|
punk
Dec 16, 2003, 8:38 PM
Post #26 of 103
(7969 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 28, 2002
Posts: 1442
|
In reply to: "outdoor enthusiast" now that makes me giggle :lol: Is that kinda like being "outdoorsy" ?
Yeah mr hardman Alpine climber :roll:
outdoor enthusiast- thats all I am
|
|
|
|
|
cryder
Dec 16, 2003, 8:46 PM
Post #27 of 103
(7962 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 14, 2003
Posts: 391
|
In reply to: But for the alpinist, the route is the goal. Alpinists sometimes do not bother with the summit.
By modern definitions of climbing, an important distinction.
The more I climb, the less relevant the summit becomes. Its really tough to qualify that principle for people who don’t climb. At times Alpinism seems diametrically opposed to the very name of what we do; "climbing". And yet, in our culture of climbing we measure by what is climbed, implying the pursuit of success by emphasizing completion. Alpinism is an anomaly that values an ethic over achieving... its climbing for the sake of climbing. And all obstacles that should otherwise detract from the pursuit, stand only to enhance it. No wonder climbers seem so eccentric to the masses.
- n -
|
|
|
|
|
capn_morgan
Dec 16, 2003, 8:56 PM
Post #28 of 103
(7962 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 7, 2003
Posts: 565
|
some people really need to lighten up a bit. I agree that labels on their own are of no value, but that having an identity is not a bad thing.
that...and if we didnt differnetiate between trad/sport/boulder etc etc climbers we wouldnt have very much to argue about here now would we :twisted:
Alpinism ....or its currently generaly accepted defianition is what best describes my ethics/aspirations in climbing. What defines me is what I do, how I handle myself in the mountains and out, and how I interact with other people.
T-A=0 :wink:
|
|
|
|
|
janr
Dec 16, 2003, 9:10 PM
Post #29 of 103
(7962 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 12, 2003
Posts: 31
|
In reply to: Alpinism is an anomaly that values an ethic over achieving... its climbing for the sake of climbing. And all obstacles that should otherwise detract from the pursuit, stand only to enhance it.
No, it's still about achieving. It's just that the focus has changed a little bit. Instead of just getting to the top any way you can, now the idea is to get up something in a more difficult, and arguably more aesthetic, way. It's a natural progression, historically speaking. It's a common progression for many climbers too, to go from peak bagger to route bagger, although lots of us indulge in both pursuits.
In basic mountain climbing the object is to reach the summit by any or the easiest route possible. In rock climbing it's not really necessary to reach a summit; the game seems to amount to finding the most difficult ways of getting nowhere. ---Warren Harding
Warren was talking about rock climbing, but I think you could substitute alpinism and the same would hold.
|
|
|
|
|
cryder
Dec 16, 2003, 9:16 PM
Post #30 of 103
(7962 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 14, 2003
Posts: 391
|
IMO, it does value ethic over achieving. Achieving is still important, but the experience often takes precedence.
|
|
|
|
|
punk
Dec 16, 2003, 9:20 PM
Post #31 of 103
(7962 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 28, 2002
Posts: 1442
|
In reply to: Alpinism is an anomaly that values an ethic over achieving... its climbing for the sake of climbing.
Like I said it is all about the label...the more decoration your title has the more hardman U R :roll:
Why giving a degrees to climbing as a genera...don’t everyone climb for themselves for their own achievements souping that with seemingly intellectual remark is just dipping sh!t in candy
Climb for yourself it makes no difference to the world, and certainly the label wont help it is all about your own boundaries
Who cares? Go out and climb
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Dec 16, 2003, 9:23 PM
Post #32 of 103
(7962 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
In reply to: And all obstacles that should otherwise detract from the pursuit, stand only to enhance it.
Right, the hazards are the objective.
In my own world, I don't think of myself as an alpinist. If you were to ask me on the climbing street what kind of climber I am, alpinist may in fact be the last thing mentioned.
It isn't easy being an alpinist in California, for starters. And another thing, I don't often do the alpinism thing. It's not like I go out day after day alping.
There is a 3rd level of 'mountain climber' to my way of thinking, the entry level for some, the epitome for others and that is peak bagging. That is the climbing activity I associate with 'hiking a peak.' I'm sorry, but I reject utterly that categorization of mountaineering.
Norman Clyde is perhaps the best example I can imagine of a mountaineer. And if you think Norman "hiked" those Sierra peaks of his, more Sierra first ascents than anyone in history, then I suspect you have not done many of his climbs (if any)!
On some days I am a peak bagger and I like nothing better than a 5000 foot hike up some 1st or 2nd class scramble.
On fewer days I am a mountaineer, taking on technical problems enroute to the summit.
And on a precious few days I am an alpinist, purpoisely taking on difficulties for the sake of the difficulties (and bragging rights later in the bar of course). The left couloir is sort of a romper room alpine climb in that respect.
So yeah, I'm a climber. I climb things. One of my most respected partners, Kevin, once described me to a mutual acquaintance. He referred to me as an alpinist. I have to admit, I was pleased that this very gifted and far more capable climber than I (and 15 years younger to boot) granted me this most trad of titles, as I'm sure the word never slipped from my tongue in his presence.
And yet, I also laughed. Imagine me, an alpinist? No way!
And then I realized... WAY. Alpinism is where you find it.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
janr
Dec 16, 2003, 9:29 PM
Post #33 of 103
(7962 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 12, 2003
Posts: 31
|
Fair enough. Of course the word alpinist will not be so easily pinned down by our pet definitions, whether they are what we think the majority of climbers believe the word means or just how we wished they'd use the word. Instead, it will continue to be used in different and sometimes contradictory ways. This is one of the things that's wonderful about words.
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Dec 16, 2003, 9:34 PM
Post #34 of 103
(7962 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
In reply to: Instead, it will continue to be used in different and sometimes contradictory ways. This is one of the things that's wonderful about words.
Word.
Dude.
The other wonderful thing about words like this is they give us something to talk about.
Or we could all just turn off our computers.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
cryder
Dec 16, 2003, 9:43 PM
Post #35 of 103
(7962 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 14, 2003
Posts: 391
|
In reply to: Or we could all just turn off our computers. DMT
Heretic.
|
|
|
|
|
janr
Dec 16, 2003, 9:49 PM
Post #36 of 103
(7962 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 12, 2003
Posts: 31
|
I just meant that I feel uncomfortable leaning too hard into my own view of what alpinism means, or what I feel it means or should mean or whatever. The word carries many connotations and who am I to select some and discount others?
Norman Clyde as mountaineer vs. peak bagger is a good example. I think he was unabashedly both of these, sometimes obviously one or the other and on other occasions he was both of them at once. You could toss the word alpinist at Norman too and I'm sure it would stick.
|
|
|
|
|
tradguy
Dec 16, 2003, 10:18 PM
Post #37 of 103
(7962 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2002
Posts: 526
|
I would consider Alpinists to be a subset of Mountaineers - a sort of specialty within the group. Kind of like boulders be a specialty within rock climbing. I've done alpine style climbs, but still consider myself a mountaineer.
|
|
|
|
|
hugepedro
Dec 16, 2003, 10:24 PM
Post #38 of 103
(7962 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 28, 2002
Posts: 2875
|
Fred Beckey is a climber.
There has long been a sentiment in mountaineering that the means is the end. It's about the journey (and what it takes to make it) more so than the goal. So I disagree with the idea that Alpinism is somehow separate from mountaineering in that regard.
I think that both terms are interchangeable, and I'll refer to the bible as proof. Mountaineering: The Freedom of the Hills. Everything that's been written as being in the realm of Alpinism is covered in that book.
The only distinction I make in my use of the two words depends entirely on my audience and the context of the subject. When talking about vertical climbing, and/or if my audience is someone who is primarily a rock climber (or perhaps dabbles in water ice), then I might refer to alpine climbing, or a particular route as an alpine climb, because that has specific meaning to them in that context. (Other than that, it can be used to describe a style, as in, "we're going to climb it alpine style" as opposed to "expedition style" - fast, light, and overnight.)
I prefer to just call it all climbing.
|
|
|
|
|
dredsovrn
Dec 16, 2003, 10:30 PM
Post #39 of 103
(7962 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 24, 2003
Posts: 1226
|
I thought it was primarily the smell. Maybe I am thinking or something else though.
|
|
|
|
|
mother_sheep
Dec 16, 2003, 10:35 PM
Post #40 of 103
(7962 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 18, 2002
Posts: 3984
|
In reply to: I thought it was primarily the smell. Maybe I am thinking or something else though.
Which directly relates to who pees in the tent and who doesn't.
My attempt at humor.
Carry on. Good thread!
|
|
|
|
|
moeman
Dec 16, 2003, 10:37 PM
Post #41 of 103
(7962 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 1, 2002
Posts: 1417
|
Testicle size
|
|
|
|
|
alpinestylist
Dec 16, 2003, 10:46 PM
Post #42 of 103
(7962 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 22, 2002
Posts: 193
|
Mountaineering= which tent?
Alpinism= what tent?
I think climbing is climbing, but only on my great days do I feel alpine worthy. It is about the means, the style, the day. It can come back and bite you in your ass too. Tune in and send?
T-A=0
|
|
|
|
|
climbsomething
Dec 16, 2003, 11:00 PM
Post #43 of 103
(7962 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 30, 2002
Posts: 8588
|
Good read, this thread. and my own label is "sport climber." :P I want to contribute some witticism too, but I don't think it's quite my place. So keep posting, alpineers, so I can keep reading.
|
|
|
|
|
jhump
Dec 17, 2003, 12:36 AM
Post #44 of 103
(7962 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 7, 2002
Posts: 602
|
This is just plain gross, but...
Alpinists defecate in the tent in a ziplock bag. Mountaineers hold the alpinist's Nalgene bottle tripod as a support crew. Sometimes it is just too nasty to go out and do the business. Keep a mountaineer around just for this purpose. Remeber to allow the mountaineer to pack it out.
|
|
|
|
|
punk
Dec 17, 2003, 1:12 AM
Post #45 of 103
(7962 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 28, 2002
Posts: 1442
|
In reply to: Alpinists defecate in the tent in a ziplock bag.
Never saw or heard about it....what u afraid to freeze your wee wee...but about cleaning the mess it is a different story...
In reply to: Remember to allow the mountaineer to pack it out.
You pack it out regardless of your "Alpine" label and how eminent your ego is it is your mess don’t put it in someone else’s water supply
|
|
|
|
|
sandbag
Dec 17, 2003, 1:17 AM
Post #46 of 103
(7962 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 12, 2003
Posts: 1443
|
Water Supply? Ever heard of Mountain Goats, Bears, Elk, etc? who isnt pooping in the water supply. jeesh.
|
|
|
|
|
jhump
Dec 17, 2003, 1:38 AM
Post #47 of 103
(7962 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 7, 2002
Posts: 602
|
But my alpine label and eminent ego could not possibly allow me to carry my own waste. Gasp. I am the elite of elites...an alpinist, and should be treated with the dignity my attainment commands.
Seriously punk, I can count on you to scrutinize my most sarcastic and over the top posts. I just thought I would take this method-of-going-potty-as-defining-one-as-a-climber thread to the next level. Poopin in a tent- that's impossible. 8) Only the scourge of the earth would do such a thing.
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Dec 17, 2003, 1:45 AM
Post #48 of 103
(7962 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
In reply to: But my alpine label and eminent ego could not possibly allow me to carry my own waste.
Frickin A! It's not like anyone but another alpinist is going to encounter that turd anyway, and she'll understand!
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
punk
Dec 17, 2003, 1:46 AM
Post #49 of 103
(7962 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 28, 2002
Posts: 1442
|
In reply to: punk, I can count on you to scrutinize my most sarcastic and over the top posts. .
Thanx...yours truly Punk
In reply to: I just thought I would take this method-of-going-potty-as-defining-one-as-a-climber thread to the next level. Poopin in a tent- that's impossible. 8) Only the scourge of the earth would do such a thing.
Yeah we only calling them AID climbers
|
|
|
|
|
punk
Dec 17, 2003, 1:59 AM
Post #50 of 103
(7384 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 28, 2002
Posts: 1442
|
In reply to: Water Supply? Ever heard of Mountain Goats, Bears, Elk, etc? who isnt pooping in the water supply. jeesh.
Yep, once they will allow me making a fine meal out of you I will agree that you don’t have to curb after yourself
But since you belong to a species of higher intelligence (hardly evident in your case) it is required that u will take a responsible action for your deeds
|
|
|
|
|
|
