I understand perfectly, I simply disagree. Should we keep track of the first summits by gingers as well?

My view celebrates differences more than yours-- I see an individual, you see a "straight middle class african-american male".

LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Best reply evah!!

While we're at it, let's take away Jackie Robinson's achievement of being the first black baseball player, too, because, you know, there were lots of people who had played baseball before.

I don't know dude, the whole seeing people as individuals goes only as far as the individual goes. Sometimes the argument is in between the lines and sometimes the sum of the problem is greater than the individual parts added together. When I see a black person I see a person because my era is different than my grandfather's, but when I look at history I see a much different picture.

How can you see an individual and not consider their gender, race, and after some amount of interaction their probable or actual socio-economic standing and sexual preference? All of those things are part of people.

Mostly it doesn't matter what some particular individual sees (like you) unless you happen to be a very influential individual (yes, I'm saying you don't matter). However, there are still a lot of people who see differences and discriminate against them and/or who feel discriminated against because of them.

Are you saying that when you meet a black male that you don't notice that he's black? I am sorry I can't do that. My eyesight is just fine, thank you. I feel what you are doing is not treating people as individuals but ignoring their individuality.

It's just that I can notice differences without treating those differences unfairly or with any bias.

If the all ginger climbing club of Edinburgh wanted to find the first ginger to climb Denali and celebrate that achievement, why would you care? Let them take pride in their identity, it doesn't affect you one bit.

That's precisely the point.

I think the difference is that you see a person mostly born with their identity, I see them create an identity from what they are born with and the life they live. To reduce a person to the circumstances of their birth is demeaning and disrespectful.

Sort of like having different bathrooms for whites and blacks, as long as one's not nicer than the other? It's not possible to see two different groups of people without making comparisons and judgments between the two.

... this race-card bullshit being played out. Thats why I object to the question.

Could you please explain to me how asking the question "Does anyone out there know who the first African American to climb Denali (Mt. McKinley) was?" is "race0card bullshit?" This is a serious question, as I am trying to understand where your mind is at.

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Quite simply put.. because this is, was and always will be a cultural and socioeconomic issue.. not a racial issue.

Racism is unique to cultures not peoples. As are socioeconimic problems.. to imply that every white man was a racist in 1964 or every black man was some oppressed down trodden minority makes one no better than they people they accuse.

What was the assumption here..? That there as a group of KKK down at base camp.. chewing on his ropes? Or a burning cross waiting for him at the top. Or that people refused to help him climb because of his skin color? Denali is rugged and difficult now.. that land and its people are difficult and rugged.. and have little time for nuances like racism. People who climb mountains and those who support them have little time for such nuances... and if even they do they would be quickly dispelled when your lives are in each others hands.

ANY difficuly endeavor is performed through perseverance and character.. not through melanin count.

That's an interesting statement, because the act itself is due to perseverance and character. But the black man has to overcome objectives - even today in our age of racism being on the way out - that a white man simply does not encounter.

Keep drinking that koolaid. What are these barriers? Getting into college with a lower GPA than a white guy? I guarantee that millions of blacks were born into more favorable socioeconomic circumstances than I or anyone I grew up with was.

Quite simply put.. because this is, was and always will be a cultural and socioeconomic issue.. not a racial issue.

Racism is unique to cultures not peoples. As are socioeconimic problems.. to imply that every white man was a racist in 1964 or every black man was some oppressed down trodden minority makes one no better than they people they accuse.

What was the assumption here..? That there as a group of KKK down at base camp.. chewing on his ropes? Or a burning cross waiting for him at the top. Or that people refused to help him climb because of his skin color? Denali is rugged and difficult now.. that land and its people are difficult and rugged.. and have little time for nuances like racism. People who climb mountains and those who support them have little time for such nuances... and if even they do they would be quickly dispelled when your lives are in each others hands.

Climbing Denali.. or ANY mountain is a an incredible feat for ANY man.. dont belittle it by bringing the color of ones skin into a place where it simply doesnt bleong.

ANY difficuly endeavor is performed through perseverance and character.. not through melanin count.

If he climbed Denali... its because he was a great man not because he was a great black man



and when the day comes that whites are the minority and I'm afforded the honor to be the first to perform something incredible.. I REALLY hope people would remember me for being the first man to accomplish it.. not the first white man

Studies have shown that short men are discriminated against even moreso than minorities when it comes to employment and promotions. Better looking people get promoted more easily. We live in an imperfect world, but I fail to believe we will make any progress by reversing the discrimination. I prefer to be colorblind.

To be clear, my remark did say "even today."

But no...no racism here in the USA anymore.

I don't understand why you are getting offended (I know I said I am done with this thread). Why can't racism and discrimination be talked about without people getting up in arms about it? Just because racism towards black people is being talked about, no one is saying that other groups have not had to endure discrimination as well. No one is saying that as a white man, you have participated in this discrimination.

I grew up a white, middle to upper middle class, white male. I am fairly intelligent, fairly attractive (IMO), average height, from a loving family. I am pretty sure that I have never been discriminated against for anything. I am also pretty sure that I have never discriminated (at least to my knowledge) against anyone else for their skin color, gender, sexual orientation, political affiliation, or lack of charismatic good looks. That being said, I don't see why discrimination can't be talked about without people taking offense to it, or thinking that they or people they know haven't had just as hard a life.

Josh

I can only speak for myself. I get "up in arms" about it because I grew up amongst poor white trash to be perfectly honest. I saw how some of us struggled to rise above it but very few of us made it out. Only unusual intelligence and drive got me where I am. To have additional barriers put in our way because we were white was ridiculous. I would have loved to gotten more scholarships to go to college, but I'm not a minority or a woman. I had to work full time and it took me 8 very long years. I'm a better person for it and I appreciate what I have all the more, but I sure wouldn't chose that path for my kids. Go spend a week volunteering on a reservation and you might think a bit differently about things.

Why does this get you so angry? Can you just not acknowledge that African Americans are really under-represented in the American climbing community, and that recognizing African-American achievements in climbing might inspire greater minority participation? Indeed, that seeing an African-American dude summit some high mountains might show minority kids that they can have the opportunity to do something incredible like that, if they work at it?

Do you also object to people recording women's ascents or publicizing women completing hard climbs?

Quite simply put.. because this is, was and always will be a cultural and socioeconomic issue.. not a racial issue.

Just amazing! I work all over Latin America and this exact thing is what I see used to justify the most incredible kind of racism.