Alpmclmbr1: Do you find the above two statements you made a little conflicting???

You said I seven times in the above quote! Climb anyway you want, just don't tell the rest of us what is right or wrong! Your opinion and your climbing style is important to you and maybe a few other people. Are you having fun when you climb? Are you meeting nice people when you go climbing? Do you feel good after a day of climbing? These are the things you really should ask yourself, not if someone pinkpoint or redpointed a route.

* "word-gerrymandering and quibbling over semantics" nice description of what sport climbers did to the definition of a redpoint. Weak ego's that couldn't deal with calling it a pinkpoint because it threatened their masculinity.*

Wow. So people who climb on fixed -oh, sorry, "pre-hung"- draws have weak egos and are limp-wristed to boot. Somehow that description doesn't jibe with the image I have of Sharma, Caldwell, Huber et al. I guess they're all fags compared to you, though, the heroic draw-placer, who makes the rest of the sport climbing world look like fruitcakes with your awesome quickdraw-placing skills.

* Nice try, the reason people use rapides is so that gumbies won't steal them. If a route has perma draws on it I don't worry about it and appreciate the convenience.*

No. It's because hardware-store stuff is cheaper to leave as fixed than biners, and because cleaning draws on steep routes in a pain in the ass. Gumbies with a wrench, or a knife to cut the draw runner, can (and do) still steal them.

*I hangdog sport routes now, for my first four years of climbing I didn’t. But that is as far as I am willing to go.*

*If a route has perma draws on it I don't worry about it and appreciate the convenience.*

*In some senses climbing with pre-placed draws is cheating yourself of the most the route has to offer*

*My hardest sport route send was a pinkpoint. My hardest on-sight was putting the draws in.*

Everything you've said so far is so easy to refute, so impossible to make sense out of, so self-contradictory and so full of obfuscation, that I'm surprised you keep going. You sound like Ari Fleischer at an Iraq press conference. At least he had the brains to realize he could'nt win and was making a total ass out of himself, and quit. Now it's your turn.

This whole thread is a joke. For those of us who climb in reality (not just think about climbing behind a computer screen), the distinction between red and pink point has long been dropped.

Preplaced protection is exactly that. Whether or not a draw is on the bolt or not, the protection is preplaced therefore, arguing about a pink or red point is mute.

All lead ascents that start at the bottom of a sport route and only have at max 2 bolts stick clipped (assuming there are more than 2 bolts on the route :lol: ) that clip the rope through the preplaced protection the rest on the way up without placing any body weight on the rope and end in clipping the anchors is a successful redpoint.

This is not an opinion, this is fact as is represented by thousands of ascents every year at every sport crag across the world

Those who are arguing in favor of pink pointing in terms of sport climbing need to get outside and do some climbing. Your definitions need to be updated to the standard version represented in the 2003 Version of the Sport Climbing Lexicon :lol:

How much do you want to bet that I have at least 3 times as many climbing days as you do over the last four years.
Do you deny that putting the draws in increases the pump factor and thus the difficulty?

To put this discussion in another light.
There are two types of sport climbers that I have seen at the crags. One is the type that does roshambo with his partner to see who tries to try the on-sight while putting the draws in and who gets to try it with the draws already in. They often can’t agree and end up sitting around until someone else clips up the route for them. (often magazine climbers)

Then there is the climber that looks for the route without any draws on it in order to do the route in the best style possible. (often the strongest climber around)

The second type get my admiration and emulation. And anybody that says there is not a difference is a wanker. (sorry but true)

I have spent time working on access and land managers, building trails, developing entire areas, and hiking/scouting near areas.

I still maintain that the best climbers I have met at any particular crag do not deny there is a distinction between doing a route with the draws in and without, and there actions show that they value that difference.
That is not to say that they do not do their hardest sends with draws in place.

How about if I did in tennis shoes?

To put this discussion in another light.
There are two types of sport climbers that I have seen at the crags. One is the type that does roshambo with his partner to see who tries to try the on-sight while putting the draws in and who gets to try it with the draws already in. They often can’t agree and end up sitting around until someone else clips up the route for them. (often magazine climbers)

Then there is the climber that looks for the same route without any draws on it in order to do the route in the best style possible. (often the strongest climber around)

The second type get my admiration and emulation. And anybody that says there is not a difference is a wanker. (sorry but true)

ajkclay 1 said:

It seems as though you can't post to this unless you are quoting someone else.

ajkclay 2 said:

Not true you idiot!

ajkclay 1 said:

who are you calling an idiot?

ajkclay 2 said:

YOU, you idiot!

HELLO -

I HAVE COME FROM THE FUTURE. WE ARE STILL HAVING THIS ARGUMENT.

HELLO -

I HAVE COME FROM THE FUTURE. WE ARE STILL HAVING THIS ARGUMENT.