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craggy
Apr 6, 2003, 4:15 AM
Post #51 of 58
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In reply to: And in truth, this thread really revolves around insecurity, and a thirst for attention and peer recognition, not photography.
I personally haven't posted any photos on the board and most likely never will cause a) I'm no photographer b) have no ambition of being one and c) really don't care whether anyone else but my friends/family and myself see them or not.
I simply started this thread because there seem to be a couple of people out there downgrading amazing pictures for some inane reason and I think it's because they are a) jealous b) annoyed of seeing the same photos visit after visit on the home page c) just pricks or d) trying to get their photos higher in ranking then others...
To the owners of rockclimbing.com - a) remove the voting system b) show the voters c) remove the obvious low OR high rankings (easy to code) d) don't allow the owner of the photo to vote e) as someone else said, don't show the votes immediately (maybe 2 weeks) and allow everyone to decide for themselves instead of being a lemming.
OK, as for the photos, keep em comin!
Craggy
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rwaltermyer
Apr 6, 2003, 12:19 PM
Post #52 of 58
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well thats a nice way to wrap things up. ;)
Also, note my last point: COMMENTS TRULY TELL THE STORY!
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rwaltermyer
Apr 6, 2003, 12:21 PM
Post #53 of 58
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And let me add one more thing for the record:
This thread has opened my eyes a bit. So, the next time I'd like to give constructive criticism, I'll comment on the photo, but give my votes to myself. Sounds fair to me.
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vram1974
Apr 7, 2003, 12:45 AM
Post #54 of 58
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Well, this should be fairly lengthy, but here goes...
bvb wrote a few insulting things:
In reply to: I've been climbing steadily and full-timefor 30 years. And after 30 years, the things which bring meaning to your climbing evolve.
In general this can be true of anything.
In reply to: Although in your mind, my beliefs may be incomprehensible -- or, "a crock" as you so eloquently put it -- to me they are the natural points of view that come from having heard a thouusand various iterations of this thread over the last 3 deacdes. And in truth, this thread really revolves around insecurity, and a thirst for attention and peer recognition, not photography.
Not at all... you've missed my point entirely. I'm not representing your point of view as a crock... I am stating that you know it is a falsehood to present the argument that ratings mean nothing. I hear it all the time with the YDS as well. I hear it as pertained to money. But we all covet these things, whether secretly or openly... so denying that people feel this way may be an attempt on your part to promote your enlightened "old school" status... or maybe you're just trying to stir the pot.
In reply to: So show a little tenderness here, grommet. Don't be declaring my pontifications a crock.
I don't think your opinions are a crock. I think your statement that numbers are meaningless is what is a crock.
In reply to: The rating is the very LAST question that will pop into my head or pass my lips.
Good for you. You are one individual.
In reply to: You, my friend, are most definately a newskool climber and an amatuer photographer who wants to get better and get recognition.
I know you think you are a terribly old school climber... but bvb, you really must get over it. You are nothing remotely "old school". Not even the picture which was given two consecutive "1"s recently which features my grandfather climbing in 1943 is "old school". People were climbing well before he was, and well before yourself, and well before me... timeline has little to do with the ethics of an activity. There were quite a few people who lived in the "good old days" of your era who did very questionable things... in fact much route development in the 80's came at the environmental expense that your generation didn't give a damn about.
As for me being a new climber... yes, I happen to be. I started "rock climbing" as the term fits in 2000. Before that I did not know it existed. As a child in the eighties to used to climb every rock, tree, house, school, or barn I could find. I would solo up objects which even to this day I can not say I understand how I survived. I used to want to climb anything, anytime, anyplace. Only through years and years of punishment by family, school, and even police, did I stop climbing. Silly me... I convinced myself that climbing was an activity which was frowned upon by all of society.
It was not until I went to Germany in 1997 to visit my grandfather, and climbed the mountains there, did I realize there was something I had been missing the past few years. Still, three more years passed until I actually found out that an activity such as "rock climbing" exists.
So kudos to you, bvb... that you happened to be lucky enough to find climbing at an early stage in your life. Lucky for you that you also cooincided with the retro-cool era of climbing when Croft, Kauk, and Hill were icons... that happens to be your success.
But very little about me is "new school".
1. Since the first I found out about traditional climbing, I knew it was what I wanted to do.
2. I have never, nor plan to ever place a bolt.
3. I prefer to lead from the ground-up, without scoping the route on top rope or reading topo or guidebooks
4. I go after attractive lines... not numbers in a guidebook
5. I bought my first quick-draw two years after my first trad gear...
6. I have not, and will not ever clip a bolt which is placed next to a crack
To quote Hermann Buhl, a man who lived and climbed long before you were an "old school" climber....
"The older generation likes to accuse us youngsters of lacking all respect for the mountains nowadays. So far as my own experience goes, there has been no change in the respect paid to the mountains; it is only the attitude towards actual climbing and to the technical difficulties encountered which has changed. I do not believe that to-day's young climber, standing at the foot of a climb, experiences any different feelings from those who climbed it before him: that strange mixture of an upward surge, excitement, the pleasures of anticipation, reverence for Nature and its Creator and-let it be freely admitted-a good sampling of fear."
In reply to: Reminds me of me and all my friends when were were 19 or 20 or 21.....
Well I am 28 years old, married, with a 17 month old boy. I am nothing like your "old school" friends...
I understand and love climbing far more than you could probably understand... after all, I am a new school climber... what could I possibly know about the activity you and your friends invented? That does not mean I will pretend that numbers are not important to me, and that I deny their importance in the context of this thread either.
I am not even an amateur photographer... I did not (obviously) take the damn picture of my grandfather in 1943! I just find it insulting that some person (or it seems two consecutively) would give a 60 year old photograph a rating of "1". To you, this act should be brushed off with a casual comment or two... to me, it speaks volumes about the expression:
"A few apples can spoil the bunch."
The majority of people loved my photograph as much as I do. I am merely annoyed at the individuals who find it amusing to go around skewing the ratings and handing them "1"s. No amount of pontificating on your part about the unimportance of numbers in some kind of quasi-Zen mojo is going to change my mind about it either.
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bvb
Apr 7, 2003, 1:26 AM
Post #55 of 58
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well, there was so much garbled misinterpretation inyour post i'm not even gonna try a point-by-point response. I'll just hit the high points:
You need to read "the greatest climber in the world" by bernard amy. In it, you will find the most eloquent articulation of climbing even put to paper. It's classic, written in 1971. Oh, and the main point of this masterwork of climbing literature is that ratings are meaningless.
"I am stating that you know it is a falsehood to present the argument that ratings mean nothing" holy shiit. you may really be beyond hope. i wish you luck , dood. yer gonna need it. for the record, ratings DO mean NOTHING. This is something you may or may not come to realize someday.
There is noting enlighted about me..any of my homies can attest to that.
"Oldskool", in todays commently accepted parlance, generally refers to the watershed formed when rap bolting became popular...so, folks whose ethics were based on, say, Doug Robinson's article in the '72 Great Pacific Iron Works catalog are "oldskool"; late 80's and 90's climbers are "newskool". Just defining terms here, since the phrase "oldskool" is apparently a lightning rod for you.
It is heartening to see that ou have an interest in the pioneers -- buhl, comici, paul pruess, welzenbach, et al...those guys were so core they make us look pretty tame. do you think THEY gave a f*ck about ratings? They didn't even HAVE a rating system for the climbs they were doing! Are you can bet your ass they weren't spending a lot of time pondering the commen man's reaction to whatever photo's thay managed to take.
My advice to you is to spend less time on this bb frettign about your photo scores, and more time doing...well, you know.
Just one kast time, for empasis: you think my statement that rating are maeaningless are a crock? you've got a loong way to go pilgrim. good luck to you.
i'm rather anazed that my post got such a reaction from you, this whole issue has got you totally wrapped around your driveshafts and you wheels are spinning in the mud. you need to throttle back.
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vram1974
Apr 7, 2003, 2:20 AM
Post #56 of 58
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In reply to: i'm not even gonna try
Quite evident...
In reply to: Oh, and the main point of this masterwork of climbing literature is that ratings are meaningless.
The only thing meaningless are your repeated pontifications that ratings are meaningless. If they were meaningless, why do we have guidebooks? Why do we have money? Why do we count the score in baseball games?
In reply to: you may really be beyond hope. i wish you luck , dood. yer gonna need it. for the record, ratings DO mean NOTHING. This is something you may or may not come to realize someday.
First self-righteous ad hominen...
In reply to: do you think THEY gave a f*ck about ratings? They didn't even HAVE a rating system for the climbs they were doing!
That's the definition of pioneering! Anyway, if ratings mean so little, why don't more people get on "Stage Fright" on Cathedral Ledge? The reason is likely because the route is 5.12c X. An unimportant number to you perhaps...
In reply to: Are you can bet your ass they weren't spending a lot of time pondering the commen man's reaction to whatever photo's thay managed to take.
So what? That was then and this is now!
In reply to: My advice to you is to spend less time on this bb frettign about your photo scores, and more time doing...well, you know.
1. I live in Canada where it snows 6 months a year.
2. I have severe tendonitis
3. wtf is an "oldskool" burnout spending all his time "fretting" about this unimportant topic?
In reply to: Just one kast time, for empasis: you think my statement that rating are maeaningless are a crock? you've got a loong way to go pilgrim. good luck to you.
Second self-righteous ad hominen attack... I don't need luck from an oldskool burnout...
In reply to: i'm rather anazed that my post got such a reaction from you, this whole issue has got you totally wrapped around your driveshafts and you wheels are spinning in the mud. you need to throttle back.
Let's just agree to disagree. I'm happy being with the majority of people who believe ratings mean something. I'm happy to let this thread die...
...unless you have any more ad hominens about what a newskool climber I am and suggestions on the road of life which you have so aptly travelled?
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rwaltermyer
Apr 7, 2003, 2:54 AM
Post #57 of 58
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lemme interrupt again and reiterate: READ COMMENTS...they truly paint a much better picture about a photo's quality.
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bvb
Apr 7, 2003, 3:10 AM
Post #58 of 58
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yes, lets let this thread die. i think it's probably obvious to everyone that our failure to communicate with one another is total, and sets a new standard for miscommunication.
it's clear that we are speaking different languages. we certainly seem to have different definitions of what an ad hominem attack is. i've made no baseless swipes at your prsonal character; hell, i don't even know you.
berg heil
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