|
|
|
|
snod_ix
Apr 12, 2004, 2:37 PM
Post #27 of 70
(4305 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 6, 2002
Posts: 63
|
In reply to: I find the term "trad climbing" insulting. I think we should start a grass roots effort right here and now to re-identify the different types of rock climbing. I propose "real climbing" and "sport climbing"
I feel that both types of climbing have their place. I climb because I love to climb, and no clipping bolts is not the same as leading a splitter crack. Truth of the matter is climbing has evolved. The first everest ascent part deposited tons of trash in crevases. Climbers today would freak out *or should* at the very though of this kind of environmental destruction. At any rate, sport climbing is here, and no matter how much b*tching is done its not gonna go away. If you don't like sport don't climb sport, but don't flame those who do. having said that I don't believe in retro-bolting FA tradlines or cracks, if a route goes up trad. it stays trad. Some friends and I are currently developing a new crag, we have 42 trad lines up now, all ground up first ascents, and if anybody bolts one of my lines, i'll be the first to chop em. I clip bolts at the new, but i also lead trad in north carolina where runouts are the rule, not the exception.
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Apr 12, 2004, 2:46 PM
Post #28 of 70
(4305 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
In reply to: but I can't bring myself to call someone a "trad climber" unless they are placing gear (FA excluded).
Peter Croft is a trad climber?
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
micronut
Apr 12, 2004, 2:47 PM
Post #29 of 70
(4305 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 11, 2002
Posts: 1760
|
In reply to: Trad climbing or Traditional climbing refers to climbing a route that is protected by placing gear on lead.
Not quite rokshoxgumb, trad. is ground up, period. Trad. also means not being able to just say "take" when you've had enough.
|
|
|
|
|
robmcc
Apr 12, 2004, 2:53 PM
Post #30 of 70
(4305 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 1, 2003
Posts: 2176
|
Definitions change, ya know.
To some people, like me, trad does imply placing gear and an absence of bolts. I'll accept that this is not a historically correct definition. I'll even accept that it's probably just plain wrong, but when I hear "trad", that's what comes to mind. I claim that this is a much more useful definition. What I really care about is what kind of gear do I need, and do I agree with the ethics of the climb? I'm not a fan of bolts, so showing up at a trad climb to find a line of bolts isn't going to make me happy, regardless of how they were placed.
I think we need some new terminology.
Rob
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Apr 12, 2004, 2:58 PM
Post #31 of 70
(4305 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
The roots of trad climbing lie in mountaineering. One doesn't usually repect a mountaineer who climbs peaks by way of heliocopter. No. A mountaineer is pretty much expected to climb the mountain from somewhere near the bottom to somewhere near the top.
A trad climber is a person who starts at the bottom of a climb and climbs to the top, without benefit of having prepared the route from the top down (either personally or through proxy). Trad climbing can include various climbing styles, such as free solo, free climbing and aid. As previously mentioned, protection systems are ancillary to the idea of ground up climbing.
A sport climber is a person who doesn't feel compelled to follow the mountaineering tradition. Maybe bouldering is the mother of sport climbing, quien sabe. Chris Jones certainly attributes a bouldering mentality to the creation of the first sport routes at Smith Rock.
But the idea of top down route preparation is certainly a hall mark of sport climbing.
Around here, we do both kinds... country AND WESTERN.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Apr 12, 2004, 3:00 PM
Post #32 of 70
(4305 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
In reply to: I'm not a fan of bolts, so showing up at a trad climb to find a line of bolts isn't going to make me happy, regardless of how they were placed. I think we need some new terminology. Rob
New terminology? Try this one... "guidebook."
By using the device represented by this terminology one can hopefully show up at a trad climb sans bolts.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
robthebuilder79
Apr 12, 2004, 3:31 PM
Post #33 of 70
(4305 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2004
Posts: 12
|
To me Trad and Sport climbing is a difference of mental approach. Trad climbers will sit at the base of a climb for hours on end mentaly following every crack and possible line on the wall. Much time is spend by the trad climber mentally working the problem before one ever clips or setts the first anchor. Sport climbers will sit at the base for maybe twenty to thirty minutes untill they have visualy located all listed bolts, and a few newly added ones, and mentaly logged their locations.
You see, a trad climber has to hold yourself in the most obscure positions with one hand while trying to find the piece of pro that will fit the crack in front of you. A sport climber just has to hold on long enough to clip and hook. and then is onto the next move.
Not to start a fight but I find that I think less about potential fall danger when I'm sport climbing, and more when I'm placing my own gear. I enjoy Trad, sport, and boldering equaly and am not trying to bash one or the other. They each require there own style of climbing and technique, and are each just as tuff as the other. the only difference is the mental state you put yourself in before you approach the line.
|
|
|
|
|
thegreytradster
Apr 12, 2004, 4:34 PM
Post #34 of 70
(4305 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 7, 2003
Posts: 2151
|
In reply to: The roots of trad climbing lie in mountaineering. One doesn't usually repect a mountaineer who climbs peaks by way of heliocopter. No. A mountaineer is pretty much expected to climb the mountain from somewhere near the bottom to somewhere near the top. A trad climber is a person who starts at the bottom of a climb and climbs to the top, without benefit of having prepared the route from the top down (either personally or through proxy). Trad climbing can include various climbing styles, such as free solo, free climbing and aid. As previously mentioned, protection systems are ancillary to the idea of ground up climbing. A sport climber is a person who doesn't feel compelled to follow the mountaineering tradition. Maybe bouldering is the mother of sport climbing, quien sabe. Chris Jones certainly attributes a bouldering mentality to the creation of the first sport routes at Smith Rock. But the idea of top down route preparation is certainly a hall mark of sport climbing. Around here, we do both kinds... country AND WESTERN. DMT
To amplify on this a little, Traditional climbing (crag climbing) is a dimunition of Mountaneering, originaly seen as a way to build the rockcraft skills needed to push Mountaneering standards.
Bouldering is a futher dimunition of crag climbing, originaly seen as a way to build skills for aplication to routes. Aid, another subset. All three became their own game.
Traditional climbing retains a more "mountaneering" attitude.
Sport, I'd agree also is a development of bouldering, with similar attitudes.
Trad Climber, "You are only as good as what you can on sight on a consistent basis involving all techniques, face, crack, OW, etc. (un pre prepared route)
Sport climber, "You can claim to be as good as what you can finaly send." (regardless of number of attempts and pre equipment)
|
|
|
|
|
goober
Apr 13, 2004, 2:26 AM
Post #35 of 70
(4305 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 19, 2003
Posts: 108
|
Very well said DINGUS!
-nathan-
|
|
|
|
|
jv
Apr 13, 2004, 2:51 AM
Post #36 of 70
(4305 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 26, 2003
Posts: 363
|
In reply to: To me Trad and Sport climbing is a difference of mental approach. Trad climbers will sit at the base of a climb for hours on end mentaly following every crack and possible line on the wall. Much time is spend by the trad climber mentally working the problem before one ever clips or setts the first anchor.
JV
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Apr 13, 2004, 3:00 AM
Post #37 of 70
(4305 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
[begin Twighlight Zone Theme music]
In reply to: To me Trad and Sport climbing is a difference of mental approach. Trad climbers will sit at the base of a climb for hours on end mentaly following every crack and possible line on the wall. Much time is spend by the trad climber mentally working the problem before one ever clips or setts the first anchor. Sport climbers will sit at the base for maybe twenty to thirty minutes untill they have visualy located all listed bolts, and a few newly added ones, and mentaly logged their locations. You see, a trad climber has to hold yourself in the most obscure positions with one hand while trying to find the piece of pro that will fit the crack in front of you. A sport climber just has to hold on long enough to clip and hook. and then is onto the next move.
[/Twighlight Zone Theme music]
In what universe are you climbing/smoking?
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Apr 13, 2004, 3:16 AM
Post #38 of 70
(4305 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
In reply to: Trad Climber, "You are only as good as what you can on sight on a consistent basis involving all techniques, face, crack, OW, etc. (un pre prepared route) Sport climber, "You can claim to be as good as what you can finaly send." (regardless of number of attempts and pre equipment)
I agree with this. I have sport climbing friends (don't tell anyone) that spout some pretty impressive numbers. I put them on a mid 10 trad climb and they are toast. Thing is, if all the gear were fixed and they worked the route just as in sport, they'd get it in about as many tries as sport. On the very few occasions that I have sport climbed I don't find the same to be true. I find that I am onsighting 2-3 letter grades harder. Well that's according to the book, but soft sport ratings are another thread!!
|
|
|
|
|
coylec
Apr 13, 2004, 5:42 AM
Post #39 of 70
(4305 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 12, 2003
Posts: 2024
|
dingus's explanation is the best statement of the subtle differences i've heard here.
awesome.
coylec
|
|
|
|
|
on_sight_man
Apr 13, 2004, 6:06 AM
Post #40 of 70
(4305 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 11, 2002
Posts: 628
|
Trad climbing is when you pull on gear. Sport climbing is when you
pull on draws...
|
|
|
|
|
kalcario
Apr 13, 2004, 6:43 AM
Post #41 of 70
(4305 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 25, 2002
Posts: 1601
|
*I agree with this. I have sport climbing friends (don't tell anyone) that spout some pretty impressive numbers. I put them on a mid 10 trad climb and they are toast. Thing is, if all the gear were fixed and they worked the route just as in sport, they'd get it in about as many tries as sport. On the very few occasions that I have sport climbed I don't find the same to be true. I find that I am onsighting 2-3 letter grades harder.*
Dude...of course the sport routes are easier grade-for-grade than the trad routes, you can always climb harder with fixed pro than without. Your mid 10 trad route is probably 5.7 with all the gear fixed, whereas the 5.12 sport route, even with the draws on, is still 5.12. Once your sport buds get a little crack technique, though, which takes about 4 hours on the rock to master if you're already a good sport climber (like Alex Huber and about 50 other Euros who have freed El Cap with ZERO trad background), who do you think will be trad climbing harder, them or you? Based on what's been happenning on El Cap the past few years, I'd say them.
What non 5.14 sport climber has freed the Salathe headwall? One guy from the Bay Area, as far as I know, and he worked it like a sport climb for years before he pointed it. Get a clue.
|
|
|
|
|
cgailey
Apr 13, 2004, 8:13 AM
Post #42 of 70
(4305 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 6, 2004
Posts: 585
|
This is good stuff...thanks for the insane amount of clarification on the intricacies of trad/sport :D
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Apr 13, 2004, 2:39 PM
Post #43 of 70
(4305 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: Trad. also means not being able to just say "take" when you've had enough.
It depends. If you're climbing a crack, you can usually put in a piece and "take" just about anytime you want. Try that between bolts on a sport climb. I got a nice 12d for you at Echo.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
shakylegs
Apr 13, 2004, 2:50 PM
Post #44 of 70
(4305 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 20, 2001
Posts: 4774
|
In reply to: Trad climbing is when you pull on gear. Sport climbing is when you pull on draws...
Beautiful! Unfortunately, in my case, also true.
|
|
|
|
|
gunked
Apr 13, 2004, 5:40 PM
Post #45 of 70
(4305 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 1, 2002
Posts: 615
|
This is one of the funniest topics I've read in a while. Not the topic, per say, yet the posts are cracking me up. :lol: :lol: :lol: I've been laughing non-stop since the Twilight Zone Theme!
FIRST : Can't we all just get along and agree to disagree? Hmn? Can we? Hmm?
SECOND : It seems to me that any definition (and I use that term loosely!) in the climbing world is opinion at best. And yes, even the guidebook authors'. 'Definitions' are (on a good day)a general user-friendly consensus designed to give people a general idea of what they may be dealing with.
That said, I'm not going to add my opinion of the definition of trad climbing as it's a combination of what has already been spoken.
Robthebuilder79 : That was freakin' hilarious. It reminded me of descriptions of professions that a 1960's school-room text-book might have to "Better prepare our children for the future" or something. I thought that the reason that I hung around the base for that length of time was because I was lazy. :roll:
-Jason
|
|
|
|
|
coylec
Apr 13, 2004, 5:51 PM
Post #46 of 70
(4305 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 12, 2003
Posts: 2024
|
gunked has a great point. Exams in 3 weeks means my brain is fried, but here's a random thought:
ideal-type
WHat's an ideal type, you ask? Its from Max Weber (pronounce Veber), one of the classic sociology authors. A definition is an ideal-type -- its a set of characteristics that define something (i.e. an ideal type for a phone would include buttons, a microphone, a speaker et al).
Weber though ideal types were useful not because they reflected reality, rather, they were useful because they allowed you to see how reality was different from the ideal-type. Those differences are what make everything interesting.
not everything is going to fit inside a box.
coylec
ps - i'm so amazed this discussion has been civil.
|
|
|
|
|
mtnbkrxtrordnair
Apr 13, 2004, 9:09 PM
Post #47 of 70
(4305 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 11, 2003
Posts: 267
|
[quote="kalcario
Your mid 10 trad route is probably 5.7 with all the gear fixed, whereas the 5.12 sport route, even with the draws on, is still 5.12. .
Why don't you come to the Gunks, then you'll realize that the mid 5.10 trad route you're talking about is still mid 5.10 even on top rope, and to you it will fell like 5.12 if you try to lead it trad. get a clue
*like Alex Huber and about 50 other Euros who have freed El Cap with ZERO trad background*
Oh yea, and if climbing with 50ft. runouts like the Hubers is not trad regardless of the gear, then what is it?
|
|
|
|
|
andypro
Apr 13, 2004, 9:55 PM
Post #48 of 70
(4305 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 23, 2003
Posts: 1077
|
In reply to: Once your sport buds get a little crack technique, though, which takes about 4 hours on the rock to master if you're already a good sport climber (like Alex Huber and about 50 other Euros who have freed El Cap with ZERO trad background), who do you think will be trad climbing harder, them or you? Based on what's been happenning on El Cap the past few years, I'd say them.
This brings up two questions, neither of which are meant in an inflamatory manner.
First, about the euros with no trad experience or background...Are you sure about this? Is this an actual fact or is this speculation on your (or someone elses) part due to the bulk of what is reported about them? Just curious.
Second, you really think it'll only take 4 hours to master crack technique? Ask Randy Leavitt how long it took him to master his. Ask anyone whos ever flailed on any offwidth how long it takes to master crack technique. Supposedly, in 4 hours, I should be able to cruise any 5.12+ crack.....Again..not meant to be inflamatory, just comments and questions.
|
|
|
|
|
thegreytradster
Apr 13, 2004, 10:25 PM
Post #49 of 70
(4305 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 7, 2003
Posts: 2151
|
In reply to: First, about the euros with no trad experience or background...Are you sure about this? Is this an actual fact or is this speculation on your (or someone elses) part due to the bulk of what is reported about them? Just curious. Second, you really think it'll only take 4 hours to master crack technique? Ask Randy Leavitt how long it took him to master his. Ask anyone whos ever flailed on any offwidth how long it takes to master crack technique. Supposedly, in 4 hours, I should be able to cruise any 5.12+ crack.....Again..not meant to be inflamatory, just comments and questions.
I think a little investigation would show that the Hubers had an extensive trad and :shock: even alpine background that goes back to a very early age.
Last year we were on The Consolation at Tahquitz. there was a party of euros wandering up just to the right of the first pitch of The Gulp, a pretty impressive face climbing performance. They started up the 5.8 chimney on The Swallow and proceeded to get completely spanked. The leader saw the belay anchor on the Constellation 5.12a and escaped to that after a 1/2 hr of wrestling with the chimney. It wasn't a matter of not wanting to do it, they clearly couldn't. The second even tried it on a TR. The leader crused the 12a bolted face and the second did it with a couple of falls.
Now, the question is, were they less than 5.8 climbers, (couldn't do a 5.8 chimney) or 5.12 climbers?
|
|
|
|
|
jv
Apr 13, 2004, 11:49 PM
Post #50 of 70
(4199 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 26, 2003
Posts: 363
|
*like Alex Huber and about 50 other Euros who have freed El Cap with ZERO trad background*
In reply to: Oh yea, and if climbing with 50ft. runouts like the Hubers is not trad regardless of the gear, then what is it?
Excellent point. I have pointed this out in the past but it seems that some prefer to assume that if a climber is from Europe, he doesn't have trad ethics. There was an article in Climbing a few years ago. I think Jeff Achey wrote it. It was a profile of Alex Huber, and it showed him 30 feet out on overhanging limestone. Why so far? He couldn't stop to place a bolt. He went on to disparage sport climbers. I will find it and quote from it. Suffice to say, you don't have to forsake traditional ethics to climb high numbers . . . at least not if you are incredibly determined, or incredibly gifted.
JV
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
