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glencoe
Mar 1, 2004, 12:45 AM
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HI---I am trying to find out if your gym requires belayers to use ATC devices or grigris. Also anyone know af accidents involving ATCs??? Anyone know the belay training policies at their gyms??
Thanks In Advance :roll:
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jpearl
Mar 1, 2004, 1:11 AM
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Generally, I've found that gyms which cater to a newbie or leisure climber crowd tend to have GriGri's. This is also the case for gyms that are only out to make a buck (sadlly, they do exist). Gyms that cater to the more experienced climber will either allow for the choice of GriGri or ATC based on climber preferance and what gear they have. I've also climbed at ATC-only gyms.
My gym is GriGri only, given it's small size, short routes, and crowd that ranges from noobies and leisure-types to hard-core Gunk climbers. Some gyms, as I mentioned earlier, are simply out to make a buck and want to get people on and off the wall and to the cash register, which is done quicker with a GriGri. Other gyms aim to foster top-notch belay skills, and thus require ATCs, ATC testing, and ATC certification prior to climbing.
I don't know of any accidents personally, though I was almost in one once myself. I was climbing with a friend who has a very "ho-hum" attitude and lowered me as such with a GriGri, dropping me about ten feet onto a thick crashpad. I have not and will not climb with that person any more. It's always a good point to find out a person's experience with a belay device and even to watch them belay someone else first before climbing with them.
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hoofers_andy
Mar 1, 2004, 1:14 AM
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In reply to: This is also the case for gyms that are only out to make a buck (sadlly, they do exist).
Who ever heard of a business founded with the intent to make money. That is such a crazy concept...
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redpiton
Mar 1, 2004, 1:19 AM
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My gym has 75% grigri's and about 25% open ropes where you provide your own method of belaying... be it with your own ATC, Grigri or an ATC that the gym provides for you.
I feel that GriGri's develop bad habits, however someone that is only trying climbing for the first time and isn't all that serious may want the added insurance of an auto-locking belay device.
The safety and effectiveness of belaying, no matter what method or device used, is only as good as the instruction by gym employees. period.
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jpearl
Mar 1, 2004, 1:34 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: This is also the case for gyms that are only out to make a buck (sadlly, they do exist). Who ever heard of a business founded with the intent to make money. That is such a crazy concept...
Yeah ,yeah, I know. All gyms do need to be profitable to stay open and provide their services. This is just from personal experience where some gyms could care less what your belay experience was beyond the gym as long as you can belay with a GriGri indoors, pay, and climb. Other put an emphasis on the belay skills that will extend beyond the gym to the crags where belaying is of the upmost importance in terms of safety. Each gym will make a buck either way, but not all of them will work with you to prepare you for real rock.
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somethingaboutclimbing
Mar 1, 2004, 1:35 AM
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My home gym is all about ATC, which I personally perfer however it has resulted in at least one accident.
I was climbing with my friend who was/is a competent belayer and she was ancored into the floor. I slapped at the top hold of a 30ft route and peeled off. She was pulled forward and tripped over the daisy chain anchoring her to the floor. She instinctivly moved her hands out of lock position to stop herself from falling and by the time she realized what had happened I had already hit the floor after about 25ft of free fall. We were both shaken but the gymnastics pads on the ground did their job and I walked away with nothing more serious than a rugburn on my right arm.
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coldclimb
Mar 1, 2004, 2:57 AM
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The local gym here uses ATCs, but they won't stop you from using a grigri if you want to (I think).
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wildduck
Mar 1, 2004, 3:27 AM
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There are 2 big gyms in Malaysia, one of them is at Genting Highlands and it uses gri gri only belay. Not a fun place to go if you're a beginer. The beginer walls are also quite hard and 75% of the walls there cater to experienced climbers.
The other gym is the nomad climbing gym at Summit USJ. This gym teaches new guys now to use a fig of 8 to belay. All the rented gears are fig of 8's. So when you have enough cash, get something diff and use it in the gym. Most of the climbers there have their own Atc's and Fig 8's.
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jonthorpe
Mar 1, 2004, 3:38 AM
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In reply to: The local gym here uses ATCs, but they won't stop you from using a grigri if you want to (I think).
It would be silly of them to "not let" you use a grigri. It's a safer device. That's the bottom line.
If your gym isn't using a gri-gri as their main belay system for groups and even for seasoned climbers, then I really have to question their saftey ethics.
Having worked in the climbing industry for quite some time, and being around long before gri-gri's made their debut, I have to say that they are safer. Bottom line. YES - training does effect this, as accidents will happen with any device if not trained properly on. But think of this common scenerio - it happens OFTEN with newbs I find.
"You are lowering your partner with an ATC and the web of your finger catches in the feed because you didnt let your hand 'flow' the rope. You let go in pain and drop your partner." This (along with many other attention related incidents) is much more unlikely to happen with a grigri. period.
If you gym isnt using Gri-Gri's as main devices then there are two reasons.
A - their insurance doesnt get lowered by using updated auto locking safety equipment (if you are a gym owner and this is the case - consult your insurance agency for a break).
B - even if their insurance doesnt get lowered - its still just being CHEAP. They should invest in safety - this is what our sport is all about. And by having climbing accidents as a result, they are hurting every other establishment out there that tries hard to be on top of safety.
thats my more then 2 cents. And dont give me the whole "oh its more dificult to lead someone with a Gri-Gri" - because thats total crap. I have used pretty much every belay device out there - and the gri gri is great for leading, even on fast ascents.
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whitefingers
Mar 1, 2004, 3:58 AM
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*My home gym is all about ATC, which I personally perfer however it has resulted in at least one accident. *
Are you suggesting that the ATC caused this accident? I would not consider anybody that cannot anticipate a fall and the resulting forces from that fall to be an experienced belayer, especially in an environment as controlled as a gym!
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climbingurlie
Mar 1, 2004, 4:27 AM
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My gym requires the use of gri-gris because of the locking feature. Everyone is required to at least know how to tr belay. Unfortunaly, sometimes this criteria isn't met. I've been on the rope before when as I began to climb, my belay took me off belay (without me knowing) and switch the biner around so he was trying to belay me left-handed. Well, he was right handed and couldn't belay. As I was about 20 feet up, my normal partner came around and began yelling at him, told me to get on a couple good jug holds, chalk up, and don't fall. He took me OFF belay and began belaying me himself... Stupid. Another time, I saw a newb belaying someone with the rope in the wrong end of the gri-gri. One guy ended up having to come over and finish belaying the climber with his hands...
Other than those occasional slip-ups, my gym is pretty strict about belaying policies and what you use to belay.
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braaaaaaaadley
Mar 1, 2004, 4:34 AM
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My gym is gay... they wont let me use my figure 8 as a belay device... what is this world coming to?
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scubasnyder
Mar 1, 2004, 4:50 AM
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the gyms close to me have gri-gri's, but i usually use my atc.
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kahuna3602
Mar 1, 2004, 5:59 AM
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Our gym teaches with ATC's and rents ATC's so you actually learn how to belay and don't just pull rope through a fixed anchor Grigri. (manual auto belay perhaps?). If you have your own Grigri and prefer it, for lead, TR is usually too fat, go for it as long as you show us you know how to use it. Figure 8, go for it. We might draw the line at double carabeiners but I've watched a few people try it to learn emergency backup procedures.
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karmaklimber
Mar 1, 2004, 6:01 AM
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Tons of gyms in the Bay Area; some have gri-gris on the rope and are unable to be removed. Other gyms leave it open to the belayer to use either an ATC or a gri-gri.
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sixter
Mar 1, 2004, 6:05 AM
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The gym I go to most often has ATCs mounted on all the ropes. They give you a belay test on your first visit where you ahve to tie a figure 8 knot and show you can properly belay someone with the ATC. They teach the hands down method of belaying, and do a really good job of making sure you understand, and are competent with belaying before they let you out on the ropes. The other gyms in town have grigris mounted on all the ropes, and instead of having to tie in with the rope, you clip in with a locking biner. :shock: They cater to n00bs, birthday parties, and Boy Scouts. Nothing worse than trying to get a good workout in while having kids runing around, or hogging all the bouldering pads.
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roseraie
Mar 1, 2004, 8:04 AM
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In reply to: The gym I go to most often has ATCs mounted on all the ropes. They give you a belay test on your first visit where you ahve to tie a figure 8 knot and show you can properly belay someone with the ATC. They teach the hands down method of belaying, and do a really good job of making sure you understand, and are competent with belaying before they let you out on the ropes. The other gyms in town have grigris mounted on all the ropes, and instead of having to tie in with the rope, you clip in with a locking biner. :shock: They cater to n00bs, birthday parties, and Boy Scouts. Nothing worse than trying to get a good workout in while having kids runing around, or hogging all the bouldering pads.
Wow, this very very well could be Vertical Hold vs. Solid Rock. Are you a San Diegan?
I definitely have not seen any trend (except for here in San Diego) in the relationship of a gym's choice of belay devices and its tendency to cater to "n00bs." But as people have already pointed out, gyms are BUSINESSES. The alarming trend that I *have* seen is that the gyms that cater to the birthday party crowd often do NOT HAVE MANDATORY BELAY TESTS. That *scares* me very much.
Meg
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crazyname
Mar 1, 2004, 9:31 AM
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I'm from the Vegas area (Las Vegas) and the gym I clib at requires the use of GriGri's. I know a lot of climbers out there are still hard core traditionallists but I have to agree with the GriGri idea. For one, it is a safer device (although not idiotproof) and I almost met an unortunate early demise at the hands of an experienced belayer using an ATC. My incident happened shortly after the ATC was introduced (maybe a year and a half after) and I was climbing in beatifull American Fork ,Utah. I slapped for a hold at the top of a route and came peeling off, I kept falling and falling and falling....I finally came to a stop about 15 feet off the ground after falling 25- 35 feet. I looked down to see my belayer with wide open eyes and a look of fear eminating from his shaken body. Apparently when I went for the hold I peeled off of he thought I was making a clip. When I started falling it caught him by surprise and he didn't have control of the rope since he was feeding it out at the time. Luckily he wasn't following every rule and he was standing on the other end of the rope which arrested my fall. I came away shaken and luckily with my life. He walked away with major rope burns, a shattered ego and gave up climbing shortly after.
To this day, even on trad routes, I refuse to let anyone belay me with anything less than a grigri. It is a sense of confidence and a way that I can think only about climbing, not what my belayer is doing (chatting, socializing, sleeping,taking a poo). The future lies in self locking belay devices and I'll be the first on the bandwagon. Our sport will continue to progress and belay devices will be among the first to revolutionize both safety and ease of use.
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wildduck
Mar 1, 2004, 10:23 AM
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Yeah, gri gri's are safer than ATC... but still, if you put an idiot on belay, they'll still drop ya by releasing the rope too fast. I've leant that nothing beats an experienced belayer. =)
climb safe man
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taino
Mar 1, 2004, 12:21 PM
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[quote="jonthorpe"
It would be silly of them to "not let" you use a grigri. It's a safer device. That's the bottom line.
Not necessarily.
Gri-gris tend to allow sloppy belaying to be developed, as everyone knows that they're fool-proof right? Why bother keeping your attention on your climber if you KNOW that the gri-gri is going to catch them no matter what, right?
It's not the gri-gris fault - it's the belayer's fault. If you train someone properly on either an ATC or a gri-gri, they're both safe devices - but I wouldn't say that one is better than the other. I personally despise using a gri-gri.
To the original question:
I recently climbed at a gym where you had to tie in the climber, anchor yourself, demonstrate a command of the communications necessary, take up rope in an approved fashion, and catch FOUR falls - two looking at the climber, and two looking away. I thought it was an excellent test, because even at the best of times, in the best of circumstances, something might happen that requires you to glance away from the climber - or, perhaps you start getting belayer-neck. I don't think it's a standard test, though.
T
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mheyman
Mar 1, 2004, 12:44 PM
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In reply to: a Grigri. It's a safer device.
I've seen as many people get hurt by being dropping with a Grigri during lowering as I have seen people being dropped with an ATC. I don't think Grigris are safer. There are good ways to set up TR's in a gym without resorting to a Grigri. I prefer to see tubers used for belay, no floor tie in, and a double wrap around a pipe at the top. Three of four gyms in my area both use this method. The fourth gym uses Grigris for TR's.
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drrock
Mar 1, 2004, 12:56 PM
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cthcrockclimber
Mar 1, 2004, 1:37 PM
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The wall that I work at has ATC's supplied or you can bring in your own, but in order to climb you need to take a test or the basic course
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tomtom
Mar 1, 2004, 9:06 PM
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I have a membership at Stone Gardens in Seattle. Their policy is BYOBD. Most people use tube type belay devices.
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petsfed
Mar 1, 2004, 9:24 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: a Grigri. It's a safer device. I've seen as many people get hurt by being dropping with a Grigri during lowering as I have seen people being dropped with an ATC. I don't think Grigris are safer. There are good ways to set up TR's in a gym without resorting to a Grigri. I prefer to see tubers used for belay, no floor tie in, and a double wrap around a pipe at the top. Three of four gyms in my area both use this method. The fourth gym uses Grigris for TR's.
I've actually been to a gym that wouldn't let me use the gri-gri because the staff didn't know how to operate one(!!!!). Lucky I had my reverso with me to pass the belay test. Needless to say, I didn't rope up while I was there and haven't been back since.
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