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madyak
Apr 14, 2004, 3:28 AM
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I suppose that this makes sense, but it's not something that I expected to run into after getting married, and don't really know how to deal with - anyone's thoughts on appropriate action would be appreciated.
My wife is a beginning climber (I got her into it while we were dating and it is something that she actually enjoys doing) and we have a lot of fun climbing together and with my various climbing partners, but recently a problem has developed - she's become jealous of one of my climbing partners, who happens to be female as well and single (we'll call her Jane). My wife is jealous of Jane's climbing ability and Jane's impressive outdoor adventure experience. She's also jealous of the Jane's physical appearance (which is silly to me, because, well I don't know how to say this without sounding like a objectivist male, but my wife is the best looking woman I have ever or will ever run into). More importantly, she is jealous of the time that Jane and I spend together when we go climbing, and has hinted that she is afraid of Jane and I falling for each other.
I've tried telling my wife that I have no romantic feelings for Jane and that I honestly don't think of her any differently than I do of my male climbing partners (I'm not saying that Jane is manly in any way, it's just that after I started dating my wife 3 years ago, I haven't seen any other woman in the same light, nor will I). She also, I hope, has gotten the conveyance from Jane that she has no interest in me either.
Is there any way that I can make my wife happy in this situation or must I tell one of my friends that I simply can't hang out with them any more (pun not intented)? I've succesfully had other female friends in different situations, i.e. at work, and not had this problem, so what is it with this situation?
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rockcanyonjunkie
Apr 14, 2004, 4:24 AM
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This is a tough situation. Although your relationship with jane is obviously inoccent (to you), your wife can have no way of being totally sure of that. Even the most beautiful woman will get jealous of another woman spending time with her man. I don't think you need to completely stop climbing with jane. You should, in my opinion, do things to show your wife that you are serious about wanting to make her comfortable with the situation. Maybe take your wife climbing more often, be sure not to go climbing alone with jane, that sort of thing. I think if your wife sees that you are trying to compromise she wont insist that you totally stop climbing with your friend. If you let it become an all out fight, however, you will likely lose your friend. Also be sure to say to your wife the kinds of things you said about her in your post, that will make her more comfortable as well.
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crazygirl
Apr 14, 2004, 3:16 PM
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In the past, if my climbing partner's wives or girlfriends got jealous, I stopped climbing with them. The whole thing of someone being jealous of me made me very uncomfortable. I know that there is nothing to be jealous of, but its still uncomfortable, and not the position I’d like to be in. In some cases our friendship has ended, too.
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robmcc
Apr 14, 2004, 3:40 PM
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In reply to: She's also jealous of the Jane's physical appearance (which is silly to me, because, well I don't know how to say this without sounding like a objectivist male, but my wife is the best looking woman I have ever or will ever run into).
You don't sound like an objectivist male. You do sound like someone making what I call "forever statements". Forever is a much shorter time than you may think. Appearance is also really not all that important. Your wife probably realizes that even if she's Miss America, if someone else makes you happier, she may have a problem on her hands. People don't stay married because the wife's a knockout. They stay married because they're happy, or at least happy enough.
In reply to: More importantly, she is jealous of the time that Jane and I spend together when we go climbing, and has hinted that she is afraid of Jane and I falling for each other.
Well...such things DO happen, you know. I suggest you take a real close look at your relationship with your climbing partner and ask why your wife is jealous of her, but not your other female friends. Does your wife see something that you won't let yourself see?
In reply to: I've tried telling my wife that I have no romantic feelings for Jane and that I honestly don't think of her any differently than I do of my male climbing partners
Right now, anyway. Maybe you never will, but like I said, it happens.
In reply to: (...it's just that after I started dating my wife 3 years ago, I haven't seen any other woman in the same light, nor will I).
Forever?
In reply to: She also, I hope, has gotten the conveyance from Jane that she has no interest in me either.
Things sometimes change. Even things you think will never change or can never change.
In reply to: Is there any way that I can make my wife happy in this situation or must I tell one of my friends that I simply can't hang out with them any more (pun not intented)?
What is important to you? Do you have a happy, healthy marriage that you want to protect? If so, talk to the wifey. Is she so bothered by your relationship with Jane that she'd ask you to stop? If not, but she's clearly really stressed over it, consider stopping anyway. The stress this injects into your marriage might create more problems than you want.
Now, if your marriage is unhappy or failing AND you're willing to let it end, that's a different story.
Rob
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holdplease2
Apr 14, 2004, 4:22 PM
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Just get a different climbing partner.
And if you are unwilling too, ask yourself why.
(that might be a good start, anyway)
Sure, a good partner is hard to find...but it is harder to find a good wife.
I'm not saying that a married guy and a SF cant' climb together platonically. But I have seen a large number of these relationships are really about the guy having another good looking, entertaining, tallented woman to spend time with to ad a little spark to his life...whether anything physical comes of it or not. And the female actually likes hanging with a guy who isn't "allowed" to hit on her.
Being such an incredibly sweet tallthinyoungblonde (not) and irresistable belay-hottie have been on the "jane" end of these relationships many times. After a while, it will start to suck for Jane, too. She may start to feel like the other women, whether you really are or not! :cry:
Honestly wishing you best-of-luck with this situation.
-Kate.
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wigglestick
Apr 14, 2004, 4:27 PM
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Back in the day I was married to this woman. She had many male friends from work and other social activities. She would play golf with them and go out after work with them and had a lot of fun with them. Most of them never concerned me (and many of those were much better looking than me, etc) but this one guy always made me uncomfortable. I had no reasoning for it but my spidey sense started tingling whenever his name was mentioned or I saw him. I expressed my concerns to my wife and told her how I was feeling. She reassured me that there was nothing to worry about, and that the guy I was worried about was happily married to somebody else. And that I was the only guy she could ever look at and blah blah blah. I put my concerns on the back burner and ignored them because I trusted her and didn't want to let my own insecurities get the best of me.
5 months later I was moving out of my house and sleeping on a buddy's couch. We never were able to work things out because she basically didn't want to try. We filed for divorce and low and behold this other guy decided at the same time to divorce his wife. He moved in with my ex 2 weeks after we filed for divorce and is still living with her now.
At what point their friendship became something more I will never know, or really want to know. But it happens. At one point we thought we were the perfect couple. My only solace is that the guys ex wife is making him pay out the ass for alimony, and I got away with my dog, all my climbing gear, and a more realistic outlook on love. I don't really have any awnsers, just food for thought.
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tavs
Apr 14, 2004, 4:34 PM
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There's one aspect of this that no one has mentioned, and that's the climbing part. You mentioned briefly that your wife hasn't had any problems with other female friends or coworkers. I wonder if, given what seems like the disparity between Jane's and your wife's climbing experiences, if that isn't at least part of the issue. It sounds like you are an experienced, long-term, committed climber (ie, the sport is something pretty important to you). Sounds like Jane is also. Your wife, on the other hand, is a beginner (who you say enjoys climbing, but maybe not in the same way or to the same extent as you and Jane).
So, feelings of inadequacy may come more from climbing ability than looks. She may see Jane as someone who shares a high level of passion for climbing with you, and may worry that she (your wife) isn't good enough, dedicated enough, experienced enough to keep up with your interest in climbing, and that maybe, someday, that could be a bigger issue between you. All this, combined with the seemingly inevitable and unavoidable female tendency toward jealousy and worrying about relationships, may be the problem.
My boyfriend recently started to worry about things, because he noticed a pattern--I seemed to have a great time when I went climbing with other partners, and many more frustrating/self-doubting/tears and anguish times climbing with him. I told him that, to the extent that there is a pattern at all, its only because I love and trust him so much and am so completely myself with him, that I wasn't afraid to break down, give up, be weak/scared, etc in front of him. I'm too proud/stubborn to let that happen in front of other people! You have to get your wife to understand the place that climbing has in your life, and the place that she has. From the sounds of your post, the latter is much more important and once she understands that......
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phylp
Apr 14, 2004, 4:52 PM
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I have to vehemantly disagree with all the people who are telling you to get another partner! As an old diehard feminist, all I can say is, this is sexist bull. I am a woman who has been climbing with men other than my husband for 20 years. I've never been attracted to my other male partners. If I ever DO become attracted to one of them, or if one of them ever started to hit on me, THEN I'll stop climbing with them. That is MY responsibility to keep my marriage stable and happy. Should he stop going to work everyday because there are women there whom he might be attracted to? Yes marriages break up but it's not because of proximity. It's because people decide to become dishonest with each other and with themselves about what they are really thinking and feeling.
Spending lots of time away from your spouse IS hard, when you love them. The real issue is making a choice between time together with your wife, and time alone or with others. The two of you need to work out the proper equilibrium for that or someone will end up really resenting the other one.
If your wife loves the outdoors and wants to climb, mentor her to the point where she can climb with a partner of her own, at a closer level to hers. Then the four of you can do climbing trips together and you will have your wife's company. Or you and your partner can find a third person at your level and do stuff as a party of three. That's often more fun anyway.
Good luck with this issue guy - it's not easy.
Phyl
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robmcc
Apr 14, 2004, 5:18 PM
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In reply to: Most of them never concerned me (and many of those were much better looking than me, etc) but this one guy always made me uncomfortable. I had no reasoning for it but my spidey sense started tingling whenever his name was mentioned or I saw him.
Bingo. I think that's important. Why is your wife concerned by "Jane", and only "Jane"? She may not even know, but I'm absolutely convinced that we do see and pick up on sometimes extremely subtle signs.
Rob
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kimmyt
Apr 14, 2004, 5:33 PM
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It's true. I've known many guys that are completely unaware when a woman is interested in them. SO maybe your wife is picking up on the fact that this Jane is kinda into you? And maybe she's afraid she'll move in on you.
Of course, I'm not saying that is what's going on, it's just a possibility. Either way, it seems like you should be having this discussion with her and not with a board full of Internet strangers.
Good luck, buddy.
K.
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robmcc
Apr 14, 2004, 5:39 PM
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In reply to: Either way, it seems like you should be having this discussion with her and not with a board full of Internet strangers.
Sometimes talking with people with some distance (in this case, a lot) from the situation is good. The wife is not going to be objective. She probably feels threatened, is jealous but doesn't want to be and probably doesn't want to appear as jealous as she really is.
Definitely do talk to the wifey, but listen to what people who have been down this path have to say. Don't necessarily do what random people on the 'net tell you, but take the stories into account in your decision.
In reply to: Good luck, buddy.
Seconded. FWIW, I think you'll be fine. As long as you want to be.
Rob
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keithlester
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Apr 14, 2004, 5:44 PM
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Decide which is more important, your marraige or climbing with "Jane". Answer your own question. Give up one or the other :)
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calamity_chk
Apr 14, 2004, 5:44 PM
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Having been on every possible angle of the jealousy thing, it sucks all the way around. I've lost male friends because new gf's were jealous of my friendships with them, I've lost bf's because one or the other of us got jealous, and I've had to walk away from friendships that were important to me because friend and bf didnt get along. It sucks.
A few things that I've learned from these experiences:
a) discrediting or invalidating your wife's concern will make the problem get worse.
b) jane will be pissed if you stop the friendship
c) your wife will be be pissed if you dont
d) from the femme perspective, your decisions will place "value" on these relationships, whether you want it to or not.
e) jealousy is negative and complex - and given enough time will destroy otherwise good relationships. sometimes it's well-founded, other's it's not. regardless of its merit (or lack thereof), i've seen it ruin more than one wonderful relationship when not addressed.
f) my guess is that there are issues that run deeper than jane's impressive outdoor experience here. if it were me, and my marriage were on the line, i'd be talking to a marriage counselor instead of a bunch of goofballs on a rockclimbing website, but that's just me.
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robmcc
Apr 14, 2004, 6:41 PM
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In reply to: d) from the femme perspective, your decisions will place "value" on these relationships, whether you want it to or not.
From the male perspective, too, actually.
In reply to: ...a bunch of goofballs on a rockclimbing website...
I resemble that remark. ;)
Rob
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diana
Apr 14, 2004, 6:47 PM
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Seriously, good luck. This is a tough situation. Who knows whether you or Jane might develop feelings for each other in the future? There's something terribly intimate, IMO, about a good climbing relationship. When you utterly trust that your belayer will keep you physically safe and vice versa, that's deeper than any after-work-socializing relationship.
Just my opinion. Like others have said, if you're crazy-happy with your wife, maybe you should cut back on Jane time. If you don't, it'll grow and grow until you and your wife are fighting about it way more than either of you thinks is appropriate.
Good luck.
Diana
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rvega
Apr 14, 2004, 7:04 PM
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Its obvious you and your wife love each other. And while Jane may have nothing on your wife in terms of that love, she does have something on your wife in terms of your climbing. You spend time with her because you share a similar passion. This passion can become an issue especially if you spend long periods of time with Jane. Woman often feel that they have be everything for a partner. She's not fulfilling that passionate part of your life, and some other woman is. I'd be jealous too. And jealousy can lead to serious insecurity and relationship issues. My advise is to include you wife in the activities with Jane as much as possible and I agree with another poster that long trips with only Jane are not really a good idea. If the jealousy does not subside I'd start looking for another partner, a male one.
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gretchino
Apr 14, 2004, 9:30 PM
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In reply to: Its obvious you and your wife love each other. And while Jane may have nothing on your wife in terms of that love, she does have something on your wife in terms of your climbing. You spend time with her because you share a similar passion. This passion can become an issue especially if you spend long periods of time with Jane. Woman often feel that they have be everything for a partner. She's not fulfilling that passionate part of your life, and some other woman is. I'd be jealous too. And jealousy can lead to serious insecurity and relationship issues. My advise is to include you wife in the activities with Jane as much as possible and I agree with another poster that long trips with only Jane are not really a good idea. If the jealousy does not subside I'd start looking for another partner, a male one.
RVega, you beat me to it. I completely agree with RVega here. I've felt this insecurity your wife feels. I'm not anywhere close to my boyfriends climbing ability, however I do climb with him a lot. I like to feel included. Even if I don't climb the entire route with him, I still can participate. When he does his boy trips away I'm not nearly as upset as when he does a boy trip plus one (female). It has nothing to do with how good or bad looking I am or how good or bad looking she is, it has more to do with an other woman participating in a sport my that boyfriend is passionate about without me.
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winter
Apr 14, 2004, 10:04 PM
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My main climbing partner is married. I talk to his wife all the time, we laugh and have a great time. I think their marriage kicks ass because she climbs occasionally but mostly they have seperate activities and are happy doing that. If she were jealous that would suck, I hope that she's not.
I prefer not to climb with my boyfriend (when I have one) so guess that I would not have issues with him climbing with some other girl while I climb with my prefered partners.
I do know though, that jealousy sucks, and ANY jealous notions I've had in my million experiences with boys have been dead on accurate. They have always been interested in or left me for said girl. I trust my instincts on that implicitly, I have the ultimate in spidey sense. So what I am trying to say, is look really hard at Jane and make sure your wife isnt' seeing something that's really there.
After my experiences, the minute I get jealous I walk on a relationship because it is the worst possible way to feel.
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matisse
Apr 14, 2004, 10:11 PM
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Jealousy and insecurity are hard things to deal with no matter which side of the equation you are on. You mentioned that your wife is a new climber, and Jane is very experienced. Others have commented that this may be why Jane evokes these feelings in your wife or that perhaps your wife is picking up on subtle hints that you are not aware of.
The bond one feels with a good climbing partner is a powerful thing. One constructive way to deal with the situation might be to have your wife do some climbing with Jane if both are interested and you can swing it in a way that neither feels pressed into it. Maybe some weekend when you are tied up, your wife is free, and Jane wants to get out.
It is a lot harder to be jealous of a friend, that someone you only know in passing. Climbing together would help them become more comfortable w/ one another. Of course they might discover that they like climbing w/ each other more than with you, and you'll be out 2 partners rather than 1.
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rvega
Apr 14, 2004, 10:36 PM
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In reply to: It is a lot harder to be jealous of a friend, that someone you only know in passing.
Here here! This is very true. My boyfriend/partner and I spend several months apart due to our jobs. The first year we were together I got extremely jealous of his boss, simply because he spent so much time with her while he was away. Granted that was part of his job. When they returned from their second trip he suggested we all hange out together, do things (like climbing and camping) together, and become friends. The more and more I got to know her the more and more I got to liking her and the jealousy totally disappeared. Getting to know Jane may be the perfect thing to help out the situation.
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jt512
Apr 14, 2004, 10:53 PM
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In reply to: One constructive way to deal with the situation might be to have your wife do some climbing with Jane if both are interested and you can swing...
This is starting to sound good.
In reply to: Maybe some weekend when you are tied up.
Even better.
-Jay (sorry, couldn't resist)
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moabbeth
Apr 15, 2004, 1:51 AM
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In reply to: f) my guess is that there are issues that run deeper than jane's impressive outdoor experience here. if it were me, and my marriage were on the line, i'd be talking to a marriage counselor instead of a bunch of goofballs on a rockclimbing website, but that's just me.
DING DING DING!!! Good advice Amber.
You've only been together as a couple 3 years, how long have you actually been married? 3 years as a couple just even dating is NOTHING in the big picture. If there's already trust issues with her and jealousy issues, there's more to it and will be in the future and you should be looking into why.
Your wife got into climbing when you first started dating.....so in three years she has not progressed or shown the same passion and interest in it as you do. Now along comes a woman who does have that passion and ability you have. Your wife is jealous of your sharing a passion with another woman. She doesn't share it...but her man has a connection to another woman that she doesn't have. So she's insecure naturally.
It's not fair of her to ask you to sacrifice a great climbing partner over her own insecurity and jealousy.....those emotions are her OWN problems to deal with (hello therapy), that is unless you do something to really give her a reason to actually be jealous or insecure. Jealousy is a GREAT tool for causing the destruction of perfectly normal happy relationships. And it is not an emotion that goes away, this situation will repeat itself even if you ditch Jane.
Either you need to start involving wife into you AND Jane's climbing activities so she can see she has nothing to be worried about (like someone said above, if they become friends it's hard to be jealous of a friend) or you're going to have to stop climbing with Jane....until ANOTHER Jane comes along (and she will) and this jealousy cycle repeats itself.
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kellie
Apr 15, 2004, 2:35 AM
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In reply to: I am a woman who has been climbing with men other than my husband for 20 years. I've never been attracted to my other male partners.
Wow. You must be superhuman. I've only been climbing for four years and I've already lost count of the number of male partners I've been attracted to. Taking any action based on it was ruled out in most cases, but attraction? Oh yeah.
kellie
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sapphire
Apr 15, 2004, 3:22 AM
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so, some random thoughts based on my own jealous tendencies...I don't really know the specifics of your situation or what it is that gnaws at your wife, so take what you will (if any at all...)...
- I agree you should definitely invite your wife to climb with you and Jane specifically, but also with your other partners as well, as she might like to be more included in your climbing life in general (and might not want to always hang out w/Jane.
- If you are climbing with both wife and Jane, be aware of how much time and attention you spend on Jane and your wife. My first bf had a friend who had a huge crush on him and he'd invite me along whenever they hung out...but I might as well not have been there 'cause they'd just flirt w/each other the whole time. :evil: For him, it was just harmless flirting and I knew he wouldn't do anything with her, but I thought it was hella rude and disrespectful on both their parts. It's been almost 10 years and I'm still slightly bitter about it. :wink: (yeah, yeah, I should get over it already...)
- Watch out how much you tell your wife how awesome Jane is. Spewing all the accomplishments Jane did after a day of climbing in a tone of awe and admiration might be a little tough to take. It is for me when I'm jealous of someone. The last thing I want to hear my s.o. talk about is the chick I'm jealous of and how great she is, ya know? Especially in an area where I'm not as good. I'm not saying you have to leave out the details of route difficulties or cool maneuvers, but just watch the tone...
*** And be sure to tell your wife how awesome she (your wife) is. She hears all the good things about your climbing partners, but she likely never hears all the good things you say about her to others.
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sapphire
Apr 15, 2004, 3:49 AM
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oh, one other thing...I tend to get jealous in a relationship when things aren't going so well or I don't feel so close to my s.o. A lot of times the jealousy really isn't about the other woman, but more about the fact that I feel some space starting grow between me and my bf and it's scary. Throw in another woman who seems to developing a close(r) relationship with him and boom...jealousy rears its ugly head. It all happens rather subconsciously (unconsciously?), but when I find I'm jealous, it's a pretty good sign that something is wrong and I have to figure out what. Often I just need more quality time...
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