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happyfra
Jan 26, 2005, 7:20 AM
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In reply to: Please people, lets get out and go climbing! :lol: Happyfra, you just don’t have a clue what you are talking about; you don’t understand epistemology, ad-hoc reasoning, or creationism (which is not a subject traditionally studied by epistemologists anyway). Because the issues being argued here are much more complicated than they are being presented, I’ll refrain from offering any arguments of my own. I’ll just say that GOD IS AWESOME! I think religious climbing groups are a great idea. :D
Oh, by the way, in the case you did not notice, my argument was taken almost literally from the text of a conference given by the late Sir Popper. I did a summary, but i trust myself in doing that even if i don't have a clue on epistemology... 8^) So... do you want to go to heaven (where he surely lives now) to tell him that he doesn't have a clue on epistemology too? I wouldn't dare that, but you surely could... 8^) 8^) 8^)
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climbinginchico
Jan 26, 2005, 9:11 AM
Post #127 of 322
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In reply to: To what degree of sickness do I have? This is all I ask? What about the doctor who doesn't mention to his patient that he possibly has a heart condition known as myocarditis because his insurance company won't cover that. Is that doctor sick? What about the Marine General that had to train Osama Bin Laden and the rest of the Afgan people that subsequently formed AL-Queda while our government knowingly knew he was a radical Islamic, but it was all too convenient in fighting the russians. Was/Is our government sick? What about the British military that cracked a German code, but allowed mulitple small villages to be ambushed and destroyed to keep the secret that the British cracked one of the German codes. Are they sick? What about the Priests that used their HOLY religion as a means to screw little boys. Are they sick? I am not sick, you're sick for beliving that taking God into someone's life will save them. The problem with religion is people. People always mess it up. If Christianity allowed for direct communication between their god and a person without ANY need for the system that is the church, priest and pope, people would be a lot better off.
Those specific instances you mention have nothing to do with you. Trying to say that you are not sick because you don't do things like that.
I personally haven't seen or heard of any of the priests who molested little boys saying that God told them to do so. It is a personal weakness that leads to stuff like that, no matter what religion (or lack thereof) one subscribes to.
You obviously have put no effort into understanding Christianity. The saving we speak of is not a literal physical saving of one's life, though that has happened. It is the saving of one's immortal soul that is the point. Try doing some research, then you might have a credible point of view. Currently, you make fallacious arguments of logic with no factual basis or correlation to the topic at hand.
You completely miss the point of Christianity. It's a personal relationship with God, with Jesus. I don't need the "system" to be a Christian, it's not that which makes one a Christian. It is living a life striving to be Christ-like, loving others no matter what. That is what a true Christian is.
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happyfra
Jan 26, 2005, 9:56 AM
Post #128 of 322
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In reply to: Happyfra, if you in fact know a great deal about Catholicism, which just being Italian doesn't cut it, then you would understand that the Catholic Faith holds, as evidenced by scripture, that it is not through faith alone, or works alone, that humans are saved. It is through both. Along with being washed of original sin, and believing in God, you must also live a life in accordance with God's desires, and a pretty good place to go to figure that out is the Bible. I would be interested in hearing your reasoning for calling God evil, though. I think that it might come out of anthropomorphizing God, applying human attritbutes to what is Divine. edited to include: I wonder if you have ever read much, or anything by C.S. Lewis. He makes some wonderful, well-thought out arguements for believing in God. Also, I don't mean anything by my comment about you being Italian, other than exactly what I said. Just as being American doesn't make me an expert on the Protestant Movement, which is a big part of America's founding principles.
Abalch, I apologize but my previous post was written in a hurry and necessarely not so complete. I appreciate your answer and I'll try to explain myself better.
By the way, I was educated in a Catholic family and I studied comparated religions as part of my curriculum at the university, and i did continue to read and study christian philosophers like Tommaso d'Aquino and Agostino for many years now, so i hope i do have at least a general knowledge of the whole subject.
Now, my general idea about god is more or less that either:
1 - he's a kind of a semi-god, not perfect as christians (and muslims, and jews, and...) believe
2 - he doesn't exist
3 - he's absent, therefore irrelevant, therefore equating case 2
Now, it seems to me that the most interesting case is 1, so let's get to it. There are several arguments about it: is god affected by humans' actions? can god be in a bad mood as shown in the bible so many times? can something perfect even change? You're probably familiar with the fact that christian philosphers fought for centuries agains all the antinomies related to the attribute of perfection. It was used as a lame attempt to demonstrate its existence (if god is perfect, therefore it has all the attributes, including existence (sorry, it is very rough, but this is more or less the so-called onthologic demonstration of the existence of god according to Sant'Anselmo d'Aosta)). Now... something perfect can include any contradition? And without contradition how can any change happen?
What god was doing before creating the world, and human beings? Why did he do that?
Honestly, i find extremely hard to conciliate the idea of perfection with all these logical challenges.
Finally... tell me if you agree, but i believe that perfection should include, among other attributes, equanimity. That means to consider the real, the world as a continuoum, which is hardly compatible with your yet well argumented point of the invincible ignorance. i can't believe in a god that has to create all these categories and sub-categories to evaluate our actions and our beings, it seems pretty grotesque to me.
Final thought... let's consider another case of "invincible ignorance", of somebody growing in a tribe far away, where cannibalism and horrible cruelties are accepted, approved and part of the mainstream culture. A good citizen of that civilization who dies after having performed his fair share of torturing, raping, killing... would he go to the heaven?
Honestly, i don't believe in god and i tend to believe that as soon as you see the things in a larger picture the need of god fades away, but if there is a god out there somewhere, it doesn't seem a very nice guy to me... :wink: :wink:
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tradman
Jan 26, 2005, 10:29 AM
Post #129 of 322
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In reply to: "You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake You are the same decaying organic matter as everything else We are all part of the same compost heap We are the all singing, all dancing, crap of the world"
Fight Club isn't real, you know. It's humourous fiction. Chuck Palahniuk doesn't really think that violence is a solution, that's a joke, the central joke of the book.
I really hope you're not basing your life around a joke you didn't get.
:?
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numptyboy
Jan 26, 2005, 11:04 AM
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O.k. I'll bite, T hell with deep meaningful what if's. I would honestly like an answer to the following question:
If God is all powerful, all knowing (i.e. knows everything about the past present and future as we understand it) then isn't free will an illusion, God already knows every single person who believes/will believe and those who don't/won't. So isn't the whole act of faith predetermined by god and so a pointless exercise. Sorry I'll get to the point An omnipotent being can not give us free will because it already knows the result. Is my logic screwed up? probably.
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happyfra
Jan 26, 2005, 11:13 AM
Post #131 of 322
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In reply to: O.k. I'll bite, T hell with deep meaningful what if's. I would honestly like an answer to the following question: If God is all powerful, all knowing (i.e. knows everything about the past present and future as we understand it) then isn't free will an illusion, God already knows every single person who believes/will believe and those who don't/won't. So isn't the whole act of faith predetermined by god and so a pointless exercise. Sorry I'll get to the point An omnipotent being can not give us free will because it already knows the result. Is my logic screwed up? probably.
Actually it is not, at all. This is another of the problems that haunted christian philosophers for centuries. They didn't get to any good answer. The most used, to my knowledge is: "we don't know how it works, but since god said that he's omnipotent AND we're free, this must be true".
Not very satisfactory to me.
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lumpy
Jan 26, 2005, 12:25 PM
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I haven't read this thread, probably won't either, but I remember one funny thing I heard the other day from some famous stand up comedian. As the say, in comedy lies the truth.
"I can disprove everything about creationism and the bible in one word. Do you know what that word is?"
..
....
.......
"Dinosaurs." "You would think that somewhere along the way from old testament to new testament the bible would have mentioned Dinosaurs."
Well it goes on and on and is really quite funny.
-Pat
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jammer
Jan 26, 2005, 2:20 PM
Post #133 of 322
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In reply to: In reply to: I believe that being a Christian is to be Christ Like. This is a personal relationship, an inward change that will bring an outward change that people will see. I hope not to be offensive, but I have to say that something I find honestly very funny about Christians is their huge presumption... and I mean HUGE. To have a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with god? Jesus Christ... A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD???
Come on... I have hard times to have decent personal relationship with people of intelligence slightly above the average because they find me not so interesting, and I found myself not so interesting either... and god should wish to have a personal relationship with me? It seems to me that you guys have a very weird idea of god... It is so... It seems so... artificial? Like if it was actually... invented by men?
Even though I do not walk the walk, I do believe in God and in the fact that anyone can have a personal realationship with him. I also believe that most people won't because they put Him in a small box and tell Him that this is what He is. If God is the Creator of everything there is, then who are we to tell Him what He is or is not??? With our little brains, we try to figure out who He is and we fall extreamly short if we even get close .... even with the Bible as a guide. God is more then we can ever imagine.
The biggest trouble with humans is that we have to be able to put our finger on things in order to believe. What about the air? We can't see it, but we believe it's there and without it, we die.
Can you give me any scientisific statistics as to the probability of this world becomming what it is with all the creatures on it, placed in a universe where everything is balanced? I don't believe the probablity will be high enough to even be able to calculate.
I'm also courious to how you would answer a question like, "How is everything in the universe held togeather?"
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jammer
Jan 26, 2005, 2:22 PM
Post #134 of 322
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In reply to: In reply to: I believe that being a Christian is to be Christ Like. This is a personal relationship, an inward change that will bring an outward change that people will see. I hope not to be offensive, but I have to say that something I find honestly very funny about Christians is their huge presumption... and I mean HUGE. To have a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with god? Jesus Christ... A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD???
Come on... I have hard times to have decent personal relationship with people of intelligence slightly above the average because they find me not so interesting, and I found myself not so interesting either... and god should wish to have a personal relationship with me? It seems to me that you guys have a very weird idea of god... It is so... It seems so... artificial? Like if it was actually... invented by men?
Even though I do not walk the walk, I do believe in God and in the fact that anyone can have a personal realationship with him. I also believe that most people won't because they put Him in a small box and tell Him that this is what He is. If God is the Creator of everything there is, then who are we to tell Him what He is or is not??? With our little brains, we try to figure out who He is and we fall extreamly short if we even get close .... even with the Bible as a guide. God is more then we can ever imagine.
The biggest trouble with humans is that we have to be able to put our finger on things in order to believe. What about the air? We can't see it, but we believe it's there and without it, we die.
Can you give me any scientisific statistics as to the probability of this world becomming what it is with all the creatures on it, placed in a universe where everything is balanced? I don't believe the probablity will be high enough to even be able to calculate.
I'm also courious to how you would answer a question like, "How is everything in the universe held togeather?"
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toddtar
Jan 26, 2005, 2:32 PM
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In reply to: I'm also courious to how you would answer a question like, "How is everything in the universe held togeather?"
Duct Tape!
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jammer
Jan 26, 2005, 3:02 PM
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The Bible also says that man became so smart he became foolish. Look at the intelligent responses, quoting theories, using million dollar words to show everyone just how smart we are, being able to analyze just about anything and come up with a sound result ...
Yep, humans in general believe they are smarter then God, just by trying to explain God away.
FYI ... foolishness in the Bible means to not believe in God. He saw it coming and this thread is just another piece of evidence on His part.
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refugee
Jan 26, 2005, 4:16 PM
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In reply to: i think that if they can teach evolution, which is a THEORY, not proven fact, then yes, they should teach creationism. not neccesarily as fact, but at least as another theory.
I can't believe there are still people like you who believe this garbage.
Evolution is a theory. Gravity is also a theory. Thermodynamics is a theory.
The difference between these theories and creationism is that evolution, gravity and thermodynamics are theories that are supported with logic, facts and evidence.
Creationism is a theory supported by nothing by right wing beliefs, no hard evidence.
It's a shame that people like you malign truth, science and progress in society because you have a self-righteous belief that YOU are right. Jesus makes you feel good because your lives are too vapid to be filled by more worldly, and therefore, more real things... Seriously, go to hell dude--on your way there, you might want to pick up a copy of National Geographic a few issues ago.
You make me sick--holding back society. Halting progress. Stopping science, medicine, truth all because of your selfish belief structure that, if you take an honest look at it, came out of nowhere.
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jammer
Jan 26, 2005, 4:21 PM
Post #138 of 322
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In reply to: In reply to: i think that if they can teach evolution, which is a THEORY, not proven fact, then yes, they should teach creationism. not neccesarily as fact, but at least as another theory. I can't believe there are still people like you who believe this garbage. Evolution is a theory. Gravity is also a theory. Thermodynamics is a theory. The difference between these theories and creationism is that evolution, gravity and thermodynamics are theories that are supported with logic, facts and evidence. Creationism is a theory supported by nothing by right wing beliefs, no hard evidence. It's a shame that people like you malign truth, science and progress in society because you have a self-righteous belief that YOU are right. Jesus makes you feel good because your lives are too vapid to be filled by more worldly, and therefore, more real things... Seriously, go to hell dude--on your way there, you might want to pick up a copy of National Geographic a few issues ago. You make me sick--holding back society. Halting progress. Stopping science, medicine, truth all because of your selfish belief structure that, if you take an honest look at it, came out of nowhere.
Thanks refugee for proving my above post!
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plund
Jan 26, 2005, 4:53 PM
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"deleted due to duplication"
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plund
Jan 26, 2005, 4:54 PM
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Ever seen the bumper sticker "Keep your laws off my body"?
How about "Keep your religion off my soul"??
or "Keep your God off my case"??
or "Keep your dogma out of public schools"??
Speaking as a lapsed Catholic who chose "Thomas" as my confirmation name....if God is omnipotent why does he care what we do...if omnipotent, why would he demand respect / fear?
Just my two shekels...
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cintune
Jan 26, 2005, 5:07 PM
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In reply to: Thanks refugee for proving my above post!
All that's being proven here is that there's absolutely no arguing with a smug believer. A moot point if there ever was one. So be happy in your faith. You've got your bases covered, and feel free to love and pity the poor sinners who don't keep their personal saviour in their back pockets like a security blanket. You are free to do so. It doesn't make you right, but hey, whatever gets you through the night.
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jammer
Jan 26, 2005, 5:15 PM
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I'll end my stay here on this thread by admitting that even though I do believe in God, I do not follow His teachings. My choice ... yet i will defend His existance, because I do believe. I also believe that science has it's place and will continue do have it. We are all born with brains to expand our understanding, so let's not put existance in a box and claim to know all. Everybody looses when this happens.
Alan
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hopper
Jan 26, 2005, 5:18 PM
Post #143 of 322
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In reply to: I do not hold non-believers to the same standard of morality
Why not? Because you need morality to justify your religion? I believe it is possible to be moral without any religion. Recognizing that "morality" is a very slippery subject, dependent upon just about everything, how can you have "standards" of morality? And what gives you the authority to set those standards?
In reply to: Note I said evolution is unverified, not unsupported.
Nothing in science is ever "verified". Support simply builds up until there is a concensus that the theory is most likely true.
In reply to: Note that, at last I knew, superstring theory was in the same boat. The theory is based on a bunch of observations. ... No, to test a theory you have to look at what the theory states will happen in a case which was NOT part of the observations it was based on. For superstring theory the test is that it predicts the mass of an as-of-yet uncreated subatomic particle. If when this particle is created (I think it's like a +2 proton or something like that... I can't recall off the top of my head) it's mass matches the mass predicted by the theory, then the theory will be verified.
Good analogy. However, there is never one "test" to "verify" a theory. Predictions which later turn out true are considered some of the strongest support for a theory, but as I said, there is no such thing as verification. For anything.
In reply to: As for your other main statement: In reply to: the precision of the universe by no means implies a requirement for an intelligent designer. by that same argument, you could say that our intelligent designer required an intelligent designer as well. and this could go on ad infinitum. I again ask you to look at what I said: In reply to: In explaining this observation, the hypothesis that there was some intelligent design involved is not unreasonable. I never said an intelligent designer was implied. I said the hypothesis that one exists is not unreasonable.
It is not unreasonable, but it is needlessly complicated. No matter how miniscule the chance of the development of humans, it did happen. The fact that we are here debating this means that this miniscule chance did, in fact, occur. Besides that, given the size and time scale of the whole universe, and so the number of times this same process would have been going on, life even as we define it was bound to come forth.
-JB
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voltzwgn
Jan 26, 2005, 5:31 PM
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One thing that keeps coming up is the bible says......
The bible is full of stories passed word of mouth or copied by hand and reinterpedted to say what the person wanted them to say. Or translated from one language to another losing or adding much in the translation. To me none of what exists in the bible today is a first hand account of anything and all that's presented through it's pages is very suspect. Even the bible is not the bible as some versions contain books that others do not..
Think what you want but for me jesus, mohamed, budda and all the rest are one in the same. A knowing god would present his persona to people in a way that works for their culture.
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refugee
Jan 26, 2005, 5:31 PM
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In reply to: Thanks refugee for proving my above post!
you ought to remember that the bible was written by man: if man is foolish, then how are you to take anything in the bible seriously, especially since it has been rewritten a thousand times in different languages, with different texts that say more about the society in which it was written than about historical facts.
My knowledge doesn't presume to be higher than god--I in no way made any statement that I was smarter than god. I merely said that I'm smarter than that other douche who thinks creationism is as valid as evolution.
All that aside, HERE'S MY POINT--which has nothing to do with whether I or you or anyone believes in god or not:
Ignoring the enormous volume of work that has been done to advance our understanding of the world just because a 2,000+ plus year old scripture claims to be right, (and if you don't believe it, you'll go to hell), is a simplistic world view that affects ME because you idiots don't allow for progress in medicine, science, and society.
I'm normally not so livid abuot it, but the fact is, our society has never been so right wing and backwards. It's never been so influential in politics either.
I really hope that Bush can ask his god for advice--like he did for stem cell research--when north korea has nuclear weapons pointed at our country. Are you comfortable with a president who doesn't know how to do anything except pray when disaster looms? Maybe instead of learning about creationism and studying the fcking bible, he should have went to school and learned about diplomacy, international relations and other cultures--the same goes for all you other god folks, unless of course EDUCATION presumes a higher knowledge than god.
Yep, it's best to unlearn yourself less you end up in hell. Praying always works anyway. Just say a little prayer and POOF, you'll have money, a comfortable living, a family that is happy, an understanding of the world...no work required! fcking lazy dumbasses ruining our country...you all suck
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natas
Jan 26, 2005, 5:45 PM
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I agree, all you god lovers facking suck
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natas
Jan 26, 2005, 5:46 PM
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I agree, all you god lovers facking suck.
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tradman
Jan 26, 2005, 6:02 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: O.k. I'll bite, T hell with deep meaningful what if's. I would honestly like an answer to the following question: If God is all powerful, all knowing (i.e. knows everything about the past present and future as we understand it) then isn't free will an illusion, God already knows every single person who believes/will believe and those who don't/won't. So isn't the whole act of faith predetermined by god and so a pointless exercise. Sorry I'll get to the point An omnipotent being can not give us free will because it already knows the result. Is my logic screwed up? probably. Actually it is not, at all. This is another of the problems that haunted christian philosophers for centuries. They didn't get to any good answer. The most used, to my knowledge is: "we don't know how it works, but since god said that he's omnipotent AND we're free, this must be true". Not very satisfactory to me.
Nope, wrong, sorry.
God (and we're assuming that He exists in order to discuss whether He invalidates free will), is assumed to be Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent.
These three states as I understand them, are in part at least products of one another and mutually supporting:
Omniscient.
He knows everything that has and will happen. This is because He is
Omnipresent.
This means that He is present not simply at all locations, but at all times as well. God exists outwith the constraints of time because He is
Omnipotent.
He can do anything and everything, and is able to make decisions on what to do because He is... omniscient.
So the issue is one of relativity: God, unlike us, is not constrained by time. He knows what we are going to do, because he is omniscient and omnipresent. He enables us to breathe, act and decide for ourselves, but He knows what we'll do before we do it, without having to "work it out" - he's not in the now, looking ahead, he's already ahead, and behind. So as far as we're concerned, we do have free will to do as we see fit, because we don't know what will happen. But as far as God is concerned, although we're making decisions, since He knows what will happen, the outcome is determined. Predestination then, is a matter of relativity.
Now, whether that makes you feel like a train car fixed to the rails or not is up to you, as is whether you turn right or left at the next junction. I can guarantee that if you decide to turn left, then God will not interfere with you turning left. But I can equally say that He'll already know that you're turning left, and in that sense you're doing what he knows you will anyway. Confused? I usually am!
If God possesses the above three qualities, then His existence is radically different to ours; the mistake is to assume that He exists within our reality and is simply more "powerful" than us.
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