So then there is no way to backup an ATC belayer without a third, correct?

Sounds rad that you and your girlfriend are out climbing together.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you are toproping just fine with her on a grigri2 but are concerned with her hanging on when catching a lead fall? This concern comes from expecting the grigri to be a pain to lead belay with so you are switching to an ATC. Assuming that's all correct here are my thoughts.

1. Don't mess with the prussik. Yes AMGA uses that in certain situations, I am guessing that your guide might have showed it to you in one way and not meant it to be used in others. If you have a 3rd, then just have them hold the rope and you should be sufficient.

2. The best way to backup a single belayer using an ATC is to teach them solid belay technique and then PRACTICE on toprope. In other words. Go out and build a toprope setup on something steep. Then, have your girlfriend belay with a standard ATC and a friend who is solid to back her up by holding the rope as well as watch and critique her after the climb is done (not during, too distracting). If her belay technique is solid then move on to the next step. Throw a small amount of slack into the toprope line and take a fake lead fall. Again, your buddy is backing her up and she will get the sensation of being lifted off the ground while holding the break with a standard ATC. If she is solid then go for a bit bigger fall. It's important to make sure the slack is on her side, not yours, this ensures that you don't snag your leg on the loop below. Also, make sure you don't get rope burn from the other strand going up while you come down!

Most likely your girlfriend doesn't want to drop you and will be holding strong. That being said, the first time a belayer sees someone falling towards them is the real make or break moment. Everyone reacts differently.

I have been belayed by the tiniest of girls who gripped that rope like nobodies business. The worst however was a friend who was outdoorsy and a climber. Here's how it played out... She had never caught a lead fall before and I was on a route that was too much for me. Back in my noob days :)

Me: I'm going to fall, you ready?
Her: Yeah I got you.
Me: You're holding the break down?
Her: Yep, solid, go for it!
Me: Okay on three... 3, 2, 1
My Body: This is weird I just bounced my skull off the ground... glad I had my helmet on!
Me: You owe me dinner.
Her: OMG I'M SO SORRY ARE YOU OKAY!?!?

What happened? Well a falling object is scary. Psychologically we are programmed to dive out of the way, so she did just that, dropped the rope and dove!

So yeah, practice toprope falls on an ATC. Then practice fake toprope/lead falls on an ATC. Then when you go for the real thing, make sure she is backed up by a friend for the big final test!

Also.... I would recommend trying this out:
Set up a toprope with you climbing and a friend belaying. Clip in to a second rope that you will "mock" lead on. Have her belay with the grigri2 while you mock lead on toprope. This gives her a chance to get dialed with how to use the device on lead. Make sure she's doing it correct! A bad/incorrect lead belay on a grigri (where she is consistently holding it in break position to feed rope) is dangerous and needs to be addressed right away to prevent bad habits!

So there ya go, two ways to break into the lead belay with an ATC or grigri2. Have fun!

Just keep it simple, I've always found that keeping things simple and performing them flawlessly are the best way to do things when climbing, complicating things that should be simple often times leads to failures, rather than making things simpler.

I'm double the weight of my wife, we've been climbing together for 18 years. The only device she's used to belay me as been an atc. We've top roped, and done multi pitch trad routes.

Teach her how to belay properly, and stay on easier routes until you are comfortable that she has belaying down pat (that goes for anyone that is new to belaying). Definately anchor her in!

Now if the real issue is that she says she's not comfortable belaying you, then give serious consideration to bringing an experienced climber to belay you.

Judging from your questions, I wouldn't advise that you teach anyone anything. You are too new to this to be an effective teache . . .

And I've been climbing for 25 years. I can only imagine what you might think about the OP.

Jay

...we've heard of people dropped by experienced people with an ATC on RC ...

Listen to this guy ^^^

GO

Hmmm. 'Experienced' isn't just a measure of time on rock or yardage, but rather of a positive progression of time, yardage, skills, and judgment. Experienced belayers don't drop people with any belay device - incompetent belayers do.

And I separate out 'belayers' from 'climbers' because I've run into some well-known climbers who sucked at belaying. Generally when I see that it's usually because they're only 'on' when they are climbing - when someone else is climbing and they aren't the focus, well, then they'd be less interested in the proceedings. The prima donna thing really isn't what you want in a belayer.

Hmmm. 'Experienced' anyone who believes that it can never happen to them because they have the "right" belayers IMO is kidding themselves ... anyone can have a lapse in attention, and it only needs to happen once

you cant guarantee that the other person will be on their game every moment, you can stack the odds in yr favor by choosing the right person ... but at the end of the day thats what it is ... odds

all it takes is one slip up

This makes no sense from beginning to end. I'm really hoping that English isn't your first language, and you've just completely failed to get your ideas across. Because otherwise you seem to misunderstand nearly everything in the belay process.


1 - If you wish to back up a belayer, the above would be a horrible way to do it.

2 - After a belayer has properly learned and demonstrated the ability to belay, no backup belayer should be involved.

3 - An incompetent belayer may drop you with any device, whether it is auto-locking or not.


1 - The belayer should always be aware of the potential danger of rockfall. Some areas have a very low likelihood of rockfall, others a very high likelihood. The belayer should stand out of the way, and should wear a helmet if necessary. Mitigation is 99.9% of the solution, autolocking belay devices are a 0.1% solution to rockfall, at best.

2 - Why the concern about the belayer's hand getting burned? I've seen this happen only twice, and in both cases the rope burn was caused by the belayer dropping the climber, not the other way around. In each case, the belayer was using a poor technique, and the climber fell just at the weak point of the belayer's technique.


Yes, but if you ever have a reason to do so, you've already screwed something else up.


If you weigh twice what your belayer does, anchoring her with a long tether might work well. A grigri might also work well. I don't understand the bit about the grigri being inefficient at all.

GO

there are also a lot more climbers out there today than before ... many more

and i suspect all these climber take many more falls than the climbers of before ...

either way ... you are climbing in todays world ... and unless your partners are all 70 year old geezers who will "never" drop anyone, you are being belayed by todays climbers ...

...as evidenced by one of our sadly dropped members, "experienced" climbers in todays world can drop people ...

No one I climb with would ever drop anyone. Guaranteed.

Widespread belay fuckups are a relatively recent phenom and largely unheard of BITD. An 'experienced' belayer should be able to go through a career spanning four or five decades and NEVER fuckup a belay, ever. An 'experienced' belayer can guarantee they will be on their game every moment - and anytime they can't, then they shouldn't be belaying at that time.

So, yeah, all it takes is one slip up, but a slip up belaying should NEVER happen. That it does routinely today is a reflection of today's overall demographic, how that demographic learns to climb, and the development of a broad attitude of tolerance for the intolerable.

sorry .... but i call bull

theres no way you can "guarantee" that absolutely ... you may THINK they wont ... but theres utterly no way you can guarantee it ... shiet can happen to anyone.

Man, if I believed a single word of that I'd quit climbing tomorrow. Really. When I say "absolutely", I mean absolutely guarantee a good belay.

Shite does not just "happen", incompetent people make shite happen. Incompetency isn't in the air, doesn't fall out of the sky to land on random people, and isn't visited upon us by chance in any other way. You are either competent to the task of belaying or you aren't. There is no gray in the matter.

That people like you would accept this as some sort of new 'reality' means climbing is way of the rails in general these days and expanding the demographic so rapidly over the past two decades was, in hindsight, quite unfortunate. That's because it means there are now a bunch of people climbing who shouldn't and never should have.

oh bull again ... ive stated many times that there are bad belayers and they should not be belaying .. and that anyone who belays should be able to do it with an ATC ...

what i can and do accept is the fact that people are fallible ... and yes even the best people ...everyone makes a mistake sooner or later..

to blindly "guarantee" that no one you ever climb with will never drop anyone for the rest of their climbing careers is just being delusional IMO

guess you dont climb with new partners ... same old group of same old "guaranteed" people ...

many people are competent ... till they screw up.

No one I climb with would ever drop anyone. Guaranteed.... When I say "absolutely", I mean absolutely guarantee a good belay....

...You are either competent to the task of belaying or you aren't. There is no gray in the matter....