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farasnyl10
Jan 17, 2003, 5:13 AM
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Quote:
It almost seems like meat eaters get pissed because deep down they feel a little guilt about how and where their food comes from but they don't want to think about it.
yes, that must be it. hehe. i don't know how i sleep at night. must be all the tryptophan in turkey, eh?
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wildtrail
Jan 17, 2003, 5:33 AM
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Well, first of all, the person that says milking a cow is like raping it needs to seriously get a life. Now, I don't care if you eat meat or not, but why are so many vegetarians, especially vegans, so goddamned extreme? Moot point, don't care.
Actually, I think the question to your question is, "are we"?
We do destroy a lot of our environment in the act of climbing. Trails are trampled, holds chipped, routes bolted, trees removed, refuse left behind, etc.
Those that don't find this true, need some education.
Ever see bags of poop, debris, and garbage at the bottom of El Cap? I have. Even my local crag is littered. Now, granted, this isn't done by climbers and climbers alone, but climbers play a role in the destruction of the environment. Even the most careful and considerate do. Like me, and hopefully all of you.
I do some work for the Access Fund and a we other local organizations, and for the most part you are right. Climbers are aware. Still, we have an impact, but humanity does on everything to begin with.
What can be done? Nothing, outside of stopping climbing. Which won't happen. We just have to make sure that the impact we have on the environment is as small as possible. Then, pitch in and clean up, donate money, etc. Whatever it takes. After all, at least we aren't like the group of white trash losers I saw last year throwing there beer cans into the boulder fields at Devil's Lake. I carried my gear and filled my pack with their cans. They sat there for an hour and polished a case between the three of them, leaving every can behind.
Some people deserve the firing squad!
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dingus
Jan 17, 2003, 5:34 AM
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"They wouldn't have evolved without tons of selective breeding (poor man's genetic engineering), and they sure as hell wouldn't survive on their own in the wild. There's no cow-based natural ecosystem anywhere. "
ALL breeding is selective. Read Darwin.
And you're wrong, cows would survive. There is a part of Europe where cows went wild about 1000 years ago, near the Pyrenees if memory serves. Those tame-gone-wild cows are some fearsome beasts. If you think cows are meek and sitting ducks, I have a certain pasture in mind I just dare you to walk across. Bonus points for wearing a red shirt.
DMT
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full-time-climb
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Jan 17, 2003, 5:48 AM
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I once met a vegetarian that said "he was that way because he really hated plants."
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boulderingmadman
Jan 17, 2003, 6:56 AM
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environmentally conscious because it is in our best interest to protect that which gives us so much pleasure. and we ARENT the only ones. throw a soda can into the ocean in front of a bunch of surfers...ever hear of the surfrider foundation? highest impact ocean rescue foundation in existence...
spiritual because of our constant one-on-one communion with nature. inevitably, solitary time spent in natural settings will lend one to draw varying conclusions of spirituality. again, hang out with a bunch of hardcore surfers and listen to THEM wax philosophical about the "meaning of life"...
you realize of course that this enlightenm,ent about environmental issues and spirituality is usually reserved for the "elders" in these sports. the young groms thrashiong through the waves are in it for fun...but the old dude with the 9' long board is waaaay sdpiritual. same with climbers...
ps--hey vegans and veggies...if it wasnt for leather and beef, dairy and beef cows wouldnt be here. if i didnt want a hamburger...little bessie never would have been born. whose life are YOU saving? without meateaters and leather wearers, their lives would not be...
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hanuman
Jan 17, 2003, 10:36 AM
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once u climb a rock u fall in love with the rock!! After a climb the way i perceive the rock is irretrievably changed. I cant help but protest any damage to the rock and conservation seems very instinctive. i have noticed most other serious climbers also think the same way. I have heard someone define climbing as neuro muscular activity! hmm...this is quite primitive. I would say it is a mental,physical and spiritual act. That makes sense to me.
i eat meat sometimes simply cos i love the taste. But i dont need it every day. I think a meat full daily diet would be disgusting!
hey..if cows are not supposed to be milked then why do they have teats? or if womens breasts were not supposed to be touched then why are they there?
i think someones gone out of context with milking and rape!!
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boulderingmadman
Jan 17, 2003, 10:51 AM
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my question is only a question posed to those who claim they are vegetarians because they dont believe in eating anything "with a face", or whatever.
basically, i know ALOT of vegetarians and vegans. most (like any other group of people, individuals have their own personal reasons, etcetc...) claim that they believe it is wrong to harm living animals for food. i say bull$#!&. if i didnt eat beef, along with several million other omnivores on the planet, most cattle would never have been born. they are raised ONLY to provide food and clothing options. ergo: whose life are you saving? without us omnivores, they would never have been born in the first place...
ps--daisyfay, youll learn not to take my bull$#!& personally. it isnt intended that way, try not to take it that way. im an asshole most of the time. i like it.
in the words of eminem: "Ilove pissing you off. It gets me off, like my lawyers when the %@#$ing judge lets me off. All you mother%@#$ers gotta do is set me off, I'm violating all the mother%@#$ing bets be off" id go on, but youd hate me for it. quite simply, it amuses me to piss people off sometimes...
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aarong
Jan 17, 2003, 3:09 PM
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And in the words of Nerf Herder:
I don't eat vegetables.
I don't eat meat.
I only eat candy.
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micronut
Jan 17, 2003, 3:17 PM
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I got into climbing through my love of the mountains. At the time, I assumed that all climbers were like John Muir or Doug Robinson, nature lovers who just wanted to add some intensity to their interactions with Nature. Unfortunately, now that climbing is "in", it seems to have degraded a bit into ego and number pursuits.
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calimouth
Jan 17, 2003, 4:03 PM
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Any outdoor sport is going to be an environmentally-conscious sport. Case-closed. In terms of spirituality (of which there are many forms), climbers of every type of religion/belief can incorporate the beauty of nature into the glory of god/the gods/life force/whatever.
In terms of the environment: it is very dangerous to begin to label different species as "natural" or "unnatural." Humans ARE natural, they just affect their surroundings a lot more than other species. Is the beaver unnatural because it alters its surroundings through dams? Granted, humans have done a lot more than that, and steps need to be taken--but don't separate humans from the world. That us and then mentality is what got us in this predicament in the first place.
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styndall
Jan 17, 2003, 5:02 PM
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"ps--hey vegans and veggies...if it wasnt for leather and beef, dairy and beef cows wouldnt be here. if i didnt want a hamburger...little bessie never would have been born. whose life are YOU saving? without meateaters and leather wearers, their lives would not be... "
Did you not read my post? That's the friggin point!!! Cows are destructive when we keep them in the numbers we do, in the concentration we do. Very destructive. Thus, we need to kill most of them. All of them would be better, but definitely most. I'm not a vegetarian because I believe in some bull$#!& cutesy-pootsy version of nature where nothing gets hurt; I eat the way I do because the way we keep animals in america is destructive to both our bodies (seen the $#!& they pump into livestock these days to keep the animals "healthy" while packed into factory farms?) and our environment.
Oh, and to the dude who said all breeding is selective: congratulations, you've stated the obvious. You've also used a disingenuous and (honestly) stupid strawman to try to pick at my argument.
There is a difference in man-made selective breeding and natural selection, a big one. Natural selection over time makes creatures more fit for their environment. Selective breeding for purpose of captivity makes creatures, in general, much less suitable for their environment - they're no longer as tough, they're fatter and slower, and they start to lose the sense of wariness that keeps wild creatures alive.
Any animal that you can tip wouldn't live past a few weeks in the wild, with wolves and jackals and whatnot hunting nocturnally.
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drector
Jan 17, 2003, 5:19 PM
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I drive a car and I eat meat. I walk on bushes to get to the rock sometimes. My house is built from a lot of wood.
This does not exclude me from appreciating the natural beauty all around me. And thanks to that natural beauty and the experience at the crag, I am more aware of the damage I do to the environment. So perhaps my climbing impact, like the trampling of the forest, will cause me to buy a more fuel efficient car or make me want to walk a few places instead of drive.
I think that if more people got into the outdoors then the forest would get a bit more littered and the bushes a bit more trampled but maybe, just maybe, enough people would learn appreciation and they would walk instead of drive and postpone global warming for a few more years or recycle more or....
Think of how climbing is not spiritual but more of an inspiration to try to be more spiritual.
Dave
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roninthorne
Jan 17, 2003, 5:36 PM
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I don't know about hardcore climbers being more spiritual, but I do love the way the question immediately became a flamewar between salad afficianados and lovers of the flesh. I guess our conclusions here can be that forum climbers are less capable of staying on topic.
In other words, all humans, no matter how hard they climb or what they eat (or how they milk a bull), are basically full of sh*t... and some of that sh*t is screamingly funny! Post on, children... post on!
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wildtrail
Jan 17, 2003, 5:42 PM
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Chris, Chris, Chris, Chris, Chris. Don't quote Eminem. The guys is about as bright as a two watt light bulb, his music is repetative and crappy, and the guy should be clubbed with a nine iron and left bleeding in the moonlight.
Quote someone intelligent. Please. You're better than that. After all, your words are well written and your thoughts in depth.
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maiorlive
Jan 17, 2003, 7:04 PM
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roninthorne, it may be flaming and kind of fruity but the “meat or murder” argument addresses the original poster’s assumption that vegans are more spiritually advanced than non-vegans. It’s relevant because it questions whether vegan climbers are evidence that climbers more spiritual than your average joe.
roadtriipper, I don’t believe you should compare the experience of riding in a ½ ton metal sensory deprivation chamber with climbing. Regardless of the after-the-experience statistics, the fact is that climbing feels much less removed from the possibility of serious injury and death. The greater distance between driver and death may be illusory, but if people didn’t experience driving as safer than climbing you’d be questioned far more often about why you drive than why you climb. I am willing to accept a comparison between climbing and riding a motorcycle.
Also: you pursue climbing = you pursue death. I’m not saying climbers have a death wish, but it is the nature of the sport. (I’m told it’s only sporting if you risk something.) I won’t climb with anyone who has a death wish, and I won’t climb with someone who ignores the obvious proximity of death at the crag. I trust my partners to settle into an appropriately cautious and attentive relationship with death. Anything less than full attention is foolish.
saltspringer, I don’t think you mean nature, which presents itself to us everywhere (including inside our cars), but wilderness: “deep nature” beyond the hand of man. Even so, there’s nothing “inevitable” about respect for nature following an experience of wilderness. There’s nothing inevitable about spiritual growth from near death experiences either, though for a different reason. I think the reason everyone things that the wonder of nature is the reason for climber’s spirituality, is because they’ve confused the source of that spirituality with the content of it.
Nature can be found everywhere and anywhere, but everyone seems to think that you have to get out to the wilderness in order to have that spiritual epiphany. So what’s so special about the wild? I suggest that there are greater opportunities to be killed (by nature) in the wild than at McDonalds. It’s the closer presence of death that makes the experience unique. Hanging off an overhang 20m up a rock 2 hours run from help just brings death at nature's hand a little closer, a little more in your face.
You don’t like the idea that death is (spiritual) inspiration and motivation for climbers? Then think of it differently: many, perhaps most, climbers are motivated by the challenge implied by their own limitations, the ultimate limitation being...
WC
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wonderwoman
Jan 17, 2003, 7:09 PM
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Lets face it.... climbers are passionate people! It is easy to be passionate about the environment when we spend so much time outside.
I think we all feel some sort of zen when we are on the rock (when we are not grunting or swearing). Climbing gives me focus in this crazy world. I forget about everything else!
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climb4life
Jan 17, 2003, 7:25 PM
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we got the meat eaters
we got the omnivores
we got the vegetarians
we got the vegans
what's next?
starvation?
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roninthorne
Jan 17, 2003, 9:16 PM
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maiorlive- sorry, but that was too good.
"...the “meat or murder” argument addresses the original poster’s assumption that vegans are more spiritually advanced than non-vegans."
Vegan or non vegan as a definition of your style of climbing means you are obsessed with the source of your nutritional intake and not the skill with which you climb, IMHO. If you are focused on something as trivial and historically changeable as all that, then maybe you are chasing death when you climb.
Me, I'm chasing LIFE, and if it tastes like food, then as a survivor, I'm going to eat it, plant, animal or mineral!
[ This Message was edited by: roninthorne on 2003-01-17 13:17 ]
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boulderingmadman
Jan 17, 2003, 9:36 PM
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styndall--if you re-read my post, youll see that it is a geric response to vegans and veggies THAT I KNOW...i didnt even read your post...relax
wildtrail--immature, obnoxious, and childish as eminem may be, sometimes his lyrics hit an accuracy note...and they ALWAYS hit a humourous note... hes %@#$ing funny....
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cedk
Jan 17, 2003, 10:37 PM
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Styndall:
I'm becoming convinced that you really don't know anything about cattle or the beef industry. If you're ever passing through Oklahoma send me a PM and I'll show you some real cattle that could survive perfectly well on there own.
You got all upset at Dingus for attacking your selective breeding argument but that argument was bunk anyway. What's a "natural" cow?
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bekkybadass
Jan 18, 2003, 4:36 AM
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Well, first of all I want all of you to know that I agree!!!! Climbers as a whole are very passionate people!! It doesn't matter if you are talking about vegiatarianism or spirituality. I personally never go to the crag with the thoughts that I will die there....on the contrary...I'm here to live!! Nothing in else in my life has pushed me to appreciate the little things in life...the pleasentness of needed hold...the smell of chalk...the warmth of the sun on a cool winter day...it is these things that I think create happiness in people...and I know that when you aren't out in it...you miss it...that is where the spirituality comes from. Love it....keep it....share it!
Climb on!!
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maiorlive
Jan 18, 2003, 5:27 PM
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Everybody's going to have their own take on it and it sounds like most people prefer to talk in terms of a more intense life experience rather than a near death experience. Aside from a certain morbid sentiment, what exactly was the difference between the two again?
I must admit that it seems more appropriate for climbers to talk more about "living close to the edge" rather than about "tempting death." Climbers generally respond to obstacles and limitations with an optimystic courage that they will overcome or outmaneuver them.
W
edit: clarity
[ This Message was edited by: maiorlive on 2003-01-18 09:29 ]
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dingus
Jan 18, 2003, 5:57 PM
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"Natural selection over time makes creatures more fit for their environment. Selective breeding for purpose of captivity makes creatures, in general,"
More fit for THEIR environment. Thank you, thank you very much. NEXT!
"Any animal that you can tip wouldn't live past a few weeks in the wild, with wolves and jackals and whatnot hunting nocturnally. "
That's what I told the waiter, that he wouldn't stand a chance against a pack of wolves. He said I didn't know the head chef.
DMT
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karma274
Jan 20, 2003, 7:10 AM
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No matter if you are vegetarian, Vegan, or completely opposed to being either: Not questioning where the meat people eat comes from, how the animals are treated, what hormones and antibiotics they are on, and not being aware of the environmental factors associated with the farming of meat is just plain ignorance.
Much of the beef used in the US is grown in South America, on land that was once rainforest or other fragile and declining ecosystems.
At least question what you are eating.
Treehugging goes along with being outdoors so much. Many of our climbing areas are also quite beautiful places. This is, or at least should be, inspiration for climbers to help protect what we have left of unspoiled wilderness.
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ecocliffchick
Jan 20, 2003, 3:54 PM
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I've avoided animal products for years and years basically out of respect for the environment. I understand that humans evolved as hunter-gatherers and that we are built and able to digest meat, and to some, that means it's natural to consume it...but for me to purposefully promote further degradation of our few remaining wild lands for agriculture to support the meat industry seems totally unnatural.
There are 6.5 billion of us on the planet right now and if we all need to eat our cheeseburger's "cause it's natural and we should be eating meat", then we'll have to start climbing just to avoid the cattle.
We've already converted 83% of the terrestrial surface of the earth to meet our consumptive needs, perhaps we need to realize that if we can survive utilizing an all plant diet, maybe we should - just to avoid total ecosystem collapse.
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