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passthepitonspete
Apr 16, 2003, 2:50 AM
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Actually, I was wondering the same thing. I never use my lead rope to construct any of the belay, however if I were to, I would probably use transient crabs so I could easily remove the lead rope later.
I didn't "get" that bit, either.
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socalclimber
Apr 16, 2003, 4:14 AM
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Actualy, I think I understand what your doing... You mean you are just tieing into the belay, as opposed to constructing the belay with the rope.
I have actually used the technique of using multiple slings to create multiple pp's. It seems that if the bolts are reasonably spread apart, this works very well. If the pro is positioned more verticaly, then the cordelette would work better. Thoughts?
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copperhead
Apr 16, 2003, 6:51 AM
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In reply to: By saying light loads, are we talking 100lbs or less????
Yeah, pretty much. 60 to 80, maybe 100 lbs, sometimes even lighter – you can leg-haul a light load darn quick and with less energy expended.
Please refer to this thread to continue the discussion. I figured that belay set-ups are different from 1:1 hauling.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=29832
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socalclimber
Apr 16, 2003, 12:06 PM
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Ok, so back to hauling and haulers (nice thread on belays by the way). For us mere mortals that are struggling to get up Grade V walls, would the Protraxion still be adequate? On my first (and only) successful wall we were hauling around 80lbs. Would buying the bigger pulley really yield that much difference in mech. advantage?
Maybe I'm being foolish, but I really like my protraxion, but if I need to drop the coin and get the setup you recommend, well I guess I will.
Next sub-topic for this thread: Space Hauling
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atg200
Apr 16, 2003, 1:05 PM
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The ProTraxion is fine for Grade V sized loads. We used one to haul through low angle Zion jungle where the loads are the heaviest with a standard 1:1, and had no problems. I also like the simplicity and construction, and am having a hard time justifying to myself buying a beefier haul device. I would love to have a mini Traxion for hauling small loads like I do in the Fisher Towers - its a bummer to haul along the Protraxion for a load on the edge of being able to hand over hand.
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justsendingits
Apr 16, 2003, 2:07 PM
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Don't forget about that warning on the Petz web site about the pro-trax and the mini.Larger ropes not jaming in the device when the free end is weighted.
and don't forget to clip the lower part of the pro trax with a crab eh?
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socalclimber
Apr 19, 2003, 1:20 PM
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Copperhead, could you please explain the process of space hauling.
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copperhead
Apr 25, 2003, 5:43 AM
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Space hauling is also referred to as counterweight hauling, is used with a 1:1 hauling system, and requires two people. I have used this system on only one wall, with a party of three; I don’t have any extra tricks. It is rather simple in that the cleaner, once finished cleaning the pitch, puts his/her ascenders (cleaning system) on the free end of the haul line (on the opposite side of the haubags) and then hangs from it. This acts as a counterweight for the hauling system and makes hauling easier for the climber that is hauling. The cleaner ascends the haul line as necessary and should stay tied into the lead line, giving themselves about 20 or 30 feet of slack. Because space hauling entails the use of another climber’s weight and is used for bags too heavy to haul with a 1:1 system and one climber, I recommend NOT hauling of off a single bolt, even if it is a fresh 3/8” bolt. Equalize the anchors to space haul or haul the bags in two separate loads. A good diagram of a space hauling system appears on page 76 of the Long/Middendorf book. McMullen rules.
Backup your haul system and don't use a Wall Hauler for space hauling!
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apollodorus
Apr 25, 2003, 6:04 AM
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One person can also space haul by himself. You put your jugs and aiders/slings on the haul line opposite the pig, and clip them to your harness. Then, you use another (dynamic) rope to tie in short to (like, 20 or 30 feet of line). You go down, with your jugs pulling the haul line, until the safety line stops you. Then, you jug up the haul line and do it again.
Since the bag is heavier than you are, you will need to generate downward force in addition to your weight to get the bag moving up. You can either pull up on the pig side of the haul line, or you can lean backwards so far you are nearly upside down and walk backwards down the wall. This last is murder on your kidneys unless your harness has LOTS of padding, but is fast.
The perfect setup is when the pig is about twenty pounds heavier than you are. You pull up sharply once on the pig side of the haul line, and its momentum will carry it up and you down until your safety line grabs you.
I edit this to clarify a few things.
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iamthewallress
Apr 25, 2003, 6:09 AM
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(Caveat...This isn't at all the safest way to do things. It's the impatient way to do things when you feel like trusting your life to gear that isn't really recommended for such a task because you don't care to experience free climbing with a 30 lb rack in the dark or some other impending epic if you don't get the lead out...)
Unless I've misunderstood...Youd don't really need 2 people to do a counterweight haul do you? 1:1 counterweight hauling (or what I think we're talking about anyway) has worked well for me solo when the freight-hooked bag (or the combo of bag weight and friction) weighs nearly as much as I do. You eliminate a step by essentially rapping/hauling at once and eliminating the need to basically jug the pitch twice (hauling and cleaning). Tramming yourself down your lead line with a quick draw (use lockers) attached to your belay loop provides a crappy back up and keeps you into the wall if it's steep (although if it was really steep, tramming would be too big of a PITA to be worth it...Feeling lucky with the pully alone?). I clean some stuff on the way down just because it's quicker to zip along, although it means lugging it back up.
I suppose that you could put a little redundancy into the system by adding an inverted asender to the pulley set up, although I haven't tried this.
This works fine for me because I only do C1/C2 at this point, therefore can back clean a good stretch over bomber gear. (Tramming the quickdraw would be a big pain on a stitched-up pitch.) Also, the combined weight of myself plus my bag is under the limit of the pulley (although extra bouncy forces involved with stuck bags and whatnot would probably push me over the limit). If you are a beefy guy with a big-ass bag, it might be even less advisable.
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iamthewallress
Apr 25, 2003, 6:20 AM
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Just read Tom's bit that he posted while I was responding to Copperhead's bit...
It's been my experience (as a 120 lb chick who doesn't want to fiddle with (x>1):1 hooey at every haul and who generally climbs on relatively low anglish terrain with a heavy bag) that giving myself as long of dynamic leash as is practical (usually 20-30 ft when climbing with a partner, but varies depending on the features at the belay) is a good thing to get a little momentum going. I really have to put a lot of back and kidneys and biceps (yanking up on the other side) into getting the bag moving sometimes, and a running start helps. Just thrashing backwards at the belay is no fun at all.
For folks like me leg hauling is what you do with a free-hanging day pack.
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copperhead
Apr 25, 2003, 7:05 AM
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Sorry. I guess I was too hasty in explaining the system. Space hauling or counterweight hauling involves two climbers, by nature. The system that you have both described is a modification of the standard 1:1 hauling system whereby the climber ties-in with a bunch of slack and uses momentum (as Apollo said) to get the bags moving. A space hauling system involves haulbags that are too heavy for one person to haul without the use of a 2:1 system. If two climbers are present, then a counterweighted 1:1 hauling system is much faster than a 2:1 system.
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coyoteblues
Apr 25, 2003, 7:10 AM
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In reply to: ...has worked well for me solo when the freight-hooked bag....
Something I got off of Tuan's site years back was to add a little loop of 4 mm cord to the end of the haul line and clip that to me instead of the actual haul line. That way if during either towing the haul line or while rapping back down the third line, disaster strikes, the little cord will blow and the bag won't pull me off the wall.
In reply to: For [120] folks like me leg hauling is what you do with a free-hanging day pack. |
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