|
tradklime
Jan 27, 2005, 10:18 PM
Post #26 of 67
(9502 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 2, 2002
Posts: 1235
|
In reply to: 2) 20 years ago your lead would have been considered bold. In the LL Bean era, all it gets you is a lecture by "concerned climbers". Here's the thing. Know your audience. Nobody here really gives a s--- about your safety or that of others, but by calling you an idiot they get to look authoritative in public. Most of the genuine concern on this board is reserved for whether the hat matched the jacket, and how it looked in the pictures.
I think you missed the mark on this one.
|
|
|
|
|
oldfart
Jan 27, 2005, 10:19 PM
Post #27 of 67
(9502 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 6, 2004
Posts: 76
|
In reply to: In reply to: 2) 20 years ago your lead would have been considered bold. In the LL Bean era, all it gets you is a lecture by "concerned climbers". Here's the thing. Know your audience. Nobody here really gives a s--- about your safety or that of others, but by calling you an idiot they get to look authoritative in public. Most of the genuine concern on this board is reserved for whether the hat matched the jacket, and how it looked in the pictures. I think you missed the mark on this one.
Fortunately, like most others on this site I couldn't give less of a shit whether I'm right or not, and I care even less what you think about it. I'm just trying to fit in.
|
|
|
|
|
d.ben
Deleted
Jan 27, 2005, 10:20 PM
Post #28 of 67
(9502 views)
Shortcut
Registered:
Posts:
|
more defensiveness, further displaying your bruised little ego.
seems like you wanted to hear "F*ck yeah dude, you're so bad ass!"
I truly don't care if lead beyond your ability and deck with a tool up your ass, I just had to call you out for getting pissed when you didn't hear what you wanted form "internet (insert I'm better than you tone here) personalities" after you asked them.
|
|
|
|
|
tradklime
Jan 27, 2005, 10:39 PM
Post #29 of 67
(9502 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 2, 2002
Posts: 1235
|
In reply to: Fortunately, like most others on this site I couldn't give less of a s--- whether I'm right or not, and I care even less what you think about it. I'm just trying to fit in.
Then why on earth do you bother?
|
|
|
|
|
oldfart
Jan 27, 2005, 10:46 PM
Post #30 of 67
(9502 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 6, 2004
Posts: 76
|
In reply to: In reply to: Fortunately, like most others on this site I couldn't give less of a s--- whether I'm right or not, and I care even less what you think about it. I'm just trying to fit in. Then why on earth do you bother?
I could ask the same of damn near everyone on this site. Another fine piece of advice by d.ben up there.
|
|
|
|
|
sandbag
Jan 27, 2005, 10:48 PM
Post #31 of 67
(9502 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 12, 2003
Posts: 1443
|
Ok Glyrocks, heres the concern:
You fell big whoopy doo
the screamer partially deployed, now the real issue.
Is it still safe? Not really, in my opinion.
Heres why
Its a Bar tacked Stiched runner. Its designed to lessen impact in a fall. not falls, not repeated bouncing, etc. A FALL
The thread that was holding the loops is torn, and also the webbing too, hello, its stictched together with guess what sewing needles that yes, pierce and cut their way through the webbing.
ANyway, theres the reason i wouldnt risk my ass on a 6 dollar piece of equipment and you dint fall 10 feet, it looks to be more like maybe 8 if youre lucky. You should be glad you didnt hook a pon and from the pics you sure as hell were lucky you didnt take a point from the left tool in the torso.....
:x
|
|
|
|
|
adamwvt
Jan 27, 2005, 10:51 PM
Post #32 of 67
(9502 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 1, 2002
Posts: 146
|
Wow, I just got back from ice climin, what have you guys been doing all day?
|
|
|
|
|
adamwvt
Jan 27, 2005, 10:54 PM
Post #33 of 67
(9502 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 1, 2002
Posts: 146
|
In reply to: a 6 dollar piece of equipment |
|
|
|
|
abalch
Jan 27, 2005, 11:00 PM
Post #34 of 67
(9502 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 11, 2003
Posts: 179
|
Congratulations on your first fall on ice not being the last fall before the grave. 8^)
I would second, third, whatever everyone else that is suggesting not reusing the screamer. I could be mistaken, but I seem to remember when I bought some screamers last year, that the instructions actually said not to reuse the screamer, even if it doesn't deploy at all during the fall. I guess the reasoning could be similar to air bags in a car. If you get in an accident over a certain speed, recorded by the onboard computer, the insurance company will actually require your air bag to be replaced, even if it did not deploy. Their reason is, since it did not deploy, it may have been defective. Obviously with an air bag, if it does deploy, their is absolutely no way to reuse it--you whole front of your steering wheel is torn apart.
The screamer did its job--treat it like you would treat your horse when it got to old, put it out to pasture, or shoot it and sell it for glue. :lol:
|
|
|
|
|
sandbag
Jan 27, 2005, 11:03 PM
Post #35 of 67
(9502 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 12, 2003
Posts: 1443
|
In reply to: In reply to: a 6 dollar piece of equipment 6$ screamers, where?
ok ok
its 8 and change
HERE
|
|
|
|
|
petmac
Jan 27, 2005, 11:10 PM
Post #36 of 67
(9502 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 3, 2004
Posts: 5
|
In reply to: (and thin compared to what everyone outside NC is used to climbing)
I am not going to question your decision(s) guy; I don’t think its right, for anyone, to say ‘well I would have…if I were…what made you think that!...ect.’ However I live in western NC and also climb ice, and was wondering where in NC where you were when this happened? I don’t think I place it…
|
|
|
|
|
slabmaster
Jan 27, 2005, 11:29 PM
Post #37 of 67
(9502 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 17, 2003
Posts: 42
|
In reply to: Most of the genuine concern on this board is reserved for whether the hat matched the jacket, and how it looked in the pictures.
Remember:
Climbing is all about fashion and gear.
Ice (and mountain) climbing is all about fashion and suffering.
nuf said
~db
|
|
|
|
|
adamwvt
Jan 27, 2005, 11:31 PM
Post #38 of 67
(9502 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 1, 2002
Posts: 146
|
ok ok
its 8 and change
HERE
You magnificant bastard, thats great.
|
|
|
|
|
gunked
Jan 30, 2005, 7:00 PM
Post #39 of 67
(9502 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 1, 2002
Posts: 615
|
I haven't laughed tha hard all day! Oldfart, you slay me! :lol:
-jason :D
|
|
|
|
|
fishbelly
Jan 30, 2005, 7:58 PM
Post #40 of 67
(9502 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 31, 2004
Posts: 273
|
If your scew held. then it was a good placement.
When I started ice climbing snargs were the big advancement in ice pro.
I have barn doored ,hung by one or both tools,balanced on a front point skeered myself bald, But have never taken leader fall on ice.
So I may never have placed a good screw.
Tools or feet you have to make it good on the first try.
when you toprope hook old placements, climb with one tool climb with no tools. your foot work improves. which gives you a foundation for better tool placements.
Matching clothes slings ropes make better pictures!
|
|
|
|
|
adamwvt
Jan 31, 2005, 2:27 AM
Post #41 of 67
(9502 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 1, 2002
Posts: 146
|
In reply to: If your scew held. then it was a good placement. When I started ice climbing snargs were the big advancement in ice pro. I have barn doored ,hung by one or both tools,balanced on a front point skeered myself bald, But have never taken leader fall on ice. So I may never have placed a good screw.
Well said fishbelly.
|
|
|
|
|
lame_name
Jan 31, 2005, 2:32 AM
Post #42 of 67
(9502 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 2
|
so you started the climb expecting to fall? that is pretty bizaar for an ice climber and i'd say silly for a beginner, maaaybe ballsy for a seasoned vet with adequate knowledge.
someone was just there with a camera at the right time? it almost looks staged!
|
|
|
|
|
cjstudent
Jan 31, 2005, 4:45 AM
Post #43 of 67
(9502 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 21, 2003
Posts: 369
|
Here is my whole opinion on the thing.
There are alot of ass-holes on this website.
the main question that Dylan wanted to know was about the screamer. I think the general answer he got was, don't use it. So now he has your advice and its up to him on what to do.
I don't see why everyone jumped on the against Dylan bandwagon. I actually know dylan...he's not the kind of guy who is going to get off by getting online and getting alot of responses like "hell yea do it again!". Forgive him for posting a thread and posting pictures of a fall on a climbing site. I think people on here need to think alittle more before they start calling someone a newbie etc etc. I got the same BS responses when i posted a pic of my trad fall.
I mean how is what he posted any different than the whole thread that is about the smallest piece of gear thats held. To me it looked like he just posted about a climbing experience he had where the gear actually held. It would be teh same thing if the story went along the lines of "man i was on this hard climb, only got this mank .2 camalot placed and continued up pushing my ability and i'd be damn but a hold broke off, i took a 10 footer and the mank cam held!"
I just think everyone needs to let off just alittle bit. Especially the bone head who posted saying the picture was staged. Nice first post buddy!
Oh and i had my first day of ice climbing today. I even went with Dylan and am alive to tell about it.
|
|
|
|
|
harrisha
Jan 31, 2005, 5:03 AM
Post #44 of 67
(9502 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 31, 2003
Posts: 314
|
Just checked Yates' site a normal Screamer when full blown is rated at 26kn. Thats stronger than a lot of biners. Based on that I'd say use it until you rip out all the stiching. I'd retire it after that even though it's supposed to still be a full strength runner.
|
|
|
|
|
glyrocks
Jan 31, 2005, 5:17 AM
Post #45 of 67
(9502 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 614
|
You mean bizzare? But no, I didn't start expecting to fall. I starting up thinking it was a possibility and once plates of ice popped off I expected it to happen. Maybe to y'all pushing on when I could have bailed is silly, but that's got to do with my reasons for climbing. Maybe it will get me killed one day, but I'm okay with that. I didn't express the least bit of concern whether you were okay with that, and I certainly don't give a fuck if you aren't.
The purpose of the thread was clearly to state that screws and screamers can hold falls, not that it is a good idea to fall or that I'm a badass. The only input I asked for was concerning the screamer, which did generate a few useful responses, but mostly only people complaining about my ego. Hrm.
Sandbag: So first I was reckless to fall and then it's only "whoopy doo" ? Which one is it? Sure sounded like a big deal in your first bit of rhetoric. But moving on to what I was interested in...
In reply to: The thread that was holding the loops is torn, and also the webbing too, hello, its stictched together with guess what sewing needles that yes, pierce and cut their way through the webbing.
So you must only use tied runners then right? 'Cause lots of runners are bar tacked with, guess what, sewing needles.
I still think the Screamer is better than a regular runner. Yates states that once blown, Screamers are still full strength runners. They'd have to be safe blown to be safe to use before they tear. If a partially torn screamer was as weak as some of y'all think, a fall that generated enough force to completely tear the screamer seemingly break the the torn Screamer completely as well. So yea, I think it would be fine to use it until it's fully blown, and then retire it.
|
|
|
|
|
kachoong
Jan 31, 2005, 6:54 AM
Post #46 of 67
(9502 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 23, 2004
Posts: 15304
|
In reply to: I still think the Screamer is better than a regular runner. Yates states that once blown, Screamers are still full strength runners. They'd have to be safe blown to be safe to use before they tear. If a partially torn screamer was as weak as some of y'all think, a fall that generated enough force to completely tear the screamer seemingly break the the torn Screamer completely as well. So yea, I think it would be fine to use it until it's fully blown, and then retire it.
....forget what some of these idiots are ranting about and vommiting from their brains.... the point to this whole thread is to show what can happen, who it has happened to, under what conditions and the lessons learned.... without people finding out what happens to certain pieces of gear under different conditions, we wouldn't be able to use this information to our own benefit....
....the climber fell (yeah ok, conditions and experience dictated 'why') but that isn't the topic here.... the screw obviously held.... the screamer tore, but not completely.... I would use the screamer again in place of a runner.... but most definately NOT in the same situation as used here.... the forces exerted on the screw could, and most probably would, be greater than if the screamer was not 'deployed'.... so it may not absorb sufficient force to allow the screw to hold in such ice....
....I think the more information available to beginners, without the bickering, endless negativity and arrogance, the easier it is to make informed decisions based on what others experience.... how many of the people here who flamed the original poster have fallen on a screamer?!?.... Leave the guy alone!
|
|
|
|
|
adnix
Jan 31, 2005, 11:14 AM
Post #47 of 67
(9502 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2003
Posts: 584
|
I don't see any problem with using the screamer. Just apply some tape around it and it's perfect again. The worst case scenario is that it'll hold the promised strength of +20kN.
It might not be a good idea to use it if you're facing runout situation, though.
|
|
|
|
|
jimdavis
Jan 31, 2005, 10:44 PM
Post #48 of 67
(9502 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1935
|
The fact that your using Screamers in general means that you don't completly trust Ice Screws.
So if that's how you feel...wouldn't you want full confidence in the Screamer, to give that screw (you don't completly trust) all the help you can?
Also, I don't think it'll re-activate at 2kn. I think the first few stitches are designed to hold up to 2kn, and the rest just rip out until the fall is stopped.
I could be wrong here, but can you get it to rip out more by pulling on both ends? Or does it actually take 2kn to get it to keep going?
Cheers,
Jim
|
|
|
|
|
sandbag
Jan 31, 2005, 10:49 PM
Post #49 of 67
(9502 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 12, 2003
Posts: 1443
|
In reply to: You mean bizzare? But no, I didn't start expecting to fall. I starting up thinking it was a possibility and once plates of ice popped off I expected it to happen. Maybe to y'all pushing on when I could have bailed is silly, but that's got to do with my reasons for climbing. Maybe it will get me killed one day, but I'm okay with that. I didn't express the least bit of concern whether you were okay with that, and I certainly don't give a f--- if you aren't. The purpose of the thread was clearly to state that screws and screamers can hold falls, not that it is a good idea to fall or that I'm a badass. The only input I asked for was concerning the screamer, which did generate a few useful responses, but mostly only people complaining about my ego. Hrm. Sandbag: So first I was reckless to fall and then it's only "whoopy doo" ? Which one is it? Sure sounded like a big deal in your first bit of rhetoric. But moving on to what I was interested in... In reply to: The thread that was holding the loops is torn, and also the webbing too, hello, its stictched together with guess what sewing needles that yes, pierce and cut their way through the webbing. So you must only use tied runners then right? 'Cause lots of runners are bar tacked with, guess what, sewing needles. I still think the Screamer is better than a regular runner. Yates states that once blown, Screamers are still full strength runners. They'd have to be safe blown to be safe to use before they tear. If a partially torn screamer was as weak as some of y'all think, a fall that generated enough force to completely tear the screamer seemingly break the the torn Screamer completely as well. So yea, I think it would be fine to use it until it's fully blown, and then retire it.
No dumbass. The sewn runners are sewn in one spot an tested to 22Kn. the screamers are a load reducing unit, sewn in series, designed to deploy under duress, ie they begin to lessen the acceleration due to gravity by interupting your fall. go ahead. i dont really care. but ive said my piece.
Have fun. Dont end up on the news, and just keep climbing.
|
|
|
|
|
tradklime
Jan 31, 2005, 11:25 PM
Post #50 of 67
(9502 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 2, 2002
Posts: 1235
|
For those who think the entire purpose of the original post is to ask if the screamer should be reused... I call bullsh!t. Otherwise, the post would have been as simple as, "I fell on a sreamer the other day and it partially deployed, should I keep using it?"
Well, I'll tell you the answer anyways: It will not have the same load limiting capabilities as a new screamer, use it with appropriate judgement. Yates says not to. Your ass, your decision.
The following was presented as something learned from the fall, and it is dead wrong.
In reply to: But hey, at least I know shorties and screamers will hold.
No, a shorty and a screamer and a new rope and a dynamic belay, yada yada yada, held a fall in this one particular instance. And the original poster was lucky, although smart enough to at least recognize these factors in retrospect.
However, that's it, nothing more nothing less. It should not be misconstrued that ice pro is better than it is. You hung it out there and it worked out for you, in this particular situation. Take it for what its worth.
Boldness is pushing your limits and safety when you fully understand your limits, the limits of what you are climbing/ conditions, the limits of your gear, and the consequences. I fully respect boldness.
Do not mistake ignorance for boldness, it is not the same.
And for all those who may think that I am arrogant, or holier than thou, or whatever, that is not how it is intended. I have made similar MISTAKES in my climbing career, and I have gotten lucky. I have also been not so lucky, and have witnessed many others not being so lucky. The difference is that I have recognized mistakes for what they are and learned from them. And that is where the real value can be in a forum, so that hopefully the amount of unlucky mistakes made by people who are learning can be reduced.
And for what it's worth, I'd use the screamer again, but I'd be very selective on when to use it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
