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bigdan
Mar 14, 2003, 7:35 AM
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In reply to: ps to bigdan, as per your statement "because the power drill is faster, the vibration can shatter the rock a bit and end up causing a bigger hole. the power can also simply weaken the rock around the hole. the best, strongest bolts are expertly placed hand drilled bolts" I have to call "b#llsh^t." That statement is simply not true and I'll ask you to offer proof.....
i didn't realize this was a courtroom. i don't have proof, i'm not a scientist, just a climber making comments based on my observations. i'm not trying to be an "expert," i'm trying to be helpful. if i'm wrong, that's fine, just an opinion. sorry, i thought that was clear.
in my experience, i've seen power drills shatter the surface rock a bit too much, making an ok, but subpar hole. i certainly won't suggest that all power drills make bad holes (or even most), nor that all hand drills make good ones. i personally feel more comfortable wielding a hand drill. i feel like i have more control over the subtleties of the hole. just an opinion, of course.
i'll also mention that i do the vast majority of my climbing (and thus my drilling) on sandstone, which obviously might shatter more easily. i suppose that would affect my observations.
best of luck to you. i, as anyone else, have my own views on drilling, but don't force those on anyone. i just offer a viewpoint.
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hroldan
Mar 14, 2003, 2:47 PM
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realitycheck, thats good info!
Thanks all for your advices :D
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jds100
Mar 14, 2003, 5:39 PM
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My own experience is that a "household" drill, 18v, was not enough to get more than 1/2 an inch into sandstone. My partner and I have a 24v DeWalt hammer drill that does a great job, without the "hot battery" setup, that might shorten the life of the drill.
By the way: if you express an opinion, it's probably gonna be accepted better, as such, than if you initially express it as a fact.
And: it sure as hell should take "brain surgery" to establish a sport route, just as much as it does when establishing a trad route, or aid route, or alpine route. In my home area, the "climbing community" rejects the idea of contrived, over-bolted, poorly protected or otherwise sloppy sport routes. People hoping to establish routes here seem to have a sense of the responsibility that is inherent in establishing a route, as opposed to the idea of just getting a name into a guidebook. With hundreds and hundreds of routes established in what is the main sport climbing destination of the area, we have had maybe two "incidents" of dispute about bolting. My partners and I -and other climbers- establish mixed-pro routes, also, respecting the features for trad placements. And, there are trad routes in the area, that are respected, admired and regularly climbed.
It's not fair, based on the original post, to assume that the question is based on naivete, or an eagerness to grid-bolt. And, I think it was particularly rude to make comments that are exactly and specifically contrary to what the original poster asked people not to make.
Good luck to your work.
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hroldan
Mar 14, 2003, 6:14 PM
Post #29 of 69
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Thanks jds100, nice reply.
I see very often how easy is to get answers to never asked questions and often creating fights.
An advice is one thing and is well received, good or bad, but is SAD that some people talk VERY HARD about doing something in a place THEY HAVE NEVER SEEN BEFORE. So, is impossible to live forever in top rope, per example or trad forever if you don't even have the expensive gear to do so.
Thanks all, I finnally got my mind made up to open new routes in the place i've found.
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realitycheck
Mar 15, 2003, 4:10 AM
Post #30 of 69
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bigdan,
fair enough.... perhaps i was too quick to jump on you, but it did sound like you were stating a fact not an opinion... and facts should be able to stand the test of proof. sorry if i misunderstood your comments.
-r
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crackaddict
Mar 15, 2003, 6:00 AM
Post #31 of 69
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It's kind of funny. hroldan just asked about what drill to buy and then it turns into an overbolting thread.
Trad is awesome ther is no doubt about it.
Anyway back to the drill thing.
I started with the hand drill and it took me 20 min's per hole. Then I bought a cordless and oly took me a minute or less.
I have the same drill as jds100. The Dewalt 24v hammer drill.
Probably the best for the money. It cost about $300 and $100 for an extra battery.
Go 24v or more with a drill. 18v will not be up to the task. I was able to drill 9 bolts 2.5" in with 2 batteries in ryolite rock. And you need a hammer drill or rotohammer drill if you are bolting. Rpm's just mean burntout bits and no progess without the rotohammer action.
The Dewalt has the advantage in wieght and size to fit into a pack. And is easy to be hiked with. It also has a switch for a normal drill and works well around the house. So at least it will get used if you don't plan on putting up routes anymore.
Hilti and Bosch make rotohammers that are far superior than the Dewalt. And are well worth it. But they are also alot more expensive too.
Last. Drill responsibly. Its not just you that is going to be climbing this route. Don't overbolt and use pro when you can.
Have fun and later....
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mungeclimber
Mar 15, 2003, 6:36 AM
Post #32 of 69
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Bosch Annihialator 24v - heavy, but you can drill a shitload of holes before the battery goes out. So if Top-down, definitely the way to go. Ground up (where power drill is allowed) if you can modify the drill to put the battery on a backpack with a holster, that would be the most ideal.
Ground up with a full bosch sucks to fall.
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bigdan
Mar 15, 2003, 7:11 AM
Post #33 of 69
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In reply to: sorry if i misunderstood your comments.
sorry if i misexpressed them.
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leec
Mar 31, 2003, 7:38 PM
Post #34 of 69
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In simple engineering terms a high amp/hour, pneumatic, rotary hammer is the most effective drilling tool you are looking for. Both the Hilti TE-6A and the Bosch Annihilator are proven. The Hilti has the edge on endurance - at a price. But there are killer deals out there.
If you're putting bolts in, do it properly with the right kit. In other words, practice where it doesn't matter.
It might be your life on it, not just some bozo a few years later.
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mozea
Mar 31, 2003, 7:45 PM
Post #35 of 69
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"advices" is not a word...
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hroldan
Mar 31, 2003, 8:36 PM
Post #36 of 69
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Registered: Mar 7, 2002
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ehhhh????? :twisted:
try here:
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/advice
or try google: 3,810!!! is not a word????
MAN!!! don't you have anything to do!! (?)
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rideandclimbkid
Mar 31, 2003, 9:14 PM
Post #37 of 69
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heres how i bolt...buy a 3/8 long drill bit for stone...buy a roll of friction hockey tape. wrap the bit leaving both ends and the threads exposed...i now have a hand drill with a tacky handle
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theooze
Mar 31, 2003, 9:35 PM
Post #38 of 69
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They tell me that Bosch also looked at going to 36V like the Hilti, but decided against it on the basis of weight. Hilti's are beautiful tools, but the Bosches are like half the list price. My Annihilator has many hundreds of holes in our very hard local sandstone (where hand drilling is next to impossible). It's had one major repair, cost $125 I think.
I say, you don't have to get the Porsche. The VW works fine. The Chevies (DeWalt) probably won't hold up.
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merlin
Apr 16, 2003, 11:27 AM
Post #39 of 69
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umm, the Hilti is sweet, tried it out the other day, but also look at Bosch, and the DeWalt i have heard pretty good things about from people, but something no-one has mentioned is panasonic make a pretty nice hammer drill... looks pretty cool. just go with what suits you best.
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granitegod
Apr 16, 2003, 11:36 AM
Post #40 of 69
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Registered: Jan 21, 2003
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My 2 cents:
if you don't know what drill you need, will you know how to safely place bolts?
If you've never developed an area, will you know how to develop a climb?
If not, find someone who can show you! Nothing worse than manky, poorly placed or poorly located bolts that aren't where they need to be.
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cdb1386
Apr 17, 2003, 5:03 PM
Post #41 of 69
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Registered: May 1, 2001
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What about this one?
http://www.boschtools.com/Tools+and+Accessories/Tools/prod_detail.htm?item_no=11524
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cdb1386
Apr 17, 2003, 5:06 PM
Post #42 of 69
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In reply to: What about this one? http://www.boschtools.com/Tools+and+Accessories/Tools/prod_detail.htm?item_no=11524 |
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timstich
Apr 23, 2003, 11:33 AM
Post #43 of 69
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In reply to: They tell me that Bosch also looked at going to 36V like the Hilti, but decided against it on the basis of weight. Hilti's are beautiful tools, but the Bosches are like half the list price.
I'll vouch for that. I bought a Hilti TE 6A and really wish I had gotten the Bosch Annihilator. The battery alone for the Hilti is $300, which is about what the damn drill costs. I built my own batteries, so no big deal. But it would be nice to be able to use a stock battery once in a while to do other things. The home wired rig is just not elegant, if you know what I mean.
Buy the Bosch.
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rockhead26
Apr 23, 2003, 1:42 PM
Post #44 of 69
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Registered: Jan 25, 2001
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I've used a 14.4V Walter hammer on sandstone repeatedly. No problems, solid holes, as deep as needed, though it may be slower than the jackhammers others have recommended. Small, quiet, unobtrusive.
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bolthappy
Apr 23, 2003, 2:33 PM
Post #45 of 69
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If you don't have lot's of time and money you really don't want anything to do with putting up routes. You won't get any better at climbing, 90% of climbers will like what you are doing the other 10% will flame you and chop your routes. If this has not deterred you read on.
Try hooking up with a local route setter and help put up a few routes, most would appreciate some free cleaning. Do your first routes at the most outback crag you can find and be prepared to go back and do some chopping and cleaning, drill your holes deep so you can easily fix bad bolt placements.
Cheap bolt gun ???? Don't bother buying a drill unless it's up there in quality like the Bosch Annihilator, Bulldog, or Hilti. You can find a deal on these guns, Rebulit by Bosch, used, or at pawn shops. The catch with bolt guns is the batteries, they are expensive, bulldog $175, Annihilator $250, Hilti $250 to $300 each. You can pick up a used 24V with bad batteries cheap, don't pay more than $200 bucks and turbo it. Don't buy anything that is not 24V .Bosch Bulldog: weak, Bosch Annihilator: good deal for tha money, Hilti : the best but too expensive.
Rules of bolting:
If its not your route don't mess with it. Be prepared to take criticism and fix, and clean your routes, don't put up dime store routes, use stainless steel bolts with manufactured hangers and anchors, only a classic is worth the time and money.
HAPPY BOLTING
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trekker
Apr 23, 2003, 3:06 PM
Post #46 of 69
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I use a Hilti TE-6A in my work and I think it works fantastic drilling bolts. It is very expensive but the company paid for it and I get to loan it out if I need to. I've seen others in our popular granite quarry putting up routes using Hilti 36V drills as well.
I concur with quite a few of the others here. Bosch works fine too but Hilti has a hefty price tag. But if you ask me, I don't think I will put my personal money down on a Hilti drill just to put up routes on a personal basis... it's very expensive including the parts as well. Remember the spare battery, drill bits etc. And that doesn't include the battery adapter to have your batt on a belt or in a small backpack. Just my 2 cents.. :)
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hishopper
Apr 23, 2003, 3:14 PM
Post #47 of 69
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Registered: Jan 10, 2002
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I agree with trekker and pywiak - the Hilti is sweet.
One note of caution: HomeDepot and similair stores are selling cheaper consumer versions of Dewalt and other products that look and feel exactly the same as the professional models.
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bolthappy
Apr 23, 2003, 3:58 PM
Post #48 of 69
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I have an xtra battery for the hilti TE5A 24V like new, $100 I think it fits the TE6A also
bolthappy@hotmail.com
I work construction, every time they bring out a Dewalt tool it breaks and is way weak. Hilti kicks ass but man thats a lot of $$$$ I like Bosch and Ryobi when it's my $$$$$
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joens
Apr 23, 2003, 6:41 PM
Post #49 of 69
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Registered: Apr 21, 2003
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I don't know much about climbing I am just getting started . But I do know a bit about drills through work .someone mentioned making sure the drill bit is exactly the same size as the bolt .I have run into that several times finding out either the drill bit or the bolt is a little off and even though they both say the same size the hole is either too big or too small for the bolt. I would test it on a rock in the back yard first . it would be bad to climb all the way up with the drill to find the bolt wont tighten up in the hole.
Joens
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smkyrobinson
Jun 9, 2003, 11:26 PM
Post #50 of 69
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Registered: Jun 3, 2003
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My Hilti Te-6a has gone as many as 45 holes 3/8 by 4" in good limestone, the thing is way more efficient and comfortable to use and the battery charger actually works, My annihillator was great but with the 3.0 ah battery I was only getting like 15 holes tops in good rock.
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