people avoiding upper pitches....a lot of them quality...and a lot of them you can't really claim an ascent of the route without. This is particularly true in the Gunks. Birdland is a perfect example. I'd wager for every ten people who lead the first pitch, one leads the second. And the second is every bit as exciting and cruxy as the first, with very different climbing on it.
You haven't really done Feast of Fools if you haven't led the second pitch. How many of you folks have done the last pitch? Not stellar 5.10 climbing, but still a little sting in the tail after two pitches of 5.10.
MF has a great 5.9 second pitch, that is infrequently done.
Boldville's second pitch is two grades easier than the first, but a full two grades of pucker factor more than the first!
I can go on and on, but the point is made. Convenience rap anchors have trned a lot of people into single pitch lower off junkies.
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blueeyedclimber
Jun 25, 2011, 4:42 AM
Post #35 of 38
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rangerrob wrote: Rgold brought up a good point about the convenience rap anchors and people avoiding upper pitches....a lot of them quality...and a lot of them you can't really claim an ascent of the route without. This is particularly true in the Gunks. Birdland is a perfect example. I'd wager for every ten people who lead the first pitch, one leads the second. And the second is every bit as exciting and cruxy as the first, with very different climbing on it. You haven't really done Feast of Fools if you haven't led the second pitch. How many of you folks have done the last pitch? Not stellar 5.10 climbing, but still a little sting in the tail after two pitches of 5.10. MF has a great 5.9 second pitch, that is infrequently done. Boldville's second pitch is two grades easier than the first, but a full two grades of pucker factor more than the first! I can go on and on, but the point is made. Convenience rap anchors have trned a lot of people into single pitch lower off junkies.
Since we were talking about the choice between walking off or rapping, I assumed he was talking about rap anchors at the top, not after the first pitch.
Btw, I have done all those upper pitches you just mentioned with the exception on the second pitch of Boldville. If I am doing a route for the first time, it's not done unless I go to the top 
Josh
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sp115
Jun 25, 2011, 11:35 AM
Post #36 of 38
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rgold wrote: There has been almost a complete conversion, from almost everyone walking back from every climb to almost no one walking back from any climb.
That has been my experience as well. I have never rapped in the Nears and never shared the walk-off with anyone, ever.
I also almost always choose the walk-off in the Trapps unless I'm well down the cliff and plan on staying in the area.
The over-cliff trail at the Gunks is so beautiful that it's really a shame that more people don't take advantage of it. But then again it's not like I'm complaining: I never have to wait at a crowded rap station, and I have the entire top of the cliff to myself.
(This post was edited by sp115 on Jun 25, 2011, 11:38 AM)
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moose_droppings
Jun 25, 2011, 4:43 PM
Post #37 of 38
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When possible, I prefer the walk off.
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j_ung
Jun 25, 2011, 9:43 PM
Post #38 of 38
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rangerrob wrote: Rgold brought up a good point about the convenience rap anchors and people avoiding upper pitches....a lot of them quality...and a lot of them you can't really claim an ascent of the route without. This is particularly true in the Gunks. Birdland is a perfect example. I'd wager for every ten people who lead the first pitch, one leads the second. And the second is every bit as exciting and cruxy as the first, with very different climbing on it. You haven't really done Feast of Fools if you haven't led the second pitch. How many of you folks have done the last pitch? Not stellar 5.10 climbing, but still a little sting in the tail after two pitches of 5.10. MF has a great 5.9 second pitch, that is infrequently done. Boldville's second pitch is two grades easier than the first, but a full two grades of pucker factor more than the first! I can go on and on, but the point is made. Convenience rap anchors have trned a lot of people into single pitch lower off junkies.
All the more chalkless pitches for the rest of us! 
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