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gauncey14
Oct 10, 2011, 5:03 PM
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marc801
Oct 10, 2011, 5:11 PM
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gauncey14 wrote: Hi, I'm wondering about methods for climbing with people who either can't lead, or aren't comfortable leading/cleaning a route. I'd like to take someone out climbing who I'm afraid will not be comfortable with cleaning the anchors. Is it feasible to simply lead a climb, and then anchor into the anchors up top, and then belay them from there? Then lower them, when they finish the route, and then clean the route yourself? I hope I'm being clear enough. The main thing I want to be able to do is be efficient while I'm out. Sure, I could lead it for the climber, then let them climb it on top rope, unclipping the rope as they climb up, and then climb it again and clean it. I'm going to try and make the person just learn how to clean the anchors consider it is not hard, but if they're gonna be a sissy about it, what's the best way to handle this apart from me climbing the route twice? If there is a thread with this info already, I'd love just a quick link. I wasn't sure how to search it though Many thanks, Michael
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TarHeelEMT
Oct 10, 2011, 5:15 PM
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marc801 wrote: If they can't learn the absolute basics of climbing, which includes cleaning anchors, then they should stick to top roping or quit. Any of your other, ahem, "solutions", are just plain ridiculous. (Unless of course she's *really* cute and you have motives beyond climbing!)
Are you kidding?
I do this:
In reply to: Sure, I could lead it for the climber, then let them climb it on top rope, unclipping the rope as they climb up, and then climb it again and clean it.
almost every time I take people out who have never climbed before.
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marc801
Oct 10, 2011, 5:22 PM
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TarHeelEMT wrote: I do this: In reply to: Sure, I could lead it for the climber, then let them climb it on top rope, unclipping the rope as they climb up, and then climb it again and clean it. almost every time I take people out who have never climbed before.
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lena_chita
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Oct 10, 2011, 5:24 PM
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When you take new climbers out, you throw your notions of efficiency out of the window, and you plan for a mellow day of climbing. Including, yes, the probability of climbing every route twice.
While it is possible to belay hanging from the anchors, it would not really save you much time in a typical single-pitch sport climbing scenario, you'll have a lot of rope to stack up there, and hanging belay is not that comfortable, especially if your climber is going to be struggling. I am not going to go into redirect vs. belay from the anchors here... if you are asking, you shouldn't be doing this.
The other possibility, and very likely one, at a busy sport climbing area with moderate grades (which sounds like your probable destination of choice) would be to tell the next group waiting in line for your group to finish climbing that they are welcome to climb on your draws, as long as they swap the draws for their own on their first go. They will most likely agree to it happily, because it would mean that they will get to climb sooner, and that would solve your problem of climbing the same route twice.
Teaching the other climbers how to do a toprope transfer is indeed not difficult, but, quite honestly, from your question I get a distinct impression that you yourself are a n00b, or you wouldn't be asking this, so maybe you shouldn't be the one taking people out or teaching them...
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gauncey14
Oct 10, 2011, 5:35 PM
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Yeah, I'm still fairly new to climbing outside, but I know how to do everything, just haven't been out yet where I'm the most knowledgeable person. I was just wondering if I was missing something because when I was out this weekend I saw someone following a route, obviously being belayed from the top, but I'm pretty sure it was a single pitch. I didn't really look hard to see what was going on, but I just wanted to see if hanging belay wasn't out of the question I guess. It appears I will just be climbing the route twice. I guess it's not a big deal anyways considering they're gonna be 5.8/9's. Thanks for the input.
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lena_chita
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Oct 10, 2011, 5:46 PM
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I can't know what you saw, but if a route tops out, or if the pitch is longer than half of the rope length, then belaying from the top is nothing unusual, especially if there is an easy way to walk off after everyone finishes climbing.
I was responding more to your idea of hanging on the anchors of a typical single-pitch sport route to belay. That would be too much hassle, and pretty much everyone I know would opt for climbing the route twice instead of hanging on the anchors.
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marc801
Oct 10, 2011, 5:46 PM
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gauncey14 wrote: It appears I will just be climbing the route twice. I guess it's not a big deal anyways considering they're gonna be 5.8/9's.
As far as cleaning sport anchors, if it's a pair of chains, it's usually pretty easy to rig it so that it's pre-threaded to lower the second, yet the rope is still through your draws while they are climbing (minimizing TR wear on the chains). If you don't know how to do this, again, maybe you shouldn't be the one instructing.
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tH1e-swiN1e
Oct 10, 2011, 6:14 PM
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Cleaning can be really dangerous. You shouldnt just show someone how to do it and then send them up to clean, someone should be watching them up top too. Man up and climb it twice, it'll be good for you.
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marc801
Oct 10, 2011, 6:41 PM
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tH1e-swiN1e wrote: Cleaning can be really dangerous. You shouldnt just show someone how to do it and then send them up to clean, someone should be watching them up top too.
One of the local cliffs here that has a number of 5.easy sport routes also has a pair of bolts about 7' above the ground, expressly for teaching the technique.
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ladyscarlett
Oct 10, 2011, 6:43 PM
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tH1e-swiN1e wrote: Cleaning can be really dangerous. You shouldnt just show someone how to do it and then send them up to clean, someone should be watching them up top too.
Could you go into a little more detail? Having gone through this exact process many times, I don't quite see how cleaning can be 'really' dangerous given that the second is essentially on top rope...
Cheers
LS
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csproul
Oct 10, 2011, 6:54 PM
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ladyscarlett wrote: tH1e-swiN1e wrote: Cleaning can be really dangerous. You shouldnt just show someone how to do it and then send them up to clean, someone should be watching them up top too. Could you go into a little more detail? Having gone through this exact process many times, I don't quite see how cleaning can be 'really' dangerous given that the second is essentially on top rope... Cheers LS
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ladyscarlett
Oct 10, 2011, 7:19 PM
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Ah right....
Battling sickness and my brain is working slower than usual.
Also, the idea of doing more than single pitch/TR with a total n00b didn't quite register cause I'm not good enough to even consider it...
Cheers
ls
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markc
Oct 10, 2011, 7:32 PM
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lena_chita wrote: When you take new climbers out, you throw your notions of efficiency out of the window, and you plan for a mellow day of climbing. Including, yes, the probability of climbing every route twice.
I agree with this. If I'm taking someone new, or even just new to the outdoors, I'm expecting them to take a while, struggle with finding holds and general route-finding, etc. I'm going to be climbing routes that are easy for me to make sure they're not flailing from the start. If I get to climb each route twice, I'll consider it welcome.
That's also a situation where I find a slingshot belay more comfortable than belaying from the top. This person may need some coaching, time to recover on the route, etc. That sounds less than ideal for belaying from above.
For a really new climber, I'd prefer to have another experienced climber along. One experienced person can lead and rig a toprope, the middle person can climb, and the third can either pull rope and lead or just TR. This has the added benefit of keeping an experienced person with the new belayer.
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bearbreeder
Oct 10, 2011, 7:42 PM
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just climb it twice ... if its that easy it allows you to get more climbing in anyways
plus you impress that cute gurl (she is a cute gurl right or why else would ya do it  ) with yr stamina
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cracklover
Oct 10, 2011, 8:39 PM
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marc801 wrote: TarHeelEMT wrote: I do this: In reply to: Sure, I could lead it for the climber, then let them climb it on top rope, unclipping the rope as they climb up, and then climb it again and clean it. almost every time I take people out who have never climbed before. We disagree then. Every time I take people out who have never climbed before, they get to do all the tasks necessary, including cleaning pro and anchors. That would include cleaning the anchors on a sport route and rethreading for lower (if they demonstrate the proper level of competence).
Hmmm...
It seems to me that properly and safely teaching someone to clean the anchors on a sport route (I don't know why we're all assuming that it is a sport route, since the OP didn't say so, but let's assume that is what he meant) will eat up as much if not more of your day as just cleaning the route yourself.
So let the "guide for the day" decide which he'd rather do.
If I were in the OP's position, I would make that choice based on what I saw from the n00b. It would be pretty clear, pretty quickly, if the n00b was excited to learn everything possible, and was hooked on climbing. In that case, I would take the time to teach her to clean and lower. If the n00b was just having fun and being kind of a child about it, just wanting to be entertained, I'd quickly clean the routes myself. And if the n00b seemed like she was just not that into climbing, again, I'd just clean the routes myself.
But the OP is not me. The OP sounds like he's a n00b himself. In his case, the OP should be cleaning the routes. I really don't like the idea of someone who's only just barely learned a technique himself trying to coach an even n00bier person through a somewhat tricky process that can go very wrong very fast.
Cheers,
GO
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chadnsc
Oct 10, 2011, 9:18 PM
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marc801 wrote: TarHeelEMT wrote: I do this: In reply to: Sure, I could lead it for the climber, then let them climb it on top rope, unclipping the rope as they climb up, and then climb it again and clean it. almost every time I take people out who have never climbed before. We disagree then. Every time I take people out who have never climbed before, they get to do all the tasks necessary, including cleaning pro and anchors. That would include cleaning the anchors on a sport route and rethreading for lower (if they demonstrate the proper level of competence).
So you have these people who have never climbed before belay you then as well; or do you have another person there to give you a belay?
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marc801
Oct 10, 2011, 9:33 PM
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chadnsc wrote: marc801 wrote: TarHeelEMT wrote: I do this: In reply to: Sure, I could lead it for the climber, then let them climb it on top rope, unclipping the rope as they climb up, and then climb it again and clean it. almost every time I take people out who have never climbed before. We disagree then. Every time I take people out who have never climbed before, they get to do all the tasks necessary, including cleaning pro and anchors. That would include cleaning the anchors on a sport route and rethreading for lower (if they demonstrate the proper level of competence). So you have these people who have never climbed before belay you then as well; or do you have another person there to give you a belay?
However, with absolute first timers and no other experienced people, I always climb with the mental attitude that I am soloing the route.
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marc801
Oct 10, 2011, 9:40 PM
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cracklover wrote: Hmmm... It seems to me that properly and safely teaching someone to clean the anchors on a sport route (I don't know why we're all assuming that it is a sport route, since the OP didn't say so, but let's assume that is what he meant) will eat up as much if not more of your day as just cleaning the route yourself.
cracklover wrote: So let the "guide for the day" decide which he'd rather do.
cracklover wrote: If I were in the OP's position, I would make that choice based on what I saw from the n00b. It would be pretty clear, pretty quickly, if the n00b was excited to learn everything possible, and was hooked on climbing. In that case, I would take the time to teach her to clean and lower. If the n00b was just having fun and being kind of a child about it, just wanting to be entertained, I'd quickly clean the routes myself. And if the n00b seemed like she was just not that into climbing, again, I'd just clean the routes myself. But the OP is not me. The OP sounds like he's a n00b himself. In his case, the OP should be cleaning the routes. I really don't like the idea of someone who's only just barely learned a technique himself trying to coach an even n00bier person through a somewhat tricky process that can go very wrong very fast.
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chadnsc
Oct 10, 2011, 10:14 PM
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marc801 wrote: chadnsc wrote: marc801 wrote: TarHeelEMT wrote: I do this: In reply to: Sure, I could lead it for the climber, then let them climb it on top rope, unclipping the rope as they climb up, and then climb it again and clean it. almost every time I take people out who have never climbed before. We disagree then. Every time I take people out who have never climbed before, they get to do all the tasks necessary, including cleaning pro and anchors. That would include cleaning the anchors on a sport route and rethreading for lower (if they demonstrate the proper level of competence). So you have these people who have never climbed before belay you then as well; or do you have another person there to give you a belay? It depends... and I didn't want to get into every possible use case. However, with absolute first timers and no other experienced people, I always climb with the mental attitude that I am soloing the route.
Mental attitude?
Why not actually solo the climb then and simply bring a tag line to belay up your newer climber?
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socalclimber
Oct 10, 2011, 11:15 PM
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I agree with the concept that you're soloing, but the real question is are you prepared to do that?
The first thing you have to realize is that once YOU leave the ground, you have little to no control over what they do.
Turn this into a day of top roping and forget about leading anything with this person. Since you have to ask these questions online, you are really putting your neck on the block and are not prepared or experienced enough to take these risks, much less asses them.
Keep it simple, straight forward and something you can manage with ease. Pick easy routes in the beginning and then maybe later on in the day up the ante. Even on top rope, you have to rely on their belay.
Do you really want to take those kind of chances?
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johnwesely
Oct 10, 2011, 11:36 PM
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Just another case of the overconfident noob and the underconfident nooblet.
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Kartessa
Oct 11, 2011, 2:54 AM
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chadnsc wrote: marc801 wrote: chadnsc wrote: marc801 wrote: TarHeelEMT wrote: I do this: In reply to: Sure, I could lead it for the climber, then let them climb it on top rope, unclipping the rope as they climb up, and then climb it again and clean it. almost every time I take people out who have never climbed before. We disagree then. Every time I take people out who have never climbed before, they get to do all the tasks necessary, including cleaning pro and anchors. That would include cleaning the anchors on a sport route and rethreading for lower (if they demonstrate the proper level of competence). So you have these people who have never climbed before belay you then as well; or do you have another person there to give you a belay? It depends... and I didn't want to get into every possible use case. However, with absolute first timers and no other experienced people, I always climb with the mental attitude that I am soloing the route. Mental attitude? Why not actually solo the climb then and simply bring a tag line to belay up your newer climber?
I thought that's why you bring the grigri?
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TarHeelEMT
Oct 11, 2011, 3:09 AM
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Kartessa wrote: chadnsc wrote: marc801 wrote: chadnsc wrote: marc801 wrote: TarHeelEMT wrote: I do this: In reply to: Sure, I could lead it for the climber, then let them climb it on top rope, unclipping the rope as they climb up, and then climb it again and clean it. almost every time I take people out who have never climbed before. We disagree then. Every time I take people out who have never climbed before, they get to do all the tasks necessary, including cleaning pro and anchors. That would include cleaning the anchors on a sport route and rethreading for lower (if they demonstrate the proper level of competence). So you have these people who have never climbed before belay you then as well; or do you have another person there to give you a belay? It depends... and I didn't want to get into every possible use case. However, with absolute first timers and no other experienced people, I always climb with the mental attitude that I am soloing the route. Mental attitude? Why not actually solo the climb then and simply bring a tag line to belay up your newer climber? I thought that's why you bring the grigri?
The first time my girlfriend lowered me on a grigri was one of my scariest moments in climbing.
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Rmsyll2
Oct 11, 2011, 3:05 PM
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'johnwesely' wrote: "Just another case of the overconfident noob and the underconfident nooblet."
I see or hear of such situations commonly, and the word "cruel" comes to my mind. The word "teaching" doesn't.
Two options missing so far: the lead unclips or cleans the pro on the way down, meaning the second can just climb, and the lead can lead again for less boredom and more practice. Doing laps is a basic training tactic for anyone at any level. Also, I know of no easy climbs that cannot be made harder for more interest.
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