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brianthew
Dec 12, 2002, 6:35 PM
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The main reason bolting cracks is frowned upon is becuase it bolting defaces the rock. Now, I'm no trad climber; on rock I do mostly sport, but the concern is for the perservation of rock. It may feel "unfair" that trad climbers get to climb that crack, however, what's more important...preservation of the enviornment or another climb on your tick list?
If you really, really want to climb it, then ask a trad person really nicely...
Not that this answer will really satisfy you, but the avoidance of excessive bolting is part of the ethic in pretty much every climbing area (at least in the USA).
I get the feeling this will turn into a heated debate soon...oh well.
[ This Message was edited by: brianthew on 2002-12-12 10:36 ]
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lox
Dec 12, 2002, 6:36 PM
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It probably has a lot to do with whiney threads like this one.
WHY DON'T YOU GUYS LIKE ME !?!? I'M COOL !!?!!11 I SWEAR !!!!1111111
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hallm
Dec 12, 2002, 6:37 PM
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If money is the issue, buy cams and nuts instead of a bolt kit.
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pbjosh
Dec 12, 2002, 6:40 PM
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EDIT
Unfortunately the wonderous post that inspired this has been removed so it's no longer relevant. The original poster (can't even remember who) had proclaimed that trad climbers were elitists and that cracks should be bolted so that people who couldn't afford or couldn't figure out cams could climb them.
Thus my response below.
josh
/EDIT
New #1 stupidest all time thread.
New top 5 entry for stupidest user.
If you can't afford cams stop spending all your money on prAna beenies and girlie mags or (oh my god) suffice yourself with toproping that which you cannot lead (what a f*cking concept, eh?).
josh
[ This Message was edited by: pbjosh on 2003-01-03 09:32 ]
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climblouisiana
Dec 12, 2002, 6:45 PM
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I couldn't climb the 5.1- approach pitch to my favorite climbing area so I bolted a ladder to it.
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redpoint73
Dec 12, 2002, 6:47 PM
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Every climbing area has a different philosophy regarding bolts. So its best to respect local traditions and regulations. Some areas only place bolts where absolutely neccessary (no pro at a crux), and hav many "mixed" routes. Other areas are developed as sport crags, where even splitter cracks are bolted.
Bolted lines that could otherwise be climbed as (scary or hard to protect) trad lines can be fun. But saying that lines should be bolted just because you can't afford the gear is not a good reason (I know thats not your reasoning, but you did mention it). You can always borrow gear, or top rope it. Or climb something else.
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ride
Dec 12, 2002, 6:48 PM
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use your $.02 to start saving for a rack, two stoppers costs about as much as one quickdraw, check it out.
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petsfed
Dec 12, 2002, 6:50 PM
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I'd never heard of sport climbers disliking trad climbers because of that. I have heard of trad climbers slagging on sport climbers for "purity" reasons. It just strikes me as odd when I sink a bomber hand jam, reach up, and clip a bolt. Maybe that's just me.
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timpanogos
Dec 12, 2002, 6:50 PM
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Josh,
Too funny
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ljthawk
Dec 12, 2002, 6:53 PM
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That is quoted from me. Yes I climb sport, as well as trad, bouldering, and starting to learn about aid.
First off you are correct. If you can't afford the gear, or more realistically, can't partner up with someone and learn how to use the gear by climbing with them (since they already have the gear), then that climb is not for you.
For example, I can't afford a bivy ledge (sp?), so should we pre place them up on multi day aid routes. Another aider may not like hooking 20 moves and not having any set pro, does that mean the aid climb should be ladder bolted.
I can't afford many things in life. I make choices as to what my priorities are. I don't think my lack of willingness to learn or lack of financial funds is an excuse to change the personality of the climb. Respect the rock. There are a plethora of trad climbs in my area I wouldn't fee comfortable leading on gear. Does this mean I think they should be bolted. No way. I either have to get someone else to lead them, lead an easier climb to access the top and then set up a TR, get stronger so I can do them, or leave them alone. Retro bolting is not an option.
This has been debated many times over. Yes I agree this is definitely one of the dumbest style threads. I don't know which is worse, the thread or the fact I took the time to respond to a climber who evidently doesn't understand the background history / ethics in climbing. Unfortunately the recent popularity of indoor gyms and easy accessible sport crags has many new climbers thinking climbing is a right, not a privilege. Who do you think maintains these sport areas, replacing anchors and manky hardware? It's not a right, its an expensive privilege.The sad thing is that those of us who are trying to work on anchor maintenance for these climbers probably aren't even appreciated since they feel the bolts were put there for their convenience. If you want respect, give it and get in touch with the ethics / climbing community that nurtured this sport since before it became trendy.
[off]
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elvislegs
Dec 12, 2002, 6:58 PM
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Digscot (BTW what is it caught in?), Sorry man you asked a certain sort of question and you got a certain sort of answer. You've been climbing for all of what? Three months. So chalk it up to live and learn.
But nice touch calling US "faggots" and then talking about how YOU want to shove something up our ass. Your winning friends here quickly.
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ride
Dec 12, 2002, 7:00 PM
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well said ljthawk.
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ljthawk
Dec 12, 2002, 7:07 PM
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dig_scott
Why did you delete your original message?
L.J.
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holmeslovesguinness
Dec 12, 2002, 7:09 PM
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not all people have trad gear so does this mean they shouldn't be allowed to place a bolt there because i can put my #2.5 camalot two inches to the right?
Ummm... so your hypothetical protagantist here can afford the gear to bolt a route (including some expensive drill) but can't afford a few cams or stoppers? Riiiight. And yes, if a section of a route doesn't need bolts, don't bolt it.
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uncle_big_green
Dec 12, 2002, 7:14 PM
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DigScotty, where's the love, man?
There are reasons why bolts shouldn't get placed next to bomber gear placements. One is that they (bolts) are not needed for a relatively safe ascent if you can instead sink a fat piece of gear. Another is that it is in better style to minimize the impact on the rock. Didn't people's parents ever tell them that they should try to leave something in the condition in which they found it?
[ This Message was edited by: uncle_big_green on 2002-12-12 11:16 ]
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wanlessrm
Dec 12, 2002, 7:26 PM
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Money is a cheap copout for some people. Instead of getting sodas at the kwick mart use the mone for a gear. Its all about trade offs and living the life you want to live.
Has anyone actually fu-k a fag! If you have will you keep it to yourself so I don't have to hear about it!
Thanks
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calamity_chk
Dec 12, 2002, 7:27 PM
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apollodorus ... LOL !!
also, presuming that the bolt drilling protag really didnt have money for cams .. I say so what. I'm learning trad, and the only piece of gear that I have is a bootied tri-cam that a friend let me have.
The climbing community, dirtbags and trad snobs in particular, are incredibly nice and generous people; the gear is there, if the ethics are.
Now as for why trad people pick on sporties, my guess is threads like this. They come off as being whiny. Dont get me wrong, I whine about stuff too .. and I get made fun of, big deal.
Trad is all about ethics, balls, and machismo. If you cant deal, then dont play. And if you whine, expect to be made fun of.
[/end rambling mess .. back to work]
[ This Message was edited by: clymbr_chk on 2002-12-12 11:29 ]
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rrrADAM
Dec 12, 2002, 7:28 PM
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Nobody should be getting a hard time, as it's all climbing brutha. As long as you are pulling down on something, you are climbing.
Bagging on another style serves no purpose, but in fact creates a rift in the climbing community, when what we need is unity.
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calamity_chk
Dec 12, 2002, 7:30 PM
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adam, quit being so mean, ma' brotha
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jiadar
Dec 12, 2002, 7:35 PM
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Bolting a trad-protectable line takes away a lot of the adventure in climbing it. The challenge of route-finding, anchor setup, and placing your own gear is for me just as good as the actual climbing. If all I'm doing is following a bolt ladder it takes away that sense of adventure. While I may be able to climb harder with pre-placed gear, that isn't what its all about for me.
Not to mention the environmental damage, and eyesore!
Now thats cool to place them on a run-out face or something that be unclimbable with natural pro, but bolting up good cracks is just rediculous.
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mnutz
Dec 12, 2002, 7:42 PM
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Bolting also brings more people to the crags. More people bring more litter, create more trails, add to erosion, trampled vegatation. Land managers get upset, areas get closed.
Keep it clean, keep it open. Keep it bolt-free.
In response to the original question, trad climbers diss on all whiners, not just sport climbers, LOL!
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timpanogos
Dec 12, 2002, 7:47 PM
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GREAT call apollodorus - hit the nail right on!
too funny
RRRAdam - yea we should get along, but we should also educate and promote good ethics - you copped out here.
[ This Message was edited by: timpanogos on 2002-12-12 11:49 ]
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mustclimb69
Dec 12, 2002, 7:53 PM
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Where did the origional message go???
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space_monkey
Dec 12, 2002, 8:06 PM
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very nicely put mnutz!!
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beethovenboy
Dec 12, 2002, 9:12 PM
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Um...some of us might like the ",shoving 2 cents up our ass," part!
Spiral out...
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camhead
Dec 12, 2002, 9:26 PM
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Quote:because i can put my #2.5 camalot two inches to the right?
I didn't know there was such a thing as a 2.5 camalot!
Anyway, think of it in this way. You have a favorite jeep trail that takes you way out into the middle of nowhere. People start coming along, whining about how not everyone can afford a jeep, and they wat to enjoy the trail too. So they pave it, allowing every idiot with a car to invade your previously favorite place. Would you be happy?
follow me?
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newland
Dec 12, 2002, 9:56 PM
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The reason why people don't climb trad, is because THEY DON"T WANT TO. For most people, it has little to do with money.
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elvislegs
Dec 12, 2002, 10:09 PM
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leaverbiner
Dec 12, 2002, 10:14 PM
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Mnutz - you're f'n NUTZ . . . don't blame access and evironmental issues on sport climbers . . . it's a totally innacurate generalization . . . there are planty of trad areas that are over populated and have seriuos erosion problems . . . look no further than the Gunks . . . the crowds are insane . . . and there are areas that are undergoing serious revegitation and restoration because of the nice work of TRAD-CLIMBERS!!!!
Get off your high horse . . . You are no better than anyone else simply because you place gear . . .
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rockram
Dec 12, 2002, 10:19 PM
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ummm...i don't want to disgrace myself by joining in on a forum with so much hatred and profanity...but i'm going to anyways in an attempt to stop the pointless and immature arguing. so i'm just going to say this and not pay any more attention to this particular post...
let's all realize that climbing is a blast no matter what you are climbing (sport, trad, or whatever)!!! can anyone disagree with me? if so, i don't know how. as for me...i love it all, and will climb ANYTHING!
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drector
Dec 12, 2002, 10:23 PM
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dig_scott,
You made a post complaining about someone not reading your original post BUT YOU EDITED IT! So us late-comers don't have any idea what you said. Kind of a sucky way to make a point, by deleting it.
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talons05
Dec 12, 2002, 10:33 PM
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I would just like to point out that many of your posts are attacking other users rather than addressing the actual question. Here's my answer to the ORIGINAL post: Often, Trad climbers find the idea of defacing the rock with a bolt horrifying. More than this though, sport climbers are often younger, or not as "outdoors oriented" as many trad climbers. This variance in interest or gap in generation often leads to tension between the two groups. Most of the time, its just talk, so it really doesn't matter anyway...
A.W.
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pbjosh
Dec 12, 2002, 10:51 PM
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Adam,
Normally I'm with you man but on this one:
Quote:
Bagging on another style serves no purpose, but in fact creates a rift in the climbing community, when what we need is unity.
If you're referring to bolting stuff that doesn't need bolts, then I'm not with you any more... I'm fine with there being a rift between people who would bolt a crack for lack of money/cams and people who wouldn't.
josh
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holmeslovesguinness
Dec 12, 2002, 10:57 PM
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Score another one for the Trolls. This guys was just trying to get a rise outta people - he made a whiny candy ass post with a subject title that sounded inflammatory just to get a response. After a few people replied (mostly nice) and picked apart his original post he completely deleted it and replaced it with what's there now. Lame.
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pbjosh
Dec 12, 2002, 11:05 PM
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oh, and sport climbers are not regularly dissed by trad climbers.
However, morons are regularly dissed by people who are sick of them.
josh
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flying_dutchman
Dec 12, 2002, 11:09 PM
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weren't bolts orginally used cause nothing else would work to protect the leader? An example being, climbing a slab that offers no natural protection on lead. Bolts simply allowed more climbs to be lead with an element of safety.
Now what, people want to customize climbs to their own prefrences? Use whats avalible on a climb; if there is a crack, use the crack. If bolts were placed by the one who established the route, use em. Dont bolt a crack cause u cant lead trad. Thats like chipping the route cause its too hard for u.
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jonzoclimber
Dec 12, 2002, 11:13 PM
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Blarg, climbing is climbing
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mnutz
Dec 12, 2002, 11:41 PM
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Leaverbiner,
I don't think I'm better than anyone else because I place gear. I do think I'm better than anyone else who does not respect the environment and who does not do everything possible to limit impact.
I'm not saying that sport climbers are soley responsible for access problems. Sure trad climbers can contribute to the problem, and a lot of the time it's non-climbers who cause the most problems.
But the fact remains that if you bolt it, they will come. More traffic anywhere is never good. My personal experience with sport climbers has been that they are generally not as well versed in outdoor ethics as the average trad climber. I know that is not true of all sport climbers (or all trad climbers) so if it doesn't include you (anyone) don't be offended.
More bolts = more people. More people = more problems. Therefore, it stands to reason that less bolts = less problems.
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dig_scott
Dec 13, 2002, 12:35 AM
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humans f*ck everything up.
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climbsomething
Dec 13, 2002, 12:38 AM
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Hmm, which do I like more, elvislegs' troll or apollodorus' kung-fu baby?
Choices, choices
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pbjosh
Dec 13, 2002, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
humans f*ck everything up.
On this we agree. A bolted crack is something that has been very well f*cked up.
josh
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knuckles
Dec 13, 2002, 1:15 AM
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If this is becoming a survey I gotta vote for the troll, nothing against kung-fu baby but he just doesn't seem as appropriate for the thread. Unless of course said troll has aforementioned 2 cents showed up his ass... can't abide no queers in climbing, running around in tight little ballet shoes and harnesses is MACHO dammit. This whole argument is moot, we should protect everything with pink tricams.
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ljthawk
Dec 13, 2002, 1:31 AM
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For anyone interested, here is the thread that compelled the poster to start this thread.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=21478&forum=16
L.J.
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jefesuave
Dec 13, 2002, 1:46 AM
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So I heard there are alot of people starving in the world, and that Africa has an AIDS epidemic....oh wait my bad, we were discussing something way more important. whether or not to bolt a crack...hmmmm...back to cnn.com
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ljthawk
Dec 13, 2002, 2:19 AM
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I posted it in the other thread, but here's an amusing site worth reading
http://www.mindspring.com/~bjfaber/
It looks like the person who owns the site gets some pretty funny fan mail.
L.J.
[ This Message was edited by: ljthawk on 2002-12-12 18:20 ]
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orangekyak
Dec 13, 2002, 3:59 AM
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that's a great site. i think.
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camhead
Dec 13, 2002, 5:01 AM
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the owner of that site is an active member of rc.com as well, in case you guys didn't know.
haha
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leaverbiner
Dec 13, 2002, 3:57 PM
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mnutz - my apologies for my harsh response . . . your follow up was much more enlightening as to your point of view . . . and I agree that the "average" sport climber probably doesn't have the same ethics as the "average" trad climber, too often someone just goes and buys a few quickdraws a rope and a harness and heads out to the crags without any knowledge of their surroundings and thus fails to properly treat the environment . . . whereas a trad climber usually has had to either invest time in learning or had to spend time with other more experienced climbers that hopefully have instilled a sense of responsibility and ethics . . . I generally clip bolts, but I was lucky enough to be taught by a mountaineer/trad climber who made sure I knew more than just how to clip the bolt . . . he emphasised ethics, lessening impact, and respect for the environment and others . . . don't get me wrong, I would love it if the Gunks was bolted, for purely selfish reasons because there are so many climbs there that I would love to do but can't lead yet . . .but I agree that if the gunks were bolted way back when ti would now be a disaster . . . I'm not advocating bolting protectable lines, there are simply times where I would love to be able to climb a killer gunks 12 or 13 but can't because I can't trad that hard . . . and I am still scared to death of falling on gear . . .
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rrrADAM
Dec 13, 2002, 4:44 PM
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My reply has nothing to do with bolting or not bolting... It has to do with the title of this post... "Why Sport Clibers are bagged on By Trad"...
No one style should bag on another, as it's all climbing. Bagging on other styles only create rifts within the climbing community, when we as a whole need unity.
(And people actually had a problem with this statement ??? )
As for ethics, and my opinion on bolting "established Trad protected climbs", I am vehemently opposed to it. I have a very clear stance on this, and it has been posted in such threads as "Bolt Wars", "Bolt The Cracks", "Retro Bolting", etc... There is no excuse.
I love it when people say that bolting a Trad line makes it safer, or if Trad climbers don't like the bolt, then don't clip it. This is analogous to bolting a HighBall Boulder problem to make it "safer" since someone doesn't want to commit to it, and if the boulderer doesn't like the bolts, then they shouldn't clip them. I think we can all agree that bolting a boulder problem would be unethical, and a bit &#$$&ish, right ???
You see... I am all for the ethic of the Area. I love climbing at The Gunks and Tuolumne, and many people would like to see bolts added to the R/X Rated Routes at Tuolumne especially. I would not, as they have long since been climbed Traditionally, so there is no need.
IMHO... To bolt everything would only homogonize climbing, and lower the commitment required for many climbs. There is a reason there are no R/X rated Sport Climbs, they are bolted to take this level of commitment out of the climb.
Basically... I believe that if one does not have what it takes (gear, head, skill, etc...) to climb an established route as it has been climbed, then they should not climb it, and come back when they have what it takes to climb it. Don't lower the level of the climb, they should rise to the level of the climb.
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orangekyak
Dec 13, 2002, 4:57 PM
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I think sport climbers are dissed by trad climbers. I think it happens for a couple reasons.
Many sport climbers come across as being pretty arrogant. Climbing technically hard terrain definitely commands respect. But it is my opinion, and apparently that of many others as well, that technically difficult sport is not in the same ballpark as hard trad. Some people are an exception, but I think for most of us this is the case.
The easy access of sport climbing, the quick learning curve to leading 5.10 sport vs. moderate trad for any slightly-ambitious athlete, make it easy for those who have invested time, effort and savings into becoming knowledgeable, athletic and able to take an ethical high ground to put down sport climbers.
When I started climbing I figured "it's just rock, it can handle some bolts." But (in a relatively short time, mind you,) the more I climb and more people I meet, the less difference I see between climbers and everyone else. This is scary to me, especially when I see the way people erratically drive cars, overconsume everything they can afford (and more) and treat each other like crap. This translates to me as erratic climbing practices, abusing resources at the crag, and not respecting each other and those who climbed before us.
But I still see a difference in attitude from those who climb just sport to those who have caught the trad bug. And others have apparently seen it too - sportos are viewed as irresponsible, capricious and unaware of their actions in light og the traditions of climbing. There are definitely traddys who actually ARE irresponsible, capricious and unaware but in the end how you're treated and thought of is going to be based on generalizations, at least until they go out of style.
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camhead
Dec 13, 2002, 5:26 PM
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wait, orange... are you saying that you are supposed to "work up" to 5.10 trad? oops, that's what I've been doing wrong.
on the sport vs. trad thang, they certainly do compliment each other. Observe the case of "Crack of Doom" at City of Rocks, Idaho. It is a beautiful fingers to hands granite crack, but to get to it requires one to pull off some v4-ish moves for the first twenty feet.
This keeps many of the old traddies off of the route (probably the same traddies that diss sport-os). Conversely, not many sport climbers do the route either, because the crack takes some serious balls.
honestly, I think that most climbers who diss another type of climbing are just afraid of it. I love both sport and trad, and do both a lot. However, I talk $#!& on aid. Why? Because i am not any good at it! hehe.
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bwnco
Dec 13, 2002, 5:35 PM
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In referance to " Humans f*ck up everything"
There biggest f*ck up is bolting trad routes. I dont know about the rest of you but im to damn lazy to pound away on rock when I can simply slip a piece in!...Go Figure??
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orangekyak
Dec 13, 2002, 5:41 PM
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nope, cam, i didn't say that.
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holmeslovesguinness
Dec 13, 2002, 5:49 PM
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What's funny is the original post (which was deleted by the poster) wasn't really about trad climbers dissing sport climbers per se. I don't remember the whole post, but here's a bit that I replied to:
not all people have trad gear so does this mean they shouldn't be allowed to place a bolt there because i can put my #2.5 camalot two inches to the right?
It's a relevant question. I love climbing both sport and trad, I see nothing wrong with bolted routes. But I personally think that bolting should be judicious - you should only place bolts where they are absolutely needed for safety. Didn't 'trad' climbing get started as a response to the damage being caused by climbing with pitons and such? I don't consider bolting to be in the same league as bashing in pitons over and over on a route, but it still makes a permanant impact on the rock.
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radistrad
Dec 13, 2002, 5:53 PM
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Don't bolt near cracks. Its bad. There is no reason to do so. If you can not afford the gear, sell the bike and buy some cams. If you cant place the gear, LEARN. If your scared, stay home.
Sport climbing takes less skill than crack climbing, Its easy to clip a bolt, its not as easy to selectg and set a nut. Its more intuitive to pull down on a hold, hand jamming takes pratice and is not at "easy".
However it is easier to carry 12 draws to a climb than to carry a full rack and two ropes. Maybe the sport climbers have something here.
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jt512
Dec 13, 2002, 7:13 PM
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Quote:
Sport climbing takes less skill than crack climbing,
Baloney. Sport climbing does not require less skill than crack climbing, though it does require fewer skills. In sport climbing you don't need to know how to place gear, route find, self-rescue, find the descent, keep your head together on a runout, etc. But it doesn't take less skill. In sport climbing, the moves are harder and, contrary to what you've said below, less intuitive.
Quote:
Its more intuitive to pull down on a hold, hand jamming takes pratice and is not at "easy".
Your vision of what sport climbing entails is too limited. There is a hell of a lot more to it than "pulling down on holds." As an example, look at the first hard move on Hellraiser (5.12c) at Williamson Rock in SoCal. It goes something like this: From a right-hand gaston and a left-hand side-pull, stretch far out left with the left foot. Push with the right hand and pull with the left foot to rock over onto the left foot, while simultaneously bringing the right foot up into a high backstep and reaching with the left hand for a distant gaston. This puts you in a double-gaston-iron-cross-high-backstep. From this "intuitive" position, cross the right hand over the left, let the feet kick loose, reposition the feet on higher holds to the left, and deadpoint with the left hand to a jug.
I have found that most people fail to find this move intuitive. In contrast, the "sequence" up a crack is no secret.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-12-13 11:14 ]
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leaverbiner
Dec 13, 2002, 7:23 PM
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Here's how I sum up "radistrad":
(your best whiney voice) "My climbing is harder than yours becuase I have to fumble through my gear while hanging on 5.8 jugs after doing strenuous 5.8 moves . . . I have to carry more gear in to the crag, oh my aching back . . . I can't pull hard so I get nowhere in sport climbing, instead I'll diss others just because they find enjoyment in a different aspect of climbing and can probably pull harder than I can."
Give it a rest . . . Trad is not inherently "harder" than sport, it may require more confidence and better control of one's fears, but you're not some badass because you Trad climb. A great many people enjoy climbing for the PHYSICAL nature of the activity. Thus, people boulder and sport climb so they can push their physical limits while keeping the potential for injury within reasonable limits. You may be saying to yourself, that Leaverbiner is a panzy sport climber that's none no Trad" well, you're wrong . . . I don't do much, but I do some occassionally. . . why so little? because it scares the crap out of me and therefore I either don't enjoy it becasue I spend the whole time being scared, or I resign myself to doing routes that physically are a joke (things I would solo). So, am I less of a person because I clip bolts to have fun? I don't think so. Are you a stronger climber than me? I DOUBT IT! Do I care how hard you or anyone else climbs? Not in the least! Do I hope that everyone can find enjoyment, in thier own way, in climbing . . . EXACTLY!!
[ This Message was edited by: leaverbiner on 2002-12-13 12:38 ]
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flash5twelve
Dec 13, 2002, 7:30 PM
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Jay spews beta:
Quote:Hellraiser (5.12c) at Williamson Rock in SoCal. It goes something like this: From a right-hand gaston and a left-hand side-pull, stretch far out left with the left foot. Push with the right hand and pull with the left foot to rock over onto the left foot, while simultaneously bringing the right foot up into a high backstep and reaching with the left hand for a distant gaston. This puts you in a double-gaston-iron-cross-high-backstep. From this "intuitive" position, cross the right hand over the left, let the feet kick loose, reposition the feet on higher holds to the left, and deadpoint with the left hand to a jug.
DAMN! There goes my onsight!
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jt512
Dec 13, 2002, 7:39 PM
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Quote:
Jay spews beta:
...
I knew it was a bad idea to teach you how to quote, Greg.
-Jay
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flash5twelve
Dec 13, 2002, 7:52 PM
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Mwa ha ha ha ha!
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wildtrail
Dec 13, 2002, 8:00 PM
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Because it is stupid?
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jt512
Dec 13, 2002, 8:07 PM
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Quote:
Because it is stupid?
I refer you to the post by Leaverbiner.
-Jay
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calamity_chk
Dec 14, 2002, 12:00 AM
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/ducks her head in again/
Quote:http://www.mindspring.com/~bjfaber/
Dude, the pipeline effin rules !
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pbjosh
Dec 14, 2002, 12:36 AM
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Jay,
Quote:
I have found that most people fail to find this move intuitive. In contrast, the "sequence" up a crack is no secret.
Jay, just as you disagree with sport climbing being easier/more intuitive, I'm calling bull$#!& all over the above quote.
I'd like you to try California Night (11b fingers) at Woodson and see how intuitive you think it is and what you do for sequence.
Give Pigpen at jtree a try as well and let me know if you get a good sequence first go.
I also remain firmly convinced that there is more technique involved in crack climbing than in face or friction climbing. A beginner can come to understand face climbing relatively quickly and friction climbing incredibly quickly (never mind fancy moves like roses, drop knees or heel hooks) - it's more intuitive to grab a hold (including a gaston or sidepull or undercling) and pull on it, than it is to do a proper hand, finger or fist jam. Getting into greater difficulty, most people, I conjecture, will find it a lot easier to learn to dropknee or heelhook than to learn to leavittate, leg bar or ring lock. Considering the amount of time I spend crack climbing vs. sport climbing I can guarantee you that leavittation is a hell of lot harder to work out than drop knees, roses, heel hooks, double gastons, bicycle moves, whatever you want...
In fact, I'd wager there's more technique in offwidthing than there is in all of face, friction, and crack-up-to-fist-size climbing together.
Witness the first-time-climber who is presented a 5.9 or 5.10a on the Stream Wall vs. the first-time-climber who is presented Sacharer Cracker, Moby Dick, Championship Wrestling, Damper, Enter the Dragon, etc... hell, witness me or you on the above choices
josh
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camhead
Dec 14, 2002, 1:23 AM
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I agree with the above post. crack technique is much harder to learn than sport moves. it comes less naturally. you don't think so, look at how many sportos at the gym can't pull cracks; its a lot more than the tradddies that can't crank crimpers, I'll tell you that much.
Again, though, they're both valid. there are a couple sport climbs I know that you can get hand jam rests on, which are tons less strenuous than hanging off of any jug.
learn your crack technique, %!#@#.
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jt512
Dec 14, 2002, 6:24 AM
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Josh,
I agree with you that entry-level face climbs are more intuitive than entry-level cracks. That's why entry-level sport climbing gets boring pretty quickly. At the higher levels of sport climbing, the technique becomes far more complex than any crack climb -- that's not to say that it's physically harder, just more complex. There is nothing intuitive about drop-knees, heel hooks, deadpoints, and twist locks. Its greater complexity and variety of movement is one of the great appeals of sport climbing over trad to those of us who are attracted to that type of climbing.
-Jay
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ronamick
Dec 14, 2002, 6:42 AM
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Back in the 70's, 5.11 was as hard as it got.
5.11 had just been seperated into A,B,C,D when all of a sudden we hear about a 5.12 route by this guy Jardine in Yosemite. We are all thinking that this guy is the best in the world, only to find out that he is hanging on the rope!
It's not that he was doing that, it's that he wasn't copping to it. This deceit was happening locally too. When we brought up the point that one needs to be honest about the style of a climb if one is going to compete with others, we ran into what became the sport climber's stock line - that anybody who had a problem with how they climbed was either jealous, unable or uncool... Childish crap. It has to do with honesty.
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roninthorne
Dec 14, 2002, 3:31 PM
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lotta spew here, lotta vectoring into BS and non-sequitors. I'll leave that to your local version of Lord Slime to deal with. But I do take exception to this comment:
"...the sport climber's stock line - that anybody who had a problem with how they climbed was either jealous, unable or uncool..."
Now, I AM a sport climber... and a trad climber... and an aid climber... and a toproper. Love to boulder, and even the gym's an okay place to pull when the weather sucks, you want some new company, or you wanna spend an evening seeing the major pros and cons of wearing spandex and sport bras....
But I digress... point is, IT'S ALL CLIMBING!!! And among the sport climbers I know (who, like myself also enjoy every other form of the sport to some degree or another), using a line or displaying an attitude like the one quoted would be the fastest path to ostracization (being viewed as a poser, for the less literate spewmasters out there).
My "stock" line has been "If you don't like something about my route, please tell me and I'll either explain why it's like that or see what can be done to fix it."
It is only when that meets with an attitude-filled response that I fall back to stock line #2: "There are plenty of other things to climb in the world... have at it."
Any grief given sport climbers by trads STRICTLY BECAUSE THE CLIP BOLTS amounts to nothing more than the age old "MY Style is better than Your Style".
You can try to lead the discussion down the primrose path of bolted cracks and rock defacement and increasing crowds, but these are all really avoiding the issues, and rarely if ever produce compromise or deeper understanding.
If you stripped all the bolted cracks.. no, forget that... if you stripped ALL the bolted ROUTES, there would probably be just as many people out climbing again in a few years. And this time you'd have nothing to rag on 'cuz they'd be placing gear JUST LIKE YOU!!
Of course, some folks can always find something to complain about, so I doubt even these drastic measures would bring peace.
Just the sight of newcomers sends some folks into a froth.
Too bad.
They are there because that is what the media and mass culture is selling them and that's what is currently en vogue. Build a bridge and get over it... new styles and faces are here to stay.
An understanding of basic sociology goes a long way in seeing that it is human nature- to break the rules, reach beyond your boundaries and explore the unknown- not some certain style of climbing, that is responsible for many of the climbing community's newest woes.
And it is the jealousy and possessiveness of that nature that is responsible for most of its oldest arguments, as well.
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ljthawk
Dec 14, 2002, 7:17 PM
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Do want to add one more point, cracks aren't the only features that take natural protection. The phrase, "shouldn't put a bolt next to a crack" or "don't bolt a crack" should really say "shouldn't put a bolt next to a "good" gear placement" or "don't bolt a line that is safely naturally protected with gear". True, cracks are the most obvious and prominent trad lines, but not he only.
Flame on.
L.J.
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vulgarian
Dec 15, 2002, 12:48 AM
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Gimme a break, it's all good. Whether I'm spotting the perfect slot for a nut or a sparkling new hanger - I'm always glad to see it.
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vulgarian
Dec 15, 2002, 12:51 AM
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What does suck is calling a hang a redpoint or placing bolts every meter. This is especially bothersome on overhanging routes where the fall is clean.
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mreardon
Dec 17, 2002, 1:00 AM
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JT - gotta' disagree with you on some of this. Higher end sport climbing is nowhere near as complex as higher end trad. Both have the same endurance and power issues. But trad has way more physical and mental complexity. Trad will use sport moves, whle sport climbs rarely use trad moves. For example, I use drop knees and heel hooks on all kinds of trad routes, but can't remember the last time I used a foot jam or fingerlock on a sport route. As for the mental, in sport you only have to worry about clipping the bolt. Trad you have to worry about what gear, where, and how much? Completely different animal. But in the end it is all climbing. Just don't equate the two. Each is better for their own reasons.
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kalcario
Dec 17, 2002, 1:41 AM
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I have posted a lot of pictures of single pitch limestone sport routes in Europe and other places on this site. When you stand at the base of one of those things, I don't care if you stare at it for a year - you'll still have *no idea* what you're gonna be doing up there until you get up there. Now stand at the base of an Indian Creek or Yosemite style single pitch crack route. Unless you're blind or dumb you can tell if it's layback or straight in, fingers, hands, wide, etc. I remember a comment that trad master Steve Hong made in a R&I interview some years ago, he said that the stuff you have to do on a hard crack climb "is trivial" compared to a hard sport route. Being a devout sport climber now but coming from a trad background,I have to tell y'all that placing your own pro is really not that big of a deal. If you are adept at placing gear, and you trust it, than there is really not that much difference between that and clipping bolts. There really is no need to regard wiggling in your own gear with this sort of breathless awe that I see on this site fairly regularly...
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maddie
Dec 17, 2002, 2:12 AM
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I think there are bigger environmental issues than putting bolts in rock! (not that im saying it isnt an issue)
maybe if people could understand how great outdoor activities are and how beutiful the wilderness is they would look after the environment better..
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tomcranks
Jan 1, 2003, 6:18 PM
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"Sport Climing is Neither" is the attitude of some. (So you don't have to think too hard, that means they don't consider it sport OR climbing.)
The greatest level of mental involvement comes with trad. Purists rightly consider it a denigration to change the nature of what made a route what it is. Consider the level of protection and the original experience of the first ascensionist. Respect the local area's ethics. Bring yourself up to the level of a climb; don't ruin its nature by bringing a climb down to your level.
If you're scared, stay home.
[ This Message was edited by: tomcranks on 2003-01-01 12:25 ]
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fitz
Jan 1, 2003, 7:03 PM
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Sport, trad, alpine, bouldering, etc. all stress different aspects of the sport. Having tried all of them, I'd have to say, 'try it before you trash it' to any self appointed purists or cutting edge rebels.
At the end of the day, they are all about having some fun and pushing some personal limits. Anyone who forgets that and starts taking things too seriously should really stop for a reality check.
My only complaint with the popularity of sport climbing and bouldering is that boom boxes, trash, amazing amounts of chalk, and some chipping and bolting practices can screw up access for everyone. Most of the world does not split hairs over equipment and techniques, all 'climbers', including scrambling morons who tumble to their deaths, are seen as one group.
If you are going to come outside, learn a little respect for nature, and the other people outside enjoying it. That goes for oldsters like me as well. Sport climbing and bouldering are here to stay, and loud public bolting wars, etc., just bring all climbing into the public's eye in a negative light.
-jjf
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crack_head
Jan 1, 2003, 7:17 PM
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hey why don't we ruin some more rock? lets bolt every %@#$ing route
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wildtrail
Jan 1, 2003, 7:40 PM
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http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=21611&forum=20&start=60
To answer the actual question.
Easy. There is a time and place for bolts. A bolted line in a system of cracks is stupid, but a bolted line in a system of nothing is needed. Hey, don't get me wrong. I'm typically against bolting and don't sport climb, but there IS a time and place for bolting. It's just a choice in what medium you climb. Some like sport, some like trad. In the end, it's all climbing and all climbers are good in my book. Which, is why I answered the original question the way I did (see link).
Steve
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easysteve
Jan 3, 2003, 12:58 PM
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New #1 stupidest all time thread.
New top 5 entry for stupidest user.
If you can't afford cams stop spending all your money on prAna beenies and girlie mags or (oh my god) suffice yourself with toproping that which you cannot lead (what a f*cking concept, eh?).
josh
I just have to say that was a pretty smart response from such a brilliant person there. Man, you don't know any of the people on here so don't make judgement calls on them. Who cares what other people have to say? I'm sorry, but is it your f*cking job to take care of everyone on this site? Damn mook.
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redpoint73
Jan 3, 2003, 1:08 PM
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I believe in minimal environmental impact. But maddie is right, there are worse issues than bolts (especially if an area is not overbolted). Have you thought about how much impact a hiking trail does? Especially when people are cutting switchbacks or widening to trail (to avoid rain puddles, etc.), killing more plants and increasing erosion. Plus, all the garbage/litter at outdoor areas (that is often cleanup up by climbers). I won't even get into ATV's or dirt bikes.
There is no such thing as causing "NO" environmental impact on a climbing area -- unless you stay at home. Things such as parking lots, hiking trails facilitate the enjoyment of outdoor areas. Bolts, when insatlled tastefully, do the same thing.
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pbjosh
Jan 3, 2003, 5:26 PM
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Quote:
I just have to say that was a pretty smart response from such a brilliant person there.
Then kindly heed your own advice (below) regarding judgement calls.
Quote:
Man, you don't know any of the people on here so don't make judgement calls on them.
I do know a lot of people on the site and I don't know even more of 'em. I will continue to make the judgement call that bolting cracks is idiotic. Unfortunately the original post was removed (which I JUDGE to be a lame feature - posts should live ad infinitum, ala rec.climbing, no matter what they contain). The original post was something to the tune of "why can't I bolt a crack to let everyone who can't afford cams climb it. trad climbers are rich/elitist" or some such. But I guess you missed that and are now making your judgement calls, ill-informed no less.
Quote:
Who cares what other people have to say? I'm sorry, but is it your f*cking job to take care of everyone on this site? Damn mook.
If you didn't care what other people had to say you wouldn't be here in the first place and you certainly wouldn't be responding to me. Is it your job to take care of me? Damn [sic] hypocrite.
josh
[ This Message was edited by: pbjosh on 2003-01-03 09:27 ]
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pbjosh
Jan 3, 2003, 6:15 PM
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Hey Jay,
It could be neither of us is terribly qualified to debate whether very hard sport climbing or very hard trad climbing is harder, heh Mike (Reardon)'s logic is my logic at the levels I climb at though. Be it a 5.9 fist crack in a weird corner with a squeeze chimney rest vs. a 5.9 face climb or a 5.12- tips disaster vs. a super thin 5.12- face climb vs. a 5.12- super steep cave problem, I have more problems working moves and figuring out the best strategies on cracks than faces of equal rating, and I spend more time crack climbing than face.
josh
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ClimbSoHigh
Jun 21, 2010, 4:33 PM
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Trad climbers diss sport climbers for many reasons, but mainly because trad climbers have the biggest ego's.
Also most trad climbers can easily climb sport safely, but sport climbers usually can not climb trad safely.
Sport climbers usually climb harder routes in terms of ratings/difficulty than trad climbers, which makes sense since placing pro takes more time than clipping bolts. (very few people are sending 5.14 trad while many people, even kids are sending 5.14 sport). This angers trad climbers and gets their ego kicking.
I for one used to be a sport climber with a little bit of ego, but now that i switched to trad, my ego is much bigger. I'm now one of those assholes showing off their rack to anyone who will look.
I guess the free soloists should be dissing everyone, but they are off doing their own thing, lol.
But in reality, we are all a bunch of idiots climbing rocks, making a much bigger deal about it than we should.
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mojomonkey
Jun 21, 2010, 4:48 PM
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ClimbSoHigh wrote: Trad climbers diss sport climbers for many reasons, but mainly because trad climbers have the biggest ego's. Also most trad climbers can easily climb sport safely, but sport climbers usually can not climb trad safely. Sport climbers usually climb harder routes in terms of ratings/difficulty than trad climbers, which makes sense since placing pro takes more time than clipping bolts. (very few people are sending 5.14 trad while many people, even kids are sending 5.14 sport). This angers trad climbers and gets their ego kicking. I for one used to be a sport climber with a little bit of ego, but now that i switched to trad, my ego is much bigger. I'm now one of those assholes showing off their rack to anyone who will look. I guess the free soloists should be dissing everyone, but they are off doing their own thing, lol. But in reality, we are all a bunch of idiots climbing rocks, making a much bigger deal about it than we should.
Hopefully that puts the issue to bed... for at least another 7+ years.
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rangerrob
Jun 21, 2010, 9:06 PM
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There is actually a really easy answer to this. Watch a video about some kid sending a hard 5.14 clip up. Then, watch a video about some obscure crazy Brit doing an FA on an 80' sea stack with two small brass wires for pro and a 50' run out to the top. When you realize which video makes you hold your breath and cringe in suspense....you'll have your answer.
RR
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rock_fencer
Jun 21, 2010, 9:31 PM
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the one with the taped hooks is even better!! cant remember which film, but man that was crazy stuff
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angry
Jun 21, 2010, 10:29 PM
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Nike, Air Jordon, Miley Cyrus, Prana great prices click here. Love me, touch me, console my asshole, www.dickeaterfrenzy.ca marky mark
Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck.
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 21, 2010, 10:44 PM
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Most of the really solid climbers that i know do both.
the biggest problem with spurt climbing is that for the most part you are limited to 1/2 pitch climbs at crowded venues. lots of stuff out there that you simple can not get up with just a sport rack and the sport skills even if you have big 5.13 guns. The climbers who can crank big numbers at the spurt wall, lead big trad climbs and hike 5+ ice like its easy are the ones who get my respect. If all you do it spurt climb or boulder you may be strong but there are a ton of places you will never get to experience. YMMV
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jakedatc
Jun 21, 2010, 10:54 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Most of the really solid climbers that i know do both. the biggest problem with spurt climbing is that for the most part you are limited to 1/2 pitch climbs at crowded venues. lots of stuff out there that you simple can not get up with just a sport rack and the sport skills even if you have big 5.13 guns. The climbers who can crank big numbers at the spurt wall, lead big trad climbs and hike 5+ ice like its easy are the ones who get my respect. If all you do it spurt climb or boulder you may be strong but there are a ton of places you will never get to experience. YMMV
And there are sport areas where 5.6 trad climbers can't even dream about the warm up.. ie Rifle, Ceuse, most of RRG, etc
And trad i will keep telling you that if you worry about the crowds at rumney then you either don't climb hard enough or your knowledge of the area is limited. The gunks, cathedral, whitehorse are just as crowded
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drector
Jun 21, 2010, 10:58 PM
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Don't place bolts next to seven year old threads. The thread should only be done in the style of the OP and that style needs to be respected.
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 22, 2010, 11:52 AM
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Jake maby you misinterpreted my post. I respect the heck out out of sport climbers who can do more than just sport climb. on the same note I don't have much respect for weak tradclimbers who diss sport climbing. My usual response when they get on their rant about how bad Rumny is, is to tell them, Rumny is great! You can get super strong there.
Sport climbings biggest drawback is is if you don't diversify you usually can't get up any of the major rock formations and are left to wank arround getting super strong on little rocks.
If you can't climb 5.13 sport you miss out on on a bunch of 30m climbs. If you climb 5.13 sport but don't have the skills to get up 5.10 trad you miss out on all the super cool desert towers, all the major cliffs and pretty much anything that is not bolted or a boulder problem.
Of course the 5.13 sport climber is going to have a super short learning curve if they choose to open their horizions and start climbing larger unbolted formations. Guys/gals who have a trad background and have migrated to sport are a different story. If they see somthing cool that is not bolted they have the skills to climb it if they choose.
I guess I don't respect small minded people even if they are super strong.
At the end of the day if I had to choose between not getting off the ground at Rifel and not being able to get up the Diamond or Devils Tower I am quite certain that I would be missing a whole lot less by skipping Rifle!
Spot climbing is awsome. its fun and it gets you strong but if you get hung up on being a sport climber instead of just a climber you have severly limited yourself.
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camhead
Jun 22, 2010, 1:07 PM
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Ok, this thread is very old, and I just re-read some of my posts from nearly eight years ago there... my views have modified slightly.
You may not think it, but in my anecdotal experience, I have actually seen WAY more gumbies who don't know what they are doing climbing trad than climbing sport.
I think that the reason is this: to climb sport anywhere, you need to, at the very minimum, be able to do 5.8 moves. Believe it or not, this keeps quite a few people away. Oppose this with trad at a place like the Gunks, where you have completely out of shape, sketchy leaders who can seek out and climb a fricking 5.2.
Ironically enough, trad is more accessible to people who have no business on the rock.
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jakedatc
Jun 22, 2010, 1:18 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Jake maby you misinterpreted my post. I respect the heck out out of sport climbers who can do more than just sport climb. on the same note I don't have much respect for weak tradclimbers who diss sport climbing. My usual response when they get on their rant about how bad Rumny is, is to tell them, Rumny is great! You can get super strong there. Sport climbings biggest drawback is is if you don't diversify you usually can't get up any of the major rock formations and are left to wank arround getting super strong on little rocks. If you can't climb 5.13 sport you miss out on on a bunch of 30m climbs. If you climb 5.13 sport but don't have the skills to get up 5.10 trad you miss out on all the super cool desert towers, all the major cliffs and pretty much anything that is not bolted or a boulder problem. Of course the 5.13 sport climber is going to have a super short learning curve if they choose to open their horizions and start climbing larger unbolted formations. Guys/gals who have a trad background and have migrated to sport are a different story. If they see somthing cool that is not bolted they have the skills to climb it if they choose. I guess I don't respect small minded people even if they are super strong. At the end of the day if I had to choose between not getting off the ground at Rifel and not being able to get up the Diamond or Devils Tower I am quite certain that I would be missing a whole lot less by skipping Rifle! Spot climbing is awsome. its fun and it gets you strong but if you get hung up on being a sport climber instead of just a climber you have severly limited yourself.
gotcha.. I think that a lot of people assume that because someone sport climbs that they don't do anything else.
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bradley3297
Jun 22, 2010, 1:29 PM
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OMG let this 8 year old thread die.
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 22, 2010, 4:25 PM
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My screen name is got to be over 10 years old. ASnyone who defines themselfs rigidly as a trad climber,sport climber ,boulder etc is just limiting themselfs to a narow minded existance.
I am just a climber.
You think Tommy caldwell would be even a 10th as cool as he is if he was just one of the best sport climbers in the world? Hell no! He is 1,000 times cooler than a David Grahm because he is one of the best CLIMBERS in the world.
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the_climber
Jun 22, 2010, 6:46 PM
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It used to be just "Climbing".... You climbed "Rock" in summer, and "Snow/Ice" in winter. It was all practice for Alpine (Mountaineering).
Now we have "Gym Climbing", "Bouldering", "Sport Climbing", "wanking", "Posing", ...
Some of us "Climb" while others have to qualify what they do with subcategories.
Oh, and Sport Climbing is neither.
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petsfed
Jun 22, 2010, 6:55 PM
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camhead wrote: I think that the reason is this: to climb sport anywhere, you need to, at the very minimum, be able to do 5.8 moves. Believe it or not, this keeps quite a few people away. Oppose this with trad at a place like the Gunks, where you have completely out of shape, sketchy leaders who can seek out and climb a fricking 5.2. Ironically enough, trad is more accessible to people who have no business on the rock.
This is true. If you want to avoid waiting in line, for the most part just climb harder than the median ability frequenting the area. In some places, that means 5.9. In other places, (Rifle for instance) that means 5.13.
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karmiclimber
Jun 22, 2010, 7:00 PM
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ClimbSoHigh wrote: Trad climbers diss sport climbers for many reasons, but mainly because trad climbers have the biggest ego's. Also most trad climbers can easily climb sport safely, but sport climbers usually can not climb trad safely. Sport climbers usually climb harder routes in terms of ratings/difficulty than trad climbers, which makes sense since placing pro takes more time than clipping bolts. (very few people are sending 5.14 trad while many people, even kids are sending 5.14 sport). This angers trad climbers and gets their ego kicking. I for one used to be a sport climber with a little bit of ego, but now that i switched to trad, my ego is much bigger. I'm now one of those assholes showing off their rack to anyone who will look. I guess the free soloists should be dissing everyone, but they are off doing their own thing, lol. But in reality, we are all a bunch of idiots climbing rocks, making a much bigger deal about it than we should.
I'm so 3008. You so 2000 and late.
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jakedatc
Jun 22, 2010, 7:26 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: You think Tommy caldwell would be even a 10th as cool as he is if he was just one of the best sport climbers in the world? Hell no! He is 1,000 times cooler than a David Grahm because he is one of the best CLIMBERS in the world.
Why is tommy so cool again? because he goes and free's a few aid routes? DG helped put so many areas on the map through development of routes there. Tommys bouldering is well behind the elite boulderers and his sport climbing is behind most pro climbers so he has a very small niche of stuff he excels at. His development of new areas is practically non existant.
Next time you're at rumney or Pway go take a look at some of dave's FAs and see how uncool they are. You can't even fathom how to get off the ground let alone find, clean and FA them.
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karmiclimber
Jun 22, 2010, 7:30 PM
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jakedatc wrote: tradmanclimbs wrote: You think Tommy caldwell would be even a 10th as cool as he is if he was just one of the best sport climbers in the world? Hell no! He is 1,000 times cooler than a David Grahm because he is one of the best CLIMBERS in the world. because he goes and free's a few aid routes? DG helped put so many areas on the map through development of routes there. Tommys bouldering is well behind the elite boulderers and his sport climbing is behind most pro climbers so he has a very small niche of stuff he excels at. His development of new areas is practically non existant. Next time you're at rumney or Pway go take a look at some of dave's FAs and see how uncool they are. You can't even fathom how to get off the ground let alone find, clean and FA them.
Um, I don't think he is.
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rangerrob
Jun 22, 2010, 7:35 PM
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I'd pick caldwell over Graham anyday to be on the list of best climbers. Not that either of them are in the top 5
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welle
Jun 22, 2010, 7:36 PM
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If Tommy stopped hiking up and down the valley and lost his muscle mass from his legs, I'm sure he'd up his sport and bouldering ante. It's funny how sport climbers are pre-occupied with keeping their legs lean. I was recently reading a training article and it went as far as saying that running is not good for climbers as it bulks up the legs. But if I want to do any long routes or alpine climbs, I need to get those leg muscles strong!
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jakedatc
Jun 22, 2010, 7:41 PM
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welle wrote: If Tommy stopped hiking up and down the valley and lost his muscle mass from his legs, I'm sure he'd up his sport and bouldering ante. It's funny how sport climbers are pre-occupied with keeping their legs lean. I was recently reading a training article and it went as far as saying that running is not good for climbers as it bulks up the legs. But if I want to do any long routes or alpine climbs, I need to get those leg muscles strong!
tommy has never been in the top of the sport climbing or bouldering world before or after his finger accident. it has nothing to do with his legs.
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welle
Jun 22, 2010, 7:47 PM
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^^when I said legs, I didn't mean his finger accident. I just think trad climbers have stronger legs compared to their upper body strength as opposed to sport climbers. You can't hang on much on your one arm while placing gear... I don't know much about Tommy, but I suspect he'd found his strength in balance moves way before he moved to trad climbing therefore he naturally found himself progressing into traditional climbing and freeing hard balancey face moves...
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jakedatc
Jun 22, 2010, 7:53 PM
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rangerrob wrote: I'd pick caldwell over Graham anyday to be on the list of best climbers. Not that either of them are in the top 5
"best" climber means nothing. The top guys specialize to be the best so trying to compare across is stupid and useless
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jakedatc
Jun 22, 2010, 7:57 PM
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welle wrote: ^^when I said legs, I didn't mean his finger accident. I just think trad climbers have stronger legs compared to their upper body strength as opposed to sport climbers. You can't hang on much on your one arm while placing gear... I don't know much about Tommy, but I suspect he'd found his strength in balance moves way before he moved to trad climbing therefore he naturally found himself progressing into traditional climbing and freeing hard balancey face moves...
i know what you meant, and i still don't think it has anything to do with anything. Sharma weights way more than DG and climbs harder. Alex honnold is a scrawney tall bastard who does all kinds of scary techy face, grit, granite routes
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 22, 2010, 8:37 PM
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let me put it to you real simple. If you live in Colorado and climb 5.13 at rifle yet have never been up the Diamond or in to the black caynon or down to the desert you are basicly wasteing your talent and esentually wanking off on little rocks. kind of like a porn star that never actually does it with a real woman.
Same thing goes in the north east.
if you climb 5.13 in rumny yet have never done the prow on cathedral, Direct Direct and Duet direct on cannon. etc. same deal. complete waste of talent.
Heck I know some pretty solid sport climbers who can't even get up the eaglet which is a real darn cool formation. closest thing we have in the north east to a desert tower.
I may only be able to get up one climb at wiamea but I have been up a whole crapload of real cool stuff that most folks who call themselfs Sport climbers simply can not do. It is not because of lack of talent or strength it is simply ignorance. Too cheap to invest in a rack and think that Trad is for old fat bald guys. Give these guys a rack and a few days of gear lessons and they would be climbing all kinds off reall cool shit. Every now and then I convert one and its awsome to see how much fun they have and how fast they progress.
yea, tommy is about 1,000 times cooler than Dave
Free your mind and experience a climb longer than 30m its actually pretty darn fun.
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 22, 2010, 8:45 PM
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Ask any honest woman and she will tell you. Size Does Matter
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jt512
Jun 22, 2010, 8:53 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: let me put it to you real simple. If you live in Colorado and climb 5.13 at rifle yet have never been up the Diamond or in to the black caynon or down to the desert you are basicly wasteing your talent...
What a ridiculous statement.
Jay
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jakedatc
Jun 22, 2010, 9:20 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: let me put it to you real simple. If you live in Colorado and climb 5.13 at rifle yet have never been up the Diamond or in to the black caynon or down to the desert you are basicly wasteing your talent and esentually wanking off on little rocks. kind of like a porn star that never actually does it with a real woman. Same thing goes in the north east. if you climb 5.13 in rumny yet have never done the prow on cathedral, Direct Direct and Duet direct on cannon. etc. same deal. complete waste of talent. Heck I know some pretty solid sport climbers who can't even get up the eaglet which is a real darn cool formation. closest thing we have in the north east to a desert tower. I may only be able to get up one climb at wiamea but I have been up a whole crapload of real cool stuff that most folks who call themselfs Sport climbers simply can not do. It is not because of lack of talent or strength it is simply ignorance. Too cheap to invest in a rack and think that Trad is for old fat bald guys. Give these guys a rack and a few days of gear lessons and they would be climbing all kinds off reall cool shit. Every now and then I convert one and its awsome to see how much fun they have and how fast they progress. yea, tommy is about 1,000 times cooler than Dave Free your mind and experience a climb longer than 30m its actually pretty darn fun.
I'd rather climb 30m rumney routes than the greasy shit you call Cathedral. I also have no interest in Cannon's exfoliating choss heap.
Calling people too cheap to buy a rack in this economy is pretty ignorant and downright disrespectful.
I go to the gunks if i want to do trad. They have the type of climb that i find aesthetic. I have a feeling my sport climbing ass will climb circles around you there since it is not mindless handjam plugging the whole way. It is a shorter drive and it has less bolt war douche bags with elitist prick attitudes.
In reply to: yea, tommy is about 1,000 times cooler than Dave
apparently he's single now so you can go cradle his balls all you want.
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 22, 2010, 9:42 PM
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I am certain that you can kick my ass but you can not seem to grasp my point. If you have climbed trad in the past then decided to focus on sport that is fine. its your choice but at least you have aparently been to the gunks and canon. The folks that i am talking about never had that opertunity to climb any of the bigger formations. they seem to look at trad as too expensive and not cool enough or whatever so they never get to experience what its like to be on a really big cliff or on top of a tower.
Screw it , if you want to drive all the way to Vegas and wank arround the quarry or charleston that is your deal. variety is the spice of life. I prefer to do long climbs in black velvet and then drive up to st george for a bit of sport climbiung and then on to Zion for an eye opener. it's all good. You may be a better climber but i can garuntee you that i have more variety and more fun bumbleing my way through and not worrying about what I eat or weather i am clipping bolts, pounding pins, drilling bolts, swinging ice axes or free soloing.. its all good.
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jakedatc
Jun 22, 2010, 10:09 PM
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Lets see, i've sport climbed on Shist, sandstone, Gniess and Limestone. In 3 states and Ontario seems like variety to me. I've climbed routes that were 2 bolts and routes that were 16 bolts long. I've climbed routes that were head down ass out slab and routes that are almost completely horizontal roofs. I've had to rap down to ledges and hanging belays overlooking Lake Huron.
you should perhaps sport climb more places if you think you cannot find a great experience clipping bolts. perhaps you have your own blinders on. Bigger isn't always better. I prefer to pull harder than to go higher. I can see why you would prefer the opposite since you can't do the other.
news flash. Trad is expensive. I know because i have a small rack of singles from green alien to #3 c4, 1 set nuts, 3 tricams, and a few hexes and it's quite a lot invested. 2 cams cost more than a whole set of draws.
also not sure why you're throwing around all these places out west when we both live in the NE... never been to these places and probably won't
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I_do
Jun 23, 2010, 10:18 AM
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angry wrote: Nike, Air Jordon, Miley Cyrus, Prana great prices click here. Love me, touch me, console my asshole, www.dickeaterfrenzy.ca marky mark Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck.
Dude your link leads nowhere, way to disappoint people...
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angry
Jun 23, 2010, 11:35 AM
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I_do wrote: angry wrote: Nike, Air Jordon, Miley Cyrus, Prana great prices click here. Love me, touch me, console my asshole, www.dickeaterfrenzy.ca marky mark Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck. Dude your link leads nowhere, way to disappoint people...
Like this thread?
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rangerrob
Jun 23, 2010, 2:39 PM
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Jake you climb at Rumney and you call Cathedral and Cannon choss heaps? Your post was probably the single most ridiculous thing I have ever read on this website, and that's saying a lot! Cathedral and Cannon have spawned some of the best climbers that America has ever produced. People who have gone on to revolutionize the game. We're talking Barber, Webster, Bragg, Bouchard, House..the list goes on and on. I'm guessing you like the Gunks because of the approach more than anything else. Tell me about a 5.7 in the Gunks that even comes close to the Whitney Gilman Ridge. Or a single pitch of 5.8 that can beat Reppy Crack. How about a 5.9 that can rival Vertigo. You have no idera what you are talking about my friend.
All that being said...you should probably stay at your little schist heap called Rumney. Stay on the carraige way in the Gunks. You may get hurt if you go off trail. and explore. Don't ever go to Millbrook, that's a total choss heap by your standards. You might faint when you realize there isn't a single bolt on that cliff. There's just a whole lot of balls hard out there climbing.
RR
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jakedatc
Jun 23, 2010, 3:05 PM
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Actually rob i like the gunks because it's overhanging and not slabby greasefest like cathedral. I've never been on cannon and it has zero appeal to me at ALL. I could care less about close or far approaches. I'm not some fat ass trad tard who needs to worry about getting tired while walking.
I haven't been on it yet but all accounts say CCK is amazing.. and looks ever bit of it. and even doesn't have microwaves falling off it!
5.8? Bonnies Roof... Modern Times, Double Crack
5.9 Directissima, MF(ive heard),
how about getting out of the warm ups and doing some hard sport.. Social outcast, Technosurfing, Orangahang... oh wait.. you can't pull that hard sorry, you'll just have to trust me.
yea.. rumney has shitty climbers. Ward smith, Dave quinn, chris smith, Mark sprague, Dave graham, Vasya V, Jay Conway (*gasp* he also climbs 13+ at your cathedral too)
Gunks? maybe you've heard of our own Rgold, Weissner, Lynn hill, russ clune. etc
Cornflake elitist pricks can't place a bolt or chop a bolt without having an all out war i'd rather stay away from douchebags like that. I'll stick to places where folks agree on what is best for the climbers and cliff and do it well.
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welle
Jun 23, 2010, 3:26 PM
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How can you compare CCK to W-G? CCK's flake is just not long enough! You like Gunks because it's mostly sport climbing on gear and crappy pins - huge jugs, big roofs, pumpy overhanging routes. Next time you come down you should try some face climbs, say Classic or Hyjek's Horror - you'll be begging to get back on the Cathedral/Whitehorse granite. Ask RangerRob for more face climb recommendations 
(This post was edited by welle on Jun 23, 2010, 3:29 PM)
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angry
Jun 23, 2010, 3:49 PM
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I wonder if Jake could send your projects? And if you guys could send his. Who would put less effort into it? I'm guessing he'd figure out your easy trad in days and you guys may never climb upper 12 sport.
Seems to me you guys are bragging about climbing at a level that was considered easy 30 years ago.
That said, to live in co and not climb on the diamond, black, or desert is a total waste. Rifle is a forgettable chose heap that just happens to be pumpy. And Tommy Caldwell will go down as one of the greatest climbers of his generation.
(This post was edited by angry on Jun 23, 2010, 3:52 PM)
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jakedatc
Jun 23, 2010, 4:47 PM
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welle wrote: How can you compare CCK to W-G? CCK's flake is just not long enough! You like Gunks because it's mostly sport climbing on gear and crappy pins - huge jugs, big roofs, pumpy overhanging routes. Next time you come down you should try some face climbs, say Classic or Hyjek's Horror - you'll be begging to get back on the Cathedral/Whitehorse granite. Ask RangerRob for more face climb recommendations
You guys would climb a staircase if it was long enough and call it a 3 star classic.
I did Jackie with a mistake that led to some unprotected part of Jasmine sunday.. similar to classic. did oscar and Charlie Pitch 1.. if you haven't done that you should give it a go.. for 5.7 you have to do some techy moves. I onsighted Laurel with ease.. you guys probably freak out right off the ground cuz you have to do a hard move. I followed a friend up Keep on Struttin' there's some techy shit for you.
You want some spray? 1 hung onsight attempt of Ro shampo 12a, Onsighted Aquaduck pocket 11b, Relaxed atmosphere 11c, Third world lover 11c/d, Burning bush 11a (HA clicker!), Gullivers travels 11b, Curl up and Fly 12a in a few days of tries, Orangahang 12b <10 burns.
If you don't think i can do small crimpy shit you are sadly mistaken. I've bouldered V6-7.
If you want to trade project for project like Angry says.. bring it. 5.7 for 1000 feet.. sure. Try to get off the ground on what i'm working and maybe we'll talk
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shoo
Jun 23, 2010, 5:28 PM
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Y'all do realize that there are people who are able to and enjoy climbing both hard Cathedral style trad and hard Rumney sport, right?
[spray]I climb pretty much identically as hard as you sport (maybe a touch worse, but pretty damn close) and also love me some hard jammin' and pluggin' action.[/spray]
Does that give me the right to tell y'all to shut yer traps?
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jakedatc
Jun 23, 2010, 5:35 PM
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shoo wrote: Y'all do realize that there are people who are able to and enjoy climbing both hard Cathedral style trad and hard Rumney sport, right? [spray]I climb pretty much identically as hard as you sport (maybe a touch worse, but pretty damn close) and also love me some hard jammin' and pluggin' action.[/spray] Does that give me the right to tell y'all to shut yer traps?
You got a pic of Rock wars as your avatar.. that is good enough for me. I also like climbing trad.. albeit at the gunks rather than NH. I just laugh at trad folks who spray about how tall their routes are like it actually means something... but it is all they got so i guess they have to hold onto it.
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welle
Jun 23, 2010, 5:43 PM
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Jake, I wasn't dissing on you, Rumney or sport climbers. I was just defending some really amazing granite you guys have up there in NH, and by no means I was spraying. I've only been to N. Conway once and was amazed how sticky the rock on the popular climbs that you guys call "polished". I was also impressed by the effort local climbers put into keeping traditional climbing in its purest form, some times to the degree of absurdity. Those chopped, re-chopped bolts and epoxied hole marks rather look ugly. If Rumney was a bit closer to where I live, I'd probably spend more time there, but right now if I'm traveling that far I'd rather climb something tall, exposed, where i have to solve some route-finding problems and scare myself shitless on sketchy off-widths.
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zeke_sf
Jun 23, 2010, 5:51 PM
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jakedatc wrote: shoo wrote: Y'all do realize that there are people who are able to and enjoy climbing both hard Cathedral style trad and hard Rumney sport, right? [spray]I climb pretty much identically as hard as you sport (maybe a touch worse, but pretty damn close) and also love me some hard jammin' and pluggin' action.[/spray] Does that give me the right to tell y'all to shut yer traps? You got a pic of Rock wars as your avatar.. that is good enough for me. I also like climbing trad.. albeit at the gunks rather than NH. I just laugh at trad folks who spray about how tall their routes are like it actually means something... but it is all they got so i guess they have to hold onto it.
A different sense of aesthetics is the answer. I like both - albeit at a moderate level - so you're not going to find me invested in this argument.
This is all like a father vs. son argument where each is actually more similar than he'd like to admit but too pissed in the moment to actually make sense of their differences.
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jakedatc
Jun 23, 2010, 6:09 PM
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zeke_sf wrote: jakedatc wrote: shoo wrote: Y'all do realize that there are people who are able to and enjoy climbing both hard Cathedral style trad and hard Rumney sport, right? [spray]I climb pretty much identically as hard as you sport (maybe a touch worse, but pretty damn close) and also love me some hard jammin' and pluggin' action.[/spray] Does that give me the right to tell y'all to shut yer traps? You got a pic of Rock wars as your avatar.. that is good enough for me. I also like climbing trad.. albeit at the gunks rather than NH. I just laugh at trad folks who spray about how tall their routes are like it actually means something... but it is all they got so i guess they have to hold onto it. A different sense of aesthetics is the answer. I like both - albeit at a moderate level - so you're not going to find me invested in this argument. This is all like a father vs. son argument where each is actually more similar than he'd like to admit but too pissed in the moment to actually make sense of their differences.
It is true. However the point of the OP (i think) is that trad climbers shit on sport climbers a lot more than the reverse. Trad climbers tend to think that sport climbers cannot do what they do.
Luckily for my style and route choices you can teach gear placement and rope work faster than you can develop strength.
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zeke_sf
Jun 23, 2010, 6:17 PM
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jakedatc wrote: zeke_sf wrote: jakedatc wrote: shoo wrote: Y'all do realize that there are people who are able to and enjoy climbing both hard Cathedral style trad and hard Rumney sport, right? [spray]I climb pretty much identically as hard as you sport (maybe a touch worse, but pretty damn close) and also love me some hard jammin' and pluggin' action.[/spray] Does that give me the right to tell y'all to shut yer traps? You got a pic of Rock wars as your avatar.. that is good enough for me. I also like climbing trad.. albeit at the gunks rather than NH. I just laugh at trad folks who spray about how tall their routes are like it actually means something... but it is all they got so i guess they have to hold onto it. A different sense of aesthetics is the answer. I like both - albeit at a moderate level - so you're not going to find me invested in this argument. This is all like a father vs. son argument where each is actually more similar than he'd like to admit but too pissed in the moment to actually make sense of their differences. It is true. However the point of the OP (i think) is that trad climbers shit on sport climbers a lot more than the reverse. Trad climbers tend to think that sport climbers cannot do what they do. Luckily for my style and route choices you can teach gear placement and rope work faster than you can develop strength.
Yeah, and alpine climbers shit on all of us. Get over it is the main point of my argument.
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rangerrob
Jun 23, 2010, 8:16 PM
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Jake I don't think I was bragging about how hard I can climb. Anyone who knows me knows I make 5.10 look like 5.14. You're the one who is spewing off route names that you can do. But do you seriously consider MF to even be in the same league as Vertigo? MF is 100' of climbing with two 5.9 moves on it. The exposure of the pipe pitch on Whitney G puts CCK's face to shame, and while Bonnies is really cool, you just can't beat Moby Grape/Reppy Crack for a 5.8 adventure.
You've been clipping bolts for how long? I've been on two trips where I clipped bolts more than a day and within a couple of days I was onsighting 5.11's, including The Flyin Hawaian at Rumney. So if you can onsight 5.12 on bolts why are not sending Gunks 11's like the yellow Wall and Kligfields Follies?
You don't need to answer that, because I know the answer.....it's not even the same freaking game.
By the way, the next time I rope up with RGold i'll ask him about Cannon. I'm not sure, but I'm guessing he may have an opinion similar to mine. I'll also ask him who those other people are...I've never heard of them!! HA HA HA
To put it simply, the Gunks offers some great climbing, but Cannon is the baddest chunk of rock in the Northeast. Rumney doesn't even make the top 5.
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rangerrob
Jun 23, 2010, 8:22 PM
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Welle, that face climbing comment was a cheap shot! You know I suck at it!
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camhead
Jun 23, 2010, 9:05 PM
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ok, ok, ok... my last comment here.
Most traddies who diss sportos today are weak.
Those traddies who are strong probably got that way by climbing lots of sport and bouldering. I'm talking Honnold, Trotter, Caldwell, the Hubers, blablabla.
The only traddies who have valid criticisms of sport are those who are climbing at world class standards, but only ground-up, onsight. And there hasn't been anyone like that since Henry Barber or John Bachar.
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blueeyedclimber
Jun 23, 2010, 11:43 PM
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I only dis one sport climber (psst...it's jake.......he likes it).
Seriously, though, most strong traddies owe their strength to either sport, bouldering or gym climbing. I think some traddies just have trouble wrapping their mind around the fact that some climbers have no aspirations to climb trad (I know, I don't understand it either). I mean, in any classic climbs collection, you won't find many sport routes. BUT.....sport climbing is fun once in a while.
Josh
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angry
Jun 24, 2010, 1:51 AM
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I'm somewhat of the outlier I believe, in that my very first 5.12, including gym, was trad and an onsight. My first 13 was also trad.
Funny thing though, if I had spent more of my time sport climbing, especially overhanging jugs and pockets, I would have gotten to those levels many years sooner.
I sport climb quite a bit now, and I've got no question in my mind that I'm a better trad climber than I've ever been.
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jakedatc
Jun 24, 2010, 2:47 AM
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shhh they don't want to get better.. they prefer to dominate mediocrity.
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caughtinside
Jun 24, 2010, 2:51 AM
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I really enjoy sport climbing. The only real downside is that when you go to a sport climbing area, it's full of fucking sport climbers.
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rangerrob
Jun 24, 2010, 11:52 AM
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Jake that might be the best thing you have said here so far. I agree, clipping bolts for a few days definitely helps my lead head, helps my strength, helps my climbing overall. You won't get an argument from me there. The problem is, to me anyway, that I don't see myself as a 5.X climber until I can safely lead 5.x on gear. The bolts just don't count for me for anything but helping me get to the next level in my real climbing. I actually don't have anything against sport climbing per se, I just don't understand how people can be satisfied just doing that, but oh well, I don't need to understand it I suppose.
Case in point, last time at the New we spent a couple of days clipping bolts, then I saw a really trad line and wanted to do it. It turned out to be Mellifluous 5.11a and I was psyched just to be on it. (If it were at the Gunks it would be 10b by the way!) Pulling those 5.11 moves above bolts the couple of days before gave me the sack I needed to do the same move above a brass wire. But make no mistake, doing that route was way more satisfying than the bolted 11d's and 12a's I was trying.
Jake, you really should go climb Vertigo before you poop on Cannon. If you can honestly say you didn't like it, well then I'll leave ya alone.
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kyote321
Jun 24, 2010, 12:53 PM
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...because trad climbing is neither.
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jt512
Jun 24, 2010, 1:23 PM
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rangerrob wrote: I actually don't have anything against sport climbing per se, I just don't understand how people can be satisfied just doing that...
I actually don't have anything against weak trad climbers. I just don't understand how people can be satisfied just doing that...
In reply to: Case in point, last time at the New we spent a couple of days clipping bolts, then I saw a really trad line and wanted to do it. It turned out to be Mellifluous 5.11a and I was psyched just to be on it. (If it were at the Gunks it would be 10b by the way!) ... But make no mistake, doing that route was way more satisfying than the bolted 11d's and 12a's I was trying.
Perhaps you'd have been more satisfied if you were actually able to send something.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 24, 2010, 1:23 PM)
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jakedatc
Jun 24, 2010, 1:38 PM
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rangerrob wrote: The bolts just don't count for me for anything but helping me get to the next level in my real climbing. I actually don't have anything against sport climbing per se, I just don't understand how people can be satisfied just doing that, but oh well, I don't need to understand it I suppose.
I'll be honest, i'm in a way a numbers person. I played soccer and ran track in HS and into college. I wanted to be faster and better each time i went out. Now i ride a road bike.. i want to be faster and go further every year. I'm extremely competitive with myself and jokingly with my friends. There are also routes i want to do and i need to get stronger and work on them to have a chance. Sport climbing and bouldering is much more conducive to this kind of mindset than trad climbing. Being scared and pulling risky moves has zero appeal to me but climbing hard moves does.
I have been going to the gunks more recently. But i am the opposite in thinking. I do not get the same rush as when i pulled the crux of Orangahang pumped out of my gord, clipped the bolt, grabbed the big jug after it.. and stood there at the rest with my HR at like 180 and hands shaking.
Don't hold your breath on cannon.. i am more likely to drive 12hrs to the red than drive the extra 1hr or whatever past rumney to go there.
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angry
Jun 24, 2010, 1:49 PM
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jt512 wrote: rangerrob wrote: I actually don't have anything against sport climbing per se, I just don't understand how people can be satisfied just doing that... I actually don't have anything against weak trad climbers. I just don't understand how people can be satisfied just doing that... In reply to: Case in point, last time at the New we spent a couple of days clipping bolts, then I saw a really trad line and wanted to do it. It turned out to be Mellifluous 5.11a and I was psyched just to be on it. (If it were at the Gunks it would be 10b by the way!) ... But make no mistake, doing that route was way more satisfying than the bolted 11d's and 12a's I was trying. Perhaps you'd have been more satisfied if you were actually able to send something. Jay
I know grades shouldn't matter, but they do. The experience of a 5.8 climber is different than the experience of a 5.14 climber.
I think it wasn't until I was regularly leading mid 12 that I realized there really wasn't much difference between trad and sport. The exception would be UK nutjob routes, but from my experience, it's not any different at the higher levels.
You work the moves, figure out how to make the clips/place the gear and go. You decide which clips to skip/placements to skip, and you move.
If a trad climber actually says that sport is easier, well, that's because he's a bad trad climber.
I find CI's comment awesome because the "scene" here is basically a bunch of beached (literally) trad climbers trying to climb something. The only thing available is sport. Bolted and FA's by traddies. So the scene consists of either trad climbers or young padwans. I seriously love having a climbing community of 10.
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the_climber
Jun 24, 2010, 5:25 PM
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angry wrote: I know grades shouldn't matter, but they do. The experience of a 5.8 climber is different than the experience of a 5.14 climber. I think it wasn't until I was regularly leading mid 12 that I realized there really wasn't much difference between trad and sport. The exception would be UK nutjob routes, but from my experience, it's not any different at the higher levels. You work the moves, figure out how to make the clips/place the gear and go. You decide which clips to skip/placements to skip, and you move. If a trad climber actually says that sport is easier, well, that's because he's a bad trad climber. I find CI's comment awesome because the "scene" here is basically a bunch of beached (literally) trad climbers trying to climb something. The only thing available is sport. Bolted and FA's by traddies. So the scene consists of either trad climbers or young padwans. I seriously love having a climbing community of 10.
I think grades matter to a point provided one is being honest with themselves about the grade. I based grades on what I can typically climb on any give day, in any condition on any rock... not based on my best lead, or based on what I can climb when everything lines up right. For me this typically means whatever I can onsite on Canadian Rockies Limestone on new ground (wish they were made of granite). I can and have climbed harder, but I find my sport grades and trad grades merged at the same grade years ago and in recent years I'm actually climbing harder on trad (likely a style thing not so much a sport vs trad thing... and the fact that I only spot climb a couple times a year now). The issue with grades comes when people start thinking they are a 5.xx climber when they really are a 5.y- climber. Grades are one aspect to the Experience scale, but technical proficiency and a true measure of time spent climbing are factors as well (among other factors). For example, a climber who started climbing 10 years ago doesn't necessarily have 10 years of experience climbing.
As a staunch Trad climber my personal distaste for sport has nothing to do with the actual climbing, more the scene... too many years competing and a shift in the community hanging out at the sport crags locally... Same reasons I don't bother going to the gym anymore.
Angry, sounds like a good scene on the beach. Small communities are awesome.
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rangerrob
Jun 24, 2010, 6:30 PM
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Hey Jake if chasing numbers is what works for you then go for it. Like I said different strokes for different folks. pullin ghard moves does nothing for me if there is no consequence. you can train anyone to pull hard moves. However, you might like to know that there is, in fact, a bolt on Vertigo. Does that change it for you?
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rangerrob
Jun 24, 2010, 6:37 PM
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Oh I'm sorry Jay..I don't live up to your expectations. I'll get better I promise! here, let me train for....I don't know....a week maybe. Then I'll be able to climb as hard as you on bolts. That's if I gave a crap that is.
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 24, 2010, 6:47 PM
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jake. i started out on this thread saying that sport is great stuff and I sincerly mean that. People who only boulder and sport climb however are cheating themselfs out of a whole crapload of realy cool climbs. jake as strong as you are if you could borrow a rack you would be styling on VMC direct direct and Duet direct is one of the most amazeing clean corners anywheres. Its pretty darn cool stuff.
I have not dissed sport climbers at all but jake is just full of scorn for trad climbers which is a bit silly and childish.
I will say that if you exclusivly climb sport you are like the ski racer who gets pissed off on powder days because you have to slip all that snow off the course so you can run gates while the rest of us are out sking the trees haveing a blast!
You could be a real bad assed climber and have lots of fun if you were not so damn narrow minded. Heck i have climbing partners and friends who crank 12s at Rumny, do big climbs on cannon and blast up 5+ ice at the lake in the winter. Its all good unless you are an uptight sporter who is doomed to thrash arround on little rocks screaming FUCK! at the top of his lungs every time he blows the redpoint
An yes bigger is better and if you have never been on a desert tower in the spring when all the flowers and cactuses are blooming you are missing some real special stuff.
(This post was edited by tradmanclimbs on Jun 24, 2010, 6:52 PM)
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jakedatc
Jun 24, 2010, 7:27 PM
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I have a rack.. and use it on occasion. I prefer the roofs and horizontals of the gunks over vertical cracks. Personal preference. I also prefer climbing hard moves over "scenery" if i want scenery i'll go for a hike. I would much rather aim my goals at like Erect Direction, The Sting, modern Times, than go try to do the vertical cracked granite.
you say your preference is tall easier stuff.. yet say people are cheating themselves for not wanting to do that. Perhaps you are cheating yourself for not pushing yourself physically on bolts. Do you think that Jay Conway could have put up his .13+ on Mordor without having done .13-14 at Rumney.. doubtful.
So again.. saying that you respect someones preference and then saying they are missing out because they don't believe in your preference is stupid.
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jt512
Jun 24, 2010, 7:38 PM
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rangerrob wrote: Oh I'm sorry Jay..I don't live up to your expectations. I'll get better I promise! here, let me train for....I don't know....a week maybe. Then I'll be able to climb as hard as you on bolts.
That's your fantasy.
Here's your reality":
rangerrob wrote: I start to fall on lead at around 5.10b. I start to fall on toprope and seconding at around 5.10c.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 24, 2010, 11:39 PM)
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jt512
Jun 24, 2010, 7:41 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: jake. i started out on this thread saying that sport is great stuff and I sincerly mean that. People who only boulder and sport climb however are cheating themselfs out of a whole crapload of realy cool climbs.
"Cool" is in the eye of the beholder. Your "cool" climbs would likely bore me.
Jay
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zeke_sf
Jun 24, 2010, 7:46 PM
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jakedatc wrote: ...I also prefer climbing hard moves over "scenery" if i want scenery i'll go for a hike...
Yeah, you're right, there's no hard moves in trad.
jakedatc wrote: So again.. saying that you respect someones preference and then saying they are missing out because they don't believe in your preference is stupid.
Dissing something you don't fully understand also looks stupid. And, yes, you are missing out. I miss out on sick ice formations, alpine environments, and the big walls because I don't have the skill set. Clearly, these deficits don't matter that much to either of us since we don't go out and do something about it, but I'm not going to turn around and say how stupid, scenic, and easy aid climbing is just because I've french freed a few moves and now think I know what I'm talking about.
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redlude97
Jun 24, 2010, 7:53 PM
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zeke_sf wrote: jakedatc wrote: ...I also prefer climbing hard moves over "scenery" if i want scenery i'll go for a hike... Yeah, you're right, there's no hard moves in trad. jakedatc wrote: So again.. saying that you respect someones preference and then saying they are missing out because they don't believe in your preference is stupid. Dissing something you don't fully understand also looks stupid. And, yes, you are missing out. I miss out on sick ice formations, alpine environments, and the big walls because I don't have the skill set. Clearly, these deficits don't matter that much to either of us since we don't go out and do something about it, but I'm not going to turn around and say how stupid, scenic, and easy aid climbing is just because I've french freed a few moves and now think I know what I'm talking about.
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zeke_sf
Jun 24, 2010, 8:00 PM
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redlude97 wrote: zeke_sf wrote: jakedatc wrote: ...I also prefer climbing hard moves over "scenery" if i want scenery i'll go for a hike... Yeah, you're right, there's no hard moves in trad. jakedatc wrote: So again.. saying that you respect someones preference and then saying they are missing out because they don't believe in your preference is stupid. Dissing something you don't fully understand also looks stupid. And, yes, you are missing out. I miss out on sick ice formations, alpine environments, and the big walls because I don't have the skill set. Clearly, these deficits don't matter that much to either of us since we don't go out and do something about it, but I'm not going to turn around and say how stupid, scenic, and easy aid climbing is just because I've french freed a few moves and now think I know what I'm talking about. Can you quote where he said that?
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zeke_sf
Jun 24, 2010, 8:01 PM
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zeke_sf wrote: redlude97 wrote: zeke_sf wrote: jakedatc wrote: ...I also prefer climbing hard moves over "scenery" if i want scenery i'll go for a hike... Yeah, you're right, there's no hard moves in trad. jakedatc wrote: So again.. saying that you respect someones preference and then saying they are missing out because they don't believe in your preference is stupid. Dissing something you don't fully understand also looks stupid. And, yes, you are missing out. I miss out on sick ice formations, alpine environments, and the big walls because I don't have the skill set. Clearly, these deficits don't matter that much to either of us since we don't go out and do something about it, but I'm not going to turn around and say how stupid, scenic, and easy aid climbing is just because I've french freed a few moves and now think I know what I'm talking about. Can you quote where he said that? Did I say he said exactly that? Hypothetical, dude. I'm comparing his derisive tone (e.g. typifying gear wanking as hiking staircases and solely scenic) to an imagined scenario where I damn aid climbing based on my similarly limited experience with it. Please try to keep up.
But thanks for the PTFTW!!!
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the_climber
Jun 24, 2010, 8:04 PM
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zeke_sf wrote: But thanks for the PTFTW!!!
You planned on poaching that anyways.
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wmfork
Jun 24, 2010, 8:07 PM
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Jay dishing out some cold sh&t!!!
Strict sport climbers kind of annoys me often because I don't see eye to eye with them on what constitutes a good route that we can both work on. Sport climbers that don't climb nearly as hard on gear also annoys me because they don't usually want to work with me on that beautiful hard trad line (or only wants to TR it). Weak climbers on gear annoys me the most, because they are often the most self-righteous kind and possesses neither the ability nor the balls to get out of their comfort zone.
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jakedatc
Jun 24, 2010, 8:12 PM
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zeke_sf wrote: redlude97 wrote: zeke_sf wrote: jakedatc wrote: ...I also prefer climbing hard moves over "scenery" if i want scenery i'll go for a hike... Yeah, you're right, there's no hard moves in trad. jakedatc wrote: So again.. saying that you respect someones preference and then saying they are missing out because they don't believe in your preference is stupid. Dissing something you don't fully understand also looks stupid. And, yes, you are missing out. I miss out on sick ice formations, alpine environments, and the big walls because I don't have the skill set. Clearly, these deficits don't matter that much to either of us since we don't go out and do something about it, but I'm not going to turn around and say how stupid, scenic, and easy aid climbing is just because I've french freed a few moves and now think I know what I'm talking about. Can you quote where he said that? Did I say he said exactly that? Hypothetical, dude. I'm comparing his derisive tone (e.g. typifying gear wanking as hiking staircases and solely scenic) to an imagined scenario where I damn aid climbing based on my similarly limited experience with it. Please try to keep up.
Uhmm.. He was talking about doing desert towers for the scenery and WG is a 5.7.. Vertigo is a 5.8... I'm not driving further and then hiking through talus for that. no thanks
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ladyscarlett
Jun 24, 2010, 8:49 PM
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Hahaha!
I 'diss' all the sport climbers I've seen mainly because each of them had signifigantly smaller racks than even my very own puny young rack.
And because they all laughed when I had to use my nut tool...
It IS funny to see my friends leading 11c in the gym, 10d outdoor sport, and stand there awed when I tell them about a heady 5.6 traverse on lead (trad - of course! hee hee) 2 pitches up. And they ARE a little impressed with even my little n00b rack...
bah, part of me is a little glad that I climb at a low enough grade that I don't have to worry about trad/sport community dynamics.
But it's fun to watch all of you go at it! Can you take off your shirts next time please?
cheers
ls
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 24, 2010, 8:56 PM
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Desert towers are usualy pretty effin hard. Easiest one I have ever been on was 5.9 but that ain't rumny 5.9! vertigo is 5.9 as well Vmc direct direct is 5.11 Duet direct is 10+ so that is probobly 11b rumny style way the fck off the deck. Those are some wicked cool fairly big climbs where endurance starts to play a factor. May be a grade or so easier that what you are used to doing but its fun stuff. Last unicorn over on the south buttress is wicked cool but if it's too eay for you there is pleanty of harder stuff there.
I respect the hell out of sport climbers who can cross over and climb the pants off anything regardless of style. I have not much respect for elite spurt climbers no matter how strong they are if they think they are too good to bother climbing anything other than their latest proj at the same pebble they always climb on. On the same note I have no respect for 5.8 trad climbers who diss sportclimbing .
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jt512
Jun 24, 2010, 9:00 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Desert towers are usualy pretty effin hard. Easiest one I have ever been on was 5.9 but that ain't rumny 5.9! vertigo is 5.9 as well Vmc direct direct is 5.11 Duet direct is 10+ so that is probobly 11b rumny style way the fck off the deck. Those are some wicked cool fairly big climbs where endurance starts to play a factor. May be a grade or so easier that what you are used to doing but its fun stuff. Last unicorn over on the south buttress is wicked cool but if it's too eay for you there is pleanty of harder stuff there. I respect the hell out of sport climbers who can cross over and climb the pants off anything regardless of style. I have not much respect for elite spurt climbers no matter how strong they are if they think they are too good to bother climbing anything other than their latest proj at the same pebble they always climb on. On the same note I have no respect for 5.8 trad climbers who diss sportclimbing .
Well, you get my vote for the most judgmental user on the site.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jun 24, 2010, 9:52 PM)
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 24, 2010, 9:38 PM
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Jay, coming from you that is really something Seriously I have nothing against anyone as long as whatever their gig is it does not hurt anyone else.
When we talk climbing though there are different levels of respect and you can not deny that.
fat lazy trad climbers who diss sport climbing as being neither get no respect.
Prima donna sport climbers/boulders who send huge numbers on little rocks get some respect but in a side freakshow kind of way.
Climbers who are Bad assed sport And trad climbers get all the respect. Size does matter
Bad assed Ice and alpine climbers who still send 5.13 sport also get all the respect
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 24, 2010, 10:00 PM
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Sure am glad I am not too good to be bothered with climbing this 2,000 ft wall
(This post was edited by tradmanclimbs on Jun 24, 2010, 10:45 PM)
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zeke_sf
Jun 24, 2010, 10:02 PM
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jakedatc wrote: zeke_sf wrote: redlude97 wrote: zeke_sf wrote: jakedatc wrote: ...I also prefer climbing hard moves over "scenery" if i want scenery i'll go for a hike... Yeah, you're right, there's no hard moves in trad. jakedatc wrote: So again.. saying that you respect someones preference and then saying they are missing out because they don't believe in your preference is stupid. Dissing something you don't fully understand also looks stupid. And, yes, you are missing out. I miss out on sick ice formations, alpine environments, and the big walls because I don't have the skill set. Clearly, these deficits don't matter that much to either of us since we don't go out and do something about it, but I'm not going to turn around and say how stupid, scenic, and easy aid climbing is just because I've french freed a few moves and now think I know what I'm talking about. Can you quote where he said that? Did I say he said exactly that? Hypothetical, dude. I'm comparing his derisive tone (e.g. typifying gear wanking as hiking staircases and solely scenic) to an imagined scenario where I damn aid climbing based on my similarly limited experience with it. Please try to keep up. Uhmm.. He was talking about doing desert towers for the scenery and WG is a 5.7.. Vertigo is a 5.8... I'm not driving further and then hiking through talus for that. no thanks
Ummm... I was talking to you and don't care what he said. Great response though.
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 24, 2010, 10:18 PM
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Duet Direct, Cannon Cliff. 10+ 300ft off the deck... The leader Alex loved Rumny BTW
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 24, 2010, 10:25 PM
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This guy cranks 12s @Rumny but he ain't afraid to get his tootsies cold in the winter
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 24, 2010, 10:42 PM
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This is probobly one of the easier desert towers. Only 5.9 but it drops off 450ft on either side when you launch out the plank to the corkscrew
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rangerrob
Jun 24, 2010, 11:54 PM
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I'm just realizing that Jay is a douche. Silly me for even paying attention. You know, there is one solid benefit to sport climbing. There's a lot more room in the pack for a six pack.
Take your rack of draws and try to clip your way up the west ridge of Makalu, or the Cassin Ridge on Denali, or the Exocet chimney on Standhardt, or the Goretta Pillar on Fitzroy, or any other badass alpine route. Let's see how far your sport skills get you. But hey, if being able to climb 70' of bolted 5.12 is your only goal.......Rumney is the place to be!! As long as you think it's cool. It's kinda like the little kids who think they're cool when they're playing tee ball. It's just very cute.
RR
Oh hey Jay, when you can clip your way up your 5.12 sport route with gloves, crampons, ice tools, and a 20 pound pack on, I'll be impressed.
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jt512
Jun 24, 2010, 11:59 PM
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rangerrob wrote: Oh hey Jay, when you can clip your way up your 5.12 sport route with gloves, crampons, ice tools, and a 20 pound pack on, I'll be impressed.
And when you stop sight-seeing, and learn to pull a hard move, I'll be impressed. Falling on 10b, that's just so adorable!
Oh, and by the way, what makes you think I've haven't climbed trad, maybe even more than you.
Jay
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olderic
Jun 25, 2010, 2:12 AM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Duet Direct, Cannon Cliff. 10+ 300ft off the deck... The leader Alex loved Rumny BTW [IMG]http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn305/tradman/Duetdirect.jpg[/IMG]
Whoa - I first climbed that one when the perched flake was still in the pod (~1978) great climb. As is the DD, original VMC ( had to French Free the Cow's mouth - grrr,, Lab Wall etc. Of course now that I am a Rumney regular maybe I will have built up the guns to go after it.. Not.
To answer the original question - the title of the thread - the dissing (although as has been shown repeatedly in this thread its not so much dissing as bewilderment) is because the spurtsters can't distinguish between training and the real thing - they think training is the real thing.
Sorry Jake - I do respect you and your opinions. Not sorry and no respect to jay though....
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wmfork
Jun 25, 2010, 4:44 AM
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olderic wrote: the dissing... is because the spurtsters can't distinguish between training and the real thing - they think training is the real thing. |
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 25, 2010, 10:25 AM
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Climbers who identify with any one faction of climbing to the point that they exclude/look down on all other aspects of climbing are the ones who don't get it..
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kyote321
Jun 25, 2010, 12:59 PM
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In reply to: If a trad climber actually says that sport is easier, well, that's because he's a bad trad climber. .
nailed it.
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jt512
Jun 25, 2010, 3:12 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Climbers who identify with any one faction of climbing to the point that they exclude/look down on all other aspects of climbing are the ones who don't get it..
At least you admit it.
Jay
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camhead
Jun 25, 2010, 3:45 PM
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I think that all climbers are really missing out on the experience you get by hiking on a trail. You might think you're all baddass/hardcore with your "ropes" and your "routes," but real men are not constrained by seeking out "cliffs."
If you want to climb rocks, that's fine, but you'll always be missing out on something deeper. I have no respect for a 5.15b r/x trad climber who doesn't like hiking.
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angry
Jun 25, 2010, 5:30 PM
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Now that this thread has turned into a place to list people you have no respect for, I'll add mine in no particular order.
Sara palin, teletubbies, ralph machio, kid rock, and Paris Hilton.
I pretty much like most climbers and even have a certain level of respect to the abnormally focused or douchbaggy ones too.
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welle
Jun 25, 2010, 9:21 PM
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rangerrob wrote: You know, there is one solid benefit to sport climbing. There's a lot more room in the pack for a six pack.
Too late, RR, the crowds have arrived at Cannon: http://www.neclimbs.com/smf_bbs/index.php?topic=5908.0
and sorry about the face climbing remark, I just thought with your distaste for them, you'd be have a better tally of them in the Gunks.
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jomagam
Jun 25, 2010, 10:41 PM
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In reply to: Now that this thread has turned into a place to list people you have no respect for, I'll add mine in no particular order.
Respekt
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davidnn5
Jun 26, 2010, 4:33 AM
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jt512 wrote: rangerrob wrote: Oh I'm sorry Jay..I don't live up to your expectations. I'll get better I promise! here, let me train for....I don't know....a week maybe. Then I'll be able to climb as hard as you on bolts. That's your fantasy. Here's your reality": rangerrob wrote: I start to fall on lead at around 5.10b. I start to fall on toprope and seconding at around 5.10c. Jay
Since we're arsing on about numbers, how tall are you Jay?
Because frankly, I had a lightbulb moment when on another thread you mentioned you weigh 135 lbs. No man I know, climber or otherwise, weighs that little unless they're 5'6. Ergo, it occurs to me that you have small man syndrome. Otherwise, I simply can't account for your obsession with e-peen battling.
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zeke_sf
Jun 26, 2010, 5:55 AM
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davidnn5 wrote: jt512 wrote: rangerrob wrote: Oh I'm sorry Jay..I don't live up to your expectations. I'll get better I promise! here, let me train for....I don't know....a week maybe. Then I'll be able to climb as hard as you on bolts. That's your fantasy. Here's your reality": rangerrob wrote: I start to fall on lead at around 5.10b. I start to fall on toprope and seconding at around 5.10c. Jay Since we're arsing on about numbers, how tall are you Jay? Because frankly, I had a lightbulb moment when on another thread you mentioned you weigh 135 lbs. No man I know, climber or otherwise, weighs that little unless they're 5'6. Ergo, it occurs to me that you have small man syndrome. Otherwise, I simply can't account for your obsession with e-peen battling.
JT512.D is a lady, man!!!
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petsfed
Jun 26, 2010, 4:19 PM
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davidnn5 wrote: Because frankly, I had a lightbulb moment when on another thread you mentioned you weigh 135 lbs. No man I know, climber or otherwise, weighs that little unless they're 5'6. Ergo, it occurs to me that you have small man syndrome. Otherwise, I simply can't account for your obsession with e-peen battling.
You must not know that many 5.12+ and harder climbers then. Of the ones I know, average weight is between 120 and 150, height ranges from 5'6" to 6'2". If you climb long enough, and structure your diet well enough (since Jay is a nutritionist, I kind of expect that), you will get to a fairly low weight, if only because that means you have less to haul up the rock.
So try again.
/6'1"
//170lbs
///rarely onsights harder than 10c sport
(This post was edited by petsfed on Jun 26, 2010, 4:20 PM)
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camhead
Jun 26, 2010, 4:22 PM
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petsfed wrote: davidnn5 wrote: Because frankly, I had a lightbulb moment when on another thread you mentioned you weigh 135 lbs. No man I know, climber or otherwise, weighs that little unless they're 5'6. Ergo, it occurs to me that you have small man syndrome. Otherwise, I simply can't account for your obsession with e-peen battling. You must not know that many 5.12+ and harder climbers then. Of the ones I know, average weight is between 120 and 150, height ranges from 5'6" to 6'2". If you climb long enough, and structure your diet well enough (since Jay is a nutritionist, I kind of expect that), you will get to a fairly low weight, if only because that means you have less to haul up the rock. So try again. /6'1" //170lbs ///rarely onsights harder than 10c sport
That's true, but I believe that JayTee is short.
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davidnn5
Jun 26, 2010, 9:55 PM
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petsfed wrote: You must not know that many 5.12+ and harder climbers then. Of the ones I know, average weight is between 120 and 150, height ranges from 5'6" to 6'2". If you climb long enough, and structure your diet well enough (since Jay is a nutritionist, I kind of expect that), you will get to a fairly low weight, if only because that means you have less to haul up the rock. So try again. /6'1" //170lbs ///rarely onsights harder than 10c sport
As an aside while I wait for Jay to respond, I plugged weights between 120-150 (your contended range) to see how they would stack up BMI-wise against a 5'6 climber versus a 6'2 climber.
Unsurprisingly, all weights between 120-150 would be considered in the healthy weight range for a 5'6 person according to many international Departments of Health (18.5-24.9 BMI). 120 lbs is getting fairly skinny for someone of that height.
Conversely, anyone at 6'2 who weighed anything under 140 lbs or so would be considered unhealthy; at 120, emaciated and probably ready to die. Even at 150, a BMI of 19.3 indicates a very, very skinny man with very little muscle mass (muscle heavier than fat etc). In fact arguably someone that skinny may be more likely to have long term tendon damage from climbing due to lack of muscle mass.
So, either I don't know anyone who climbs 5.12+/V4 (they'll be surprised!) or you hang around with a bunch of anorexic girly-men. Ponder which it could be? I feel horrible for all those guys who weigh 151 lbs or more who don't get to make the 5.12 cut.
Perhaps your experience of life does not equal a scientific analysis. Whereas given enough short guys, I'm sure I could prove a strong correlation with short guy syndrome (SGS). 
Edit: I'm glad no one caught my fox pahs; I can hardly criticise Jay if I'm going to do... well, anything wrong at all.
(This post was edited by davidnn5 on Jun 27, 2010, 6:37 AM)
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Shroom
Jun 27, 2010, 1:58 AM
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bennydh
Jun 27, 2010, 7:50 AM
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I am 5'7" and under 130lbs. I think Jay is just around the same size and build maybe taller?
Little man syndrome? Probably not.
Asshole? Sure whatever. I'm certainly not the nicest guy in this forum, apparently you aren't in the running for that award either.
Constantly wrong? As much as I'd like to say Jay is a total idiot and always wrong, that would be disingenuous. Regardless of whether you like him or not.
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davidnn5
Jun 27, 2010, 8:04 AM
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How does one convert 'e-peen battling' to 'constantly wrong'? Or did I post something that I conveniently forgot in the haze of kilojoule-saturated beers? I do that a lot. Drink and enjoy myself, that is. *shock* I should write a 3-page article on drinking and climbing and post it to the world.
In any case, I think you got my point.
Go eat a sammich. Your BMI is around 20 but you would still be broken in half by a gale-force wind. In a healthy country you'd be given at least one free beer per night. Women may have pity-sex with you, but only because they want to feed you after you wake up. Men everywhere look at you and think "more wimmins for me".
/The (healthy) Brobdingnagian. Fee fi fo fum... Don't let me fall on you.
PS Jay has been attributed heights of over 5'7 to 5'3 so far... We're all dying to know the truth!
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bennydh
Jun 27, 2010, 8:32 AM
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My Response was to shroom...
I thought a BMI of 20 is healthy.
I've never had women or relationship problems. At least not any that I couldn't just ignore. 
The rest of my relationships I've kept healthy and brief, without too much collateral damage.
Although your mom keeps on fucking calling me. Usually when she is totally lit up. I didn't want to air that out on RC, but please tell her to stop calling!
Oh yeah, maybe lay off the sauce? Its apparently a genetic problem.
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rangerrob
Jun 28, 2010, 11:37 AM
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I wanna win the nicest man award! I wanna win! Any chance?
5'6 or 6'2, jay is still an internet tool
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jjones16
May 22, 2011, 7:24 AM
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The reason is very simple. Trad climbers have more balls. I hate to say it, and I'm sure I'll catch hell from die hard sportsters for saying so, but it is absolutely true, and for one very simple reason that most miss. Unless you're sport climbing on a route with ancient and corroded 1/4 bolts, then you don't have to worry about your "protection" holding your fall. Trad climbers do not have that luxury. We don't rappel from the top and lock off to perfectly place a cam/hex/nut/tricam and then clip into a biner in half a second on the way up. We climb from the ground up, sometimes blindly and not knowing if we've brought adequate protection. The sport climber does not bear this task- at all.
Even beginner sport climbers can quickly master clipping in if they are not complete clods (which inevitably some are) Trad... not so easy. You have a much more intimate experience with the rock, for not only are you trying to haul your ass up it using your hands, you're in a constant state of evaluation of the quality of rock, and the features in which you can PLACE gear that will hopefully save your life in the event of a fall.
I have respect for anyone that can climb hard grades. I have no problem with bolted faces that can't be protected otherwise. I have no problem with a lone bolt on say... an unprotectable traverse (e.g. Zoo View 5.7, Moore's Wall NC). However, if gear can be safely employed to send a route, bolting it is just a tragedy- not to mention a big fat fuck you to everyone that developed both disciplines into what they are today. Although I do enjoy the adventurous nature of trad, and I prefer that discipline the most, I still do not label myself a "trad climber". I still top rope project routes, and I sport lead quite often as well. I'm a climber, period. I do not wish to disrespect the discipline of sport climbing, because I enjoy it. But to say that trad climbing doesn't require more balls, and an entirely different and added skillset than sport climbing is horseshit.
This, my friend, is why some trad climbers cast disparaging remarks on sport climbers.
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ceebo
May 22, 2011, 12:07 PM
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jjones16 wrote: The reason is very simple. Trad climbers have more balls. I hate to say it, and I'm sure I'll catch hell from die hard sportsters for saying so, but it is absolutely true, and for one very simple reason that most miss. Unless you're sport climbing on a route with ancient and corroded 1/4 bolts, then you don't have to worry about your "protection" holding your fall. Trad climbers do not have that luxury. We don't rappel from the top and lock off to perfectly place a cam/hex/nut/tricam and then clip into a biner in half a second on the way up. We climb from the ground up, sometimes blindly and not knowing if we've brought adequate protection. The sport climber does not bear this task- at all. Even beginner sport climbers can quickly master clipping in if they are not complete clods (which inevitably some are) Trad... not so easy. You have a much more intimate experience with the rock, for not only are you trying to haul your ass up it using your hands, you're in a constant state of evaluation of the quality of rock, and the features in which you can PLACE gear that will hopefully save your life in the event of a fall. I have respect for anyone that can climb hard grades. I have no problem with bolted faces that can't be protected otherwise. I have no problem with a lone bolt on say... an unprotectable traverse (e.g. Zoo View 5.7, Moore's Wall NC). However, if gear can be safely employed to send a route, bolting it is just a tragedy- not to mention a big fat fuck you to everyone that developed both disciplines into what they are today. Although I do enjoy the adventurous nature of trad, and I prefer that discipline the most, I still do not label myself a "trad climber". I still top rope project routes, and I sport lead quite often as well. I'm a climber, period. I do not wish to disrespect the discipline of sport climbing, because I enjoy it. But to say that trad climbing doesn't require more balls, and an entirely different and added skillset than sport climbing is horseshit. This, my friend, is why some trad climbers cast disparaging remarks on sport climbers.
I have to bite on that. My personal experience aside (only recently done some trad) i have been serounded by trad climbers for years. 99% of them share the same common fear of not wanting to fall. All of those as a result hit mind games and do not climb harder than E2. Their are only a very few that i know of who push past that but not much further.
Mostly i put that down to the fact that all they do is trad. Trad is not the best place to get strong (that much i learnt from my own climbing under the style). IMO i have had the best possible start to trad, im not insanely strong, but enough to climb E5 at the very least. I KNOW physically i'm able for that.. Mentally defo not.. but half the battle is already won.
The only reason i would have ''balls'' to be looking up the line of E5's and more is because of sport climbing. If i had no mental game and no physical side.. i will also be doing nothing but E1's for years on end.. like they have.
And having ''balls'' is a personal attribute.. not a style of climbing. The trigger for peoples fear is not exclusive to trad.. people get scared bouldering. The show of ''balls'' is overcoming that fear and getting on with it.
I know the obvious argument is that trad can kill, bouldering can not (well it can but freak accidents). The point is, fear is fear.. once it gets you.. it cripples you in the same way.
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Bag11s
May 23, 2011, 12:54 AM
Post #187 of 225
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Jakedatc- somehow I missed this confab last spring. I’ve just looked at it since it came back around again. Although I love Rumney, and climbed a few 12s there in the nineties, and later made it a weird personal mission to do all of its 5.11s- (see profile) because they were admittedly easier, I recently have more time, my youngest daughter is now finishing up college and I have now embarked on a mission to get strong, finally. I have gotten back into working/sending a bunch of our local 5.12s in the last year, including some at Rumney, and have developed grand goals to climb much harder shit finally, after 22 years of raising a family while running my own woodworking business. 5.13 sport and v8 plastic bouldering are my climbing ambitions these days. I am closing my business after 30 years, and hope to have way more time to devote to climbing.
However, what I agree with Tradman is that you are missing out on something special if you don’t try the great climbing at Cannon- the routes are not all choss- and the VMC and Lab Wall are off- the- wall on the fun chart- and almost all on compact, perfect, granite. If you have done or been on Whip Tide at Rumney- with its intricate stemming through the middle section- you would be surprised how much great climbing of a similar nature, and in fact way more, is on the Lab Wall, besides other similarly wicked and entertaining cruxiness. Open your mind a bit- Tradman is right- Cannon does have amazing and cool shit, even for someone with your background and interests.
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jjones16
May 23, 2011, 1:01 AM
Post #188 of 225
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ceebo wrote: jjones16 wrote: The reason is very simple. Trad climbers have more balls. I hate to say it, and I'm sure I'll catch hell from die hard sportsters for saying so, but it is absolutely true, and for one very simple reason that most miss. Unless you're sport climbing on a route with ancient and corroded 1/4 bolts, then you don't have to worry about your "protection" holding your fall. Trad climbers do not have that luxury. We don't rappel from the top and lock off to perfectly place a cam/hex/nut/tricam and then clip into a biner in half a second on the way up. We climb from the ground up, sometimes blindly and not knowing if we've brought adequate protection. The sport climber does not bear this task- at all. Even beginner sport climbers can quickly master clipping in if they are not complete clods (which inevitably some are) Trad... not so easy. You have a much more intimate experience with the rock, for not only are you trying to haul your ass up it using your hands, you're in a constant state of evaluation of the quality of rock, and the features in which you can PLACE gear that will hopefully save your life in the event of a fall. I have respect for anyone that can climb hard grades. I have no problem with bolted faces that can't be protected otherwise. I have no problem with a lone bolt on say... an unprotectable traverse (e.g. Zoo View 5.7, Moore's Wall NC). However, if gear can be safely employed to send a route, bolting it is just a tragedy- not to mention a big fat fuck you to everyone that developed both disciplines into what they are today. Although I do enjoy the adventurous nature of trad, and I prefer that discipline the most, I still do not label myself a "trad climber". I still top rope project routes, and I sport lead quite often as well. I'm a climber, period. I do not wish to disrespect the discipline of sport climbing, because I enjoy it. But to say that trad climbing doesn't require more balls, and an entirely different and added skillset than sport climbing is horseshit. This, my friend, is why some trad climbers cast disparaging remarks on sport climbers. I have to bite on that. My personal experience aside (only recently done some trad) i have been serounded by trad climbers for years. 99% of them share the same common fear of not wanting to fall. All of those as a result hit mind games and do not climb harder than E2. Their are only a very few that i know of who push past that but not much further. Mostly i put that down to the fact that all they do is trad. Trad is not the best place to get strong (that much i learnt from my own climbing under the style). IMO i have had the best possible start to trad, im not insanely strong, but enough to climb E5 at the very least. I KNOW physically i'm able for that.. Mentally defo not.. but half the battle is already won. The only reason i would have ''balls'' to be looking up the line of E5's and more is because of sport climbing. If i had no mental game and no physical side.. i will also be doing nothing but E1's for years on end.. like they have. And having ''balls'' is a personal attribute.. not a style of climbing. The trigger for peoples fear is not exclusive to trad.. people get scared bouldering. The show of ''balls'' is overcoming that fear and getting on with it. I know the obvious argument is that trad can kill, bouldering can not (well it can but freak accidents). The point is, fear is fear.. once it gets you.. it cripples you in the same way.
And there you go. No one is arguing that the vast majority of the climbing population can do higher grades in sport than in trad. Ever consider the reason for this strange anomaly? Nevermind. Also, no one posed the argument that one can hone strength and technique doing sport routes perhaps moreso than doing trad routes. Have you considered the possible reasons for this? Again, nevermind. If you cannot draw the correlation between these two trends, then I don't know what else I could possibly say. In addition, I didn't speak from a platform that even remotely implied that balls were NOT a personal attribute, and not a climbing style, so I'm still scratching my head on where the origin for your rebuttal came from. Oh, and as far as the "fear is fear" thing, bouldering highballs which I've only had limited experience with DID make me feel like I had a carrot in my ass. Taking a 20 footer on a jagged route and barely being caught by a .5 camalot before I got violated by a sharp flake... well that one made me shit a meat axe. Not exactly the same thing. Again, I'd like to reiterate that I do not profess undying loyalty to any discipline, as I enjoy them all. Nor do I look down on any one more than another. You're being defensive and offering irrelevant rebuttals that don't pertain to the original commentary at all. The question was "why are sport climbers dissed so much by trad? " and I was merely offering what I thought was the answer. I'm sorry that I offended you to the point of grasping at straws. I apologize.
(This post was edited by jjones16 on May 23, 2011, 1:03 AM)
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kachoong
May 23, 2011, 1:02 AM
Post #189 of 225
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ceebo wrote: jjones16 wrote: The reason is very simple. Trad climbers have more balls. I hate to say it, and I'm sure I'll catch hell from die hard sportsters for saying so, but it is absolutely true, and for one very simple reason that most miss. Unless you're sport climbing on a route with ancient and corroded 1/4 bolts, then you don't have to worry about your "protection" holding your fall. Trad climbers do not have that luxury. We don't rappel from the top and lock off to perfectly place a cam/hex/nut/tricam and then clip into a biner in half a second on the way up. We climb from the ground up, sometimes blindly and not knowing if we've brought adequate protection. The sport climber does not bear this task- at all. Even beginner sport climbers can quickly master clipping in if they are not complete clods (which inevitably some are) Trad... not so easy. You have a much more intimate experience with the rock, for not only are you trying to haul your ass up it using your hands, you're in a constant state of evaluation of the quality of rock, and the features in which you can PLACE gear that will hopefully save your life in the event of a fall. I have respect for anyone that can climb hard grades. I have no problem with bolted faces that can't be protected otherwise. I have no problem with a lone bolt on say... an unprotectable traverse (e.g. Zoo View 5.7, Moore's Wall NC). However, if gear can be safely employed to send a route, bolting it is just a tragedy- not to mention a big fat fuck you to everyone that developed both disciplines into what they are today. Although I do enjoy the adventurous nature of trad, and I prefer that discipline the most, I still do not label myself a "trad climber". I still top rope project routes, and I sport lead quite often as well. I'm a climber, period. I do not wish to disrespect the discipline of sport climbing, because I enjoy it. But to say that trad climbing doesn't require more balls, and an entirely different and added skillset than sport climbing is horseshit. This, my friend, is why some trad climbers cast disparaging remarks on sport climbers. I have to bite on that. My personal experience aside (only recently done some trad) i have been serounded by trad climbers for years. 99% of them share the same common fear of not wanting to fall. All of those as a result hit mind games and do not climb harder than E2. Their are only a very few that i know of who push past that but not much further. Mostly i put that down to the fact that all they do is trad. Trad is not the best place to get strong (that much i learnt from my own climbing under the style). IMO i have had the best possible start to trad, im not insanely strong, but enough to climb E5 at the very least. I KNOW physically i'm able for that.. Mentally defo not.. but half the battle is already won. The only reason i would have ''balls'' to be looking up the line of E5's and more is because of sport climbing. If i had no mental game and no physical side.. i will also be doing nothing but E1's for years on end.. like they have. And having ''balls'' is a personal attribute.. not a style of climbing. The trigger for peoples fear is not exclusive to trad.. people get scared bouldering. The show of ''balls'' is overcoming that fear and getting on with it. I know the obvious argument is that trad can kill, bouldering can not (well it can but freak accidents). The point is, fear is fear.. once it gets you.. it cripples you in the same way.
I have seven balls at last count. The dog chewed one, but even deflated it's still ball-shaped.
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jjones16
May 23, 2011, 1:10 AM
Post #190 of 225
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kachoong wrote: ceebo wrote: jjones16 wrote: The reason is very simple. Trad climbers have more balls. I hate to say it, and I'm sure I'll catch hell from die hard sportsters for saying so, but it is absolutely true, and for one very simple reason that most miss. Unless you're sport climbing on a route with ancient and corroded 1/4 bolts, then you don't have to worry about your "protection" holding your fall. Trad climbers do not have that luxury. We don't rappel from the top and lock off to perfectly place a cam/hex/nut/tricam and then clip into a biner in half a second on the way up. We climb from the ground up, sometimes blindly and not knowing if we've brought adequate protection. The sport climber does not bear this task- at all. Even beginner sport climbers can quickly master clipping in if they are not complete clods (which inevitably some are) Trad... not so easy. You have a much more intimate experience with the rock, for not only are you trying to haul your ass up it using your hands, you're in a constant state of evaluation of the quality of rock, and the features in which you can PLACE gear that will hopefully save your life in the event of a fall. I have respect for anyone that can climb hard grades. I have no problem with bolted faces that can't be protected otherwise. I have no problem with a lone bolt on say... an unprotectable traverse (e.g. Zoo View 5.7, Moore's Wall NC). However, if gear can be safely employed to send a route, bolting it is just a tragedy- not to mention a big fat fuck you to everyone that developed both disciplines into what they are today. Although I do enjoy the adventurous nature of trad, and I prefer that discipline the most, I still do not label myself a "trad climber". I still top rope project routes, and I sport lead quite often as well. I'm a climber, period. I do not wish to disrespect the discipline of sport climbing, because I enjoy it. But to say that trad climbing doesn't require more balls, and an entirely different and added skillset than sport climbing is horseshit. This, my friend, is why some trad climbers cast disparaging remarks on sport climbers. I have to bite on that. My personal experience aside (only recently done some trad) i have been serounded by trad climbers for years. 99% of them share the same common fear of not wanting to fall. All of those as a result hit mind games and do not climb harder than E2. Their are only a very few that i know of who push past that but not much further. Mostly i put that down to the fact that all they do is trad. Trad is not the best place to get strong (that much i learnt from my own climbing under the style). IMO i have had the best possible start to trad, im not insanely strong, but enough to climb E5 at the very least. I KNOW physically i'm able for that.. Mentally defo not.. but half the battle is already won. The only reason i would have ''balls'' to be looking up the line of E5's and more is because of sport climbing. If i had no mental game and no physical side.. i will also be doing nothing but E1's for years on end.. like they have. And having ''balls'' is a personal attribute.. not a style of climbing. The trigger for peoples fear is not exclusive to trad.. people get scared bouldering. The show of ''balls'' is overcoming that fear and getting on with it. I know the obvious argument is that trad can kill, bouldering can not (well it can but freak accidents). The point is, fear is fear.. once it gets you.. it cripples you in the same way. I have seven balls at last count. The dog chewed one, but even deflated it's still ball-shaped.
Seven? Deflated? Why can't I have air in my balls? That's why I get pumped so easily; damned fleshy balls.
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ceebo
May 23, 2011, 1:24 AM
Post #191 of 225
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jjones16 wrote: ceebo wrote: jjones16 wrote: The reason is very simple. Trad climbers have more balls. I hate to say it, and I'm sure I'll catch hell from die hard sportsters for saying so, but it is absolutely true, and for one very simple reason that most miss. Unless you're sport climbing on a route with ancient and corroded 1/4 bolts, then you don't have to worry about your "protection" holding your fall. Trad climbers do not have that luxury. We don't rappel from the top and lock off to perfectly place a cam/hex/nut/tricam and then clip into a biner in half a second on the way up. We climb from the ground up, sometimes blindly and not knowing if we've brought adequate protection. The sport climber does not bear this task- at all. Even beginner sport climbers can quickly master clipping in if they are not complete clods (which inevitably some are) Trad... not so easy. You have a much more intimate experience with the rock, for not only are you trying to haul your ass up it using your hands, you're in a constant state of evaluation of the quality of rock, and the features in which you can PLACE gear that will hopefully save your life in the event of a fall. I have respect for anyone that can climb hard grades. I have no problem with bolted faces that can't be protected otherwise. I have no problem with a lone bolt on say... an unprotectable traverse (e.g. Zoo View 5.7, Moore's Wall NC). However, if gear can be safely employed to send a route, bolting it is just a tragedy- not to mention a big fat fuck you to everyone that developed both disciplines into what they are today. Although I do enjoy the adventurous nature of trad, and I prefer that discipline the most, I still do not label myself a "trad climber". I still top rope project routes, and I sport lead quite often as well. I'm a climber, period. I do not wish to disrespect the discipline of sport climbing, because I enjoy it. But to say that trad climbing doesn't require more balls, and an entirely different and added skillset than sport climbing is horseshit. This, my friend, is why some trad climbers cast disparaging remarks on sport climbers. I have to bite on that. My personal experience aside (only recently done some trad) i have been serounded by trad climbers for years. 99% of them share the same common fear of not wanting to fall. All of those as a result hit mind games and do not climb harder than E2. Their are only a very few that i know of who push past that but not much further. Mostly i put that down to the fact that all they do is trad. Trad is not the best place to get strong (that much i learnt from my own climbing under the style). IMO i have had the best possible start to trad, im not insanely strong, but enough to climb E5 at the very least. I KNOW physically i'm able for that.. Mentally defo not.. but half the battle is already won. The only reason i would have ''balls'' to be looking up the line of E5's and more is because of sport climbing. If i had no mental game and no physical side.. i will also be doing nothing but E1's for years on end.. like they have. And having ''balls'' is a personal attribute.. not a style of climbing. The trigger for peoples fear is not exclusive to trad.. people get scared bouldering. The show of ''balls'' is overcoming that fear and getting on with it. I know the obvious argument is that trad can kill, bouldering can not (well it can but freak accidents). The point is, fear is fear.. once it gets you.. it cripples you in the same way. And there you go. No one is arguing that the vast majority of the climbing population can do higher grades in sport than in trad. Ever consider the reason for this strange anomaly? Nevermind. Also, no one posed the argument that one can hone strength and technique doing sport routes perhaps moreso than doing trad routes. Have you considered the possible reasons for this? Again, nevermind. If you cannot draw the correlation between these two trends, then I don't know what else I could possibly say. In addition, I didn't speak from a platform that even remotely implied that balls were NOT a personal attribute, and not a climbing style, so I'm still scratching my head on where the origin for your rebuttal came from. Oh, and as far as the "fear is fear" thing, bouldering highballs which I've only had limited experience with DID make me feel like I had a carrot in my ass. Taking a 20 footer on a jagged route and barely being caught by a .5 camalot before I got violated by a sharp flake... well that one made me shit a meat axe. Not exactly the same thing. Again, I'd like to reiterate that I do not profess undying loyalty to any discipline, as I enjoy them all. Nor do I look down on any one more than another. You're being defensive and offering irrelevant rebuttals that don't pertain to the original commentary at all. The question was "why are sport climbers dissed so much by trad? " and I was merely offering what I thought was the answer. I'm sorry that I offended you to the point of grasping at straws. I apologize.
Your right, nobody was.
You stated that trad climbers (i assumed as a whole) have more balls than sport climbers. If you meant the elite trad climbers who try to on sight E6+ then ok sure.. my hat is off to those few nut jobs, but the avg joe who do it have no balls at all. They climb shit they perceive as having zero chance of taking a fall on.
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jjones16
May 23, 2011, 2:48 AM
Post #192 of 225
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ceebo wrote: jjones16 wrote: ceebo wrote: jjones16 wrote: The reason is very simple. Trad climbers have more balls. I hate to say it, and I'm sure I'll catch hell from die hard sportsters for saying so, but it is absolutely true, and for one very simple reason that most miss. Unless you're sport climbing on a route with ancient and corroded 1/4 bolts, then you don't have to worry about your "protection" holding your fall. Trad climbers do not have that luxury. We don't rappel from the top and lock off to perfectly place a cam/hex/nut/tricam and then clip into a biner in half a second on the way up. We climb from the ground up, sometimes blindly and not knowing if we've brought adequate protection. The sport climber does not bear this task- at all. Even beginner sport climbers can quickly master clipping in if they are not complete clods (which inevitably some are) Trad... not so easy. You have a much more intimate experience with the rock, for not only are you trying to haul your ass up it using your hands, you're in a constant state of evaluation of the quality of rock, and the features in which you can PLACE gear that will hopefully save your life in the event of a fall. I have respect for anyone that can climb hard grades. I have no problem with bolted faces that can't be protected otherwise. I have no problem with a lone bolt on say... an unprotectable traverse (e.g. Zoo View 5.7, Moore's Wall NC). However, if gear can be safely employed to send a route, bolting it is just a tragedy- not to mention a big fat fuck you to everyone that developed both disciplines into what they are today. Although I do enjoy the adventurous nature of trad, and I prefer that discipline the most, I still do not label myself a "trad climber". I still top rope project routes, and I sport lead quite often as well. I'm a climber, period. I do not wish to disrespect the discipline of sport climbing, because I enjoy it. But to say that trad climbing doesn't require more balls, and an entirely different and added skillset than sport climbing is horseshit. This, my friend, is why some trad climbers cast disparaging remarks on sport climbers. I have to bite on that. My personal experience aside (only recently done some trad) i have been serounded by trad climbers for years. 99% of them share the same common fear of not wanting to fall. All of those as a result hit mind games and do not climb harder than E2. Their are only a very few that i know of who push past that but not much further. Mostly i put that down to the fact that all they do is trad. Trad is not the best place to get strong (that much i learnt from my own climbing under the style). IMO i have had the best possible start to trad, im not insanely strong, but enough to climb E5 at the very least. I KNOW physically i'm able for that.. Mentally defo not.. but half the battle is already won. The only reason i would have ''balls'' to be looking up the line of E5's and more is because of sport climbing. If i had no mental game and no physical side.. i will also be doing nothing but E1's for years on end.. like they have. And having ''balls'' is a personal attribute.. not a style of climbing. The trigger for peoples fear is not exclusive to trad.. people get scared bouldering. The show of ''balls'' is overcoming that fear and getting on with it. I know the obvious argument is that trad can kill, bouldering can not (well it can but freak accidents). The point is, fear is fear.. once it gets you.. it cripples you in the same way. And there you go. No one is arguing that the vast majority of the climbing population can do higher grades in sport than in trad. Ever consider the reason for this strange anomaly? Nevermind. Also, no one posed the argument that one can hone strength and technique doing sport routes perhaps moreso than doing trad routes. Have you considered the possible reasons for this? Again, nevermind. If you cannot draw the correlation between these two trends, then I don't know what else I could possibly say. In addition, I didn't speak from a platform that even remotely implied that balls were NOT a personal attribute, and not a climbing style, so I'm still scratching my head on where the origin for your rebuttal came from. Oh, and as far as the "fear is fear" thing, bouldering highballs which I've only had limited experience with DID make me feel like I had a carrot in my ass. Taking a 20 footer on a jagged route and barely being caught by a .5 camalot before I got violated by a sharp flake... well that one made me shit a meat axe. Not exactly the same thing. Again, I'd like to reiterate that I do not profess undying loyalty to any discipline, as I enjoy them all. Nor do I look down on any one more than another. You're being defensive and offering irrelevant rebuttals that don't pertain to the original commentary at all. The question was "why are sport climbers dissed so much by trad? " and I was merely offering what I thought was the answer. I'm sorry that I offended you to the point of grasping at straws. I apologize. Your right, nobody was. You stated that trad climbers (i assumed as a whole) have more balls than sport climbers. If you meant the elite trad climbers who try to on sight E6+ then ok sure.. my hat is off to those few nut jobs, but the avg joe who do it have no balls at all. They climb shit they perceive as having zero chance of taking a fall on.
So you're saying except for the elite badass nutsos like Holding, Wright, and Berthod, etc., your average climber that places gear and goes ground up only do routes that they aren't challenged by and feel as though they can do without falling. I respectfully disagree. I'm wondering; is that just a personal opinion or are these things that you've just witnessed in your area, or everywhere you've been?
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jt512
May 23, 2011, 5:02 AM
Post #193 of 225
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jjones16 wrote: The reason is very simple. Trad climbers have more balls. I hate to say it, and I'm sure I'll catch hell from die hard sportsters for saying so, but it is absolutely true, and for one very simple reason that most miss. Unless you're sport climbing on a route with ancient and corroded 1/4 bolts, then you don't have to worry about your "protection" holding your fall. Trad climbers do not have that luxury. We don't rappel from the top and lock off to perfectly place a cam/hex/nut/tricam and then clip into a biner in half a second on the way up. We climb from the ground up, sometimes blindly and not knowing if we've brought adequate protection. The sport climber does not bear this task- at all. Even beginner sport climbers can quickly master clipping in if they are not complete clods (which inevitably some are) Trad... not so easy. You have a much more intimate experience with the rock, for not only are you trying to haul your ass up it using your hands, you're in a constant state of evaluation of the quality of rock, and the features in which you can PLACE gear that will hopefully save your life in the event of a fall. I have respect for anyone that can climb hard grades. I have no problem with bolted faces that can't be protected otherwise. I have no problem with a lone bolt on say... an unprotectable traverse (e.g. Zoo View 5.7, Moore's Wall NC). However, if gear can be safely employed to send a route, bolting it is just a tragedy- not to mention a big fat fuck you to everyone that developed both disciplines into what they are today. Although I do enjoy the adventurous nature of trad, and I prefer that discipline the most, I still do not label myself a "trad climber". I still top rope project routes, and I sport lead quite often as well. I'm a climber, period. I do not wish to disrespect the discipline of sport climbing, because I enjoy it. But to say that trad climbing doesn't require more balls, and an entirely different and added skillset than sport climbing is horseshit. This, my friend, is why some trad climbers cast disparaging remarks on sport climbers.
Yore a n00b.
Jay
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spikeddem
May 23, 2011, 5:31 AM
Post #194 of 225
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It's got nothing to do with a perceived lack of "courage" or "balls." Sure, those are the common criticisms, but the deeper reason for the criticism is a combination of a holier-than-thou (think "purity") and climbing low grades. Trad climbers that truly crank hard rarely criticize sport climbing with serious intent.
It's like the prude Christian talking about how awful partying is to justify away not being invited.
The same reasoning explains why we all hate those BET jerks.
I love trad climbing and bouldering and sport climbing. I cycle through phases of each one.
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ceebo
May 23, 2011, 12:41 PM
Post #195 of 225
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jjones16 wrote: ceebo wrote: jjones16 wrote: ceebo wrote: jjones16 wrote: The reason is very simple. Trad climbers have more balls. I hate to say it, and I'm sure I'll catch hell from die hard sportsters for saying so, but it is absolutely true, and for one very simple reason that most miss. Unless you're sport climbing on a route with ancient and corroded 1/4 bolts, then you don't have to worry about your "protection" holding your fall. Trad climbers do not have that luxury. We don't rappel from the top and lock off to perfectly place a cam/hex/nut/tricam and then clip into a biner in half a second on the way up. We climb from the ground up, sometimes blindly and not knowing if we've brought adequate protection. The sport climber does not bear this task- at all. Even beginner sport climbers can quickly master clipping in if they are not complete clods (which inevitably some are) Trad... not so easy. You have a much more intimate experience with the rock, for not only are you trying to haul your ass up it using your hands, you're in a constant state of evaluation of the quality of rock, and the features in which you can PLACE gear that will hopefully save your life in the event of a fall. I have respect for anyone that can climb hard grades. I have no problem with bolted faces that can't be protected otherwise. I have no problem with a lone bolt on say... an unprotectable traverse (e.g. Zoo View 5.7, Moore's Wall NC). However, if gear can be safely employed to send a route, bolting it is just a tragedy- not to mention a big fat fuck you to everyone that developed both disciplines into what they are today. Although I do enjoy the adventurous nature of trad, and I prefer that discipline the most, I still do not label myself a "trad climber". I still top rope project routes, and I sport lead quite often as well. I'm a climber, period. I do not wish to disrespect the discipline of sport climbing, because I enjoy it. But to say that trad climbing doesn't require more balls, and an entirely different and added skillset than sport climbing is horseshit. This, my friend, is why some trad climbers cast disparaging remarks on sport climbers. I have to bite on that. My personal experience aside (only recently done some trad) i have been serounded by trad climbers for years. 99% of them share the same common fear of not wanting to fall. All of those as a result hit mind games and do not climb harder than E2. Their are only a very few that i know of who push past that but not much further. Mostly i put that down to the fact that all they do is trad. Trad is not the best place to get strong (that much i learnt from my own climbing under the style). IMO i have had the best possible start to trad, im not insanely strong, but enough to climb E5 at the very least. I KNOW physically i'm able for that.. Mentally defo not.. but half the battle is already won. The only reason i would have ''balls'' to be looking up the line of E5's and more is because of sport climbing. If i had no mental game and no physical side.. i will also be doing nothing but E1's for years on end.. like they have. And having ''balls'' is a personal attribute.. not a style of climbing. The trigger for peoples fear is not exclusive to trad.. people get scared bouldering. The show of ''balls'' is overcoming that fear and getting on with it. I know the obvious argument is that trad can kill, bouldering can not (well it can but freak accidents). The point is, fear is fear.. once it gets you.. it cripples you in the same way. And there you go. No one is arguing that the vast majority of the climbing population can do higher grades in sport than in trad. Ever consider the reason for this strange anomaly? Nevermind. Also, no one posed the argument that one can hone strength and technique doing sport routes perhaps moreso than doing trad routes. Have you considered the possible reasons for this? Again, nevermind. If you cannot draw the correlation between these two trends, then I don't know what else I could possibly say. In addition, I didn't speak from a platform that even remotely implied that balls were NOT a personal attribute, and not a climbing style, so I'm still scratching my head on where the origin for your rebuttal came from. Oh, and as far as the "fear is fear" thing, bouldering highballs which I've only had limited experience with DID make me feel like I had a carrot in my ass. Taking a 20 footer on a jagged route and barely being caught by a .5 camalot before I got violated by a sharp flake... well that one made me shit a meat axe. Not exactly the same thing. Again, I'd like to reiterate that I do not profess undying loyalty to any discipline, as I enjoy them all. Nor do I look down on any one more than another. You're being defensive and offering irrelevant rebuttals that don't pertain to the original commentary at all. The question was "why are sport climbers dissed so much by trad? " and I was merely offering what I thought was the answer. I'm sorry that I offended you to the point of grasping at straws. I apologize. Your right, nobody was. You stated that trad climbers (i assumed as a whole) have more balls than sport climbers. If you meant the elite trad climbers who try to on sight E6+ then ok sure.. my hat is off to those few nut jobs, but the avg joe who do it have no balls at all. They climb shit they perceive as having zero chance of taking a fall on. . I respectfully disagree. I'm wondering; is that just a personal opinion or are these things that you've just witnessed in your area, or everywhere you've been?
Yeah im saying that, Our routes are graded with factor of death or injury in mind. Its not just about difficulty but also the protection of the route. From around E5 onward (getting into 5.12 and up kinda climbing) that is where falls have far greater chance of resulting in injury and death even if things are done right. The placement of gear becomes far between, you could have a first placement 3m up, then nothing else for 10m. All of the harder single pitch routes i have seen are very run out, almost to the point where i ask what is the purpose of placing any gear at all.
Put it this way, most people would not try to on sight a E6 unless climbing at least 8b sport.
Let me think, how else can i get to the level of 8b sport... with ought uhm... doing sport.
Btw, i read an article on one of holdings climbs. He top roped it a few times first before leading it if i recall. Not that im trying to take anything away from him as a fall would have been bad.. but your slightly delusional in thinking the avg climber has anything that resembles ''balls'' while climbing routes way below what he done. Do a vote if you want, i bet you my house most people on this site and world wide do not climb at such a level where the route can not protect properly against a serious fall. The in mind, if they are competent in placing gear then they are not that far off the safety margins of sport climbing.
Given the fact that you hang around longer while placing gear.. its logical that people downgrade more to stay within their endurance or strength limits.
Basically, in short.. your wrong.
(This post was edited by ceebo on May 23, 2011, 2:39 PM)
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superchuffer
May 23, 2011, 2:39 PM
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if you ain't placin pro, then you ain't climbin!
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spikeddem
May 23, 2011, 6:25 PM
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superchuffer wrote: if you ain't placin pro, then you ain't climbin!
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kennoyce
May 23, 2011, 6:59 PM
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[quote "jt512"]Quote:
Sport climbing takes less skill than crack climbing,
Baloney. Sport climbing does not require less skill than crack climbing, though it does require fewer skills. In sport climbing you don't need to know how to place gear, route find, self-rescue, find the descent, keep your head together on a runout, etc. But it doesn't take less skill. In sport climbing, the moves are harder and, contrary to what you've said below, less intuitive.
Quote:
Its more intuitive to pull down on a hold, hand jamming takes pratice and is not at "easy".
Your vision of what sport climbing entails is too limited. There is a hell of a lot more to it than "pulling down on holds." As an example, look at the first hard move on Hellraiser (5.12c) at Williamson Rock in SoCal. It goes something like this: From a right-hand gaston and a left-hand side-pull, stretch far out left with the left foot. Push with the right hand and pull with the left foot to rock over onto the left foot, while simultaneously bringing the right foot up into a high backstep and reaching with the left hand for a distant gaston. This puts you in a double-gaston-iron-cross-high-backstep. From this "intuitive" position, cross the right hand over the left, let the feet kick loose, reposition the feet on higher holds to the left, and deadpoint with the left hand to a jug.
I have found that most people fail to find this move intuitive. In contrast, the "sequence" up a crack is no secret.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-12-13 11:14 ][/quote]
Thanks for blowing the onsight for me Jay[;)]
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jt512
May 23, 2011, 7:03 PM
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kennoyce wrote: [quote "jt512"]Quote: Sport climbing takes less skill than crack climbing, Baloney. Sport climbing does not require less skill than crack climbing, though it does require fewer skills. In sport climbing you don't need to know how to place gear, route find, self-rescue, find the descent, keep your head together on a runout, etc. But it doesn't take less skill. In sport climbing, the moves are harder and, contrary to what you've said below, less intuitive. Quote: Its more intuitive to pull down on a hold, hand jamming takes pratice and is not at "easy". Your vision of what sport climbing entails is too limited. There is a hell of a lot more to it than "pulling down on holds." As an example, look at the first hard move on Hellraiser (5.12c) at Williamson Rock in SoCal. It goes something like this: From a right-hand gaston and a left-hand side-pull, stretch far out left with the left foot. Push with the right hand and pull with the left foot to rock over onto the left foot, while simultaneously bringing the right foot up into a high backstep and reaching with the left hand for a distant gaston. This puts you in a double-gaston-iron-cross-high-backstep. From this "intuitive" position, cross the right hand over the left, let the feet kick loose, reposition the feet on higher holds to the left, and deadpoint with the left hand to a jug. I have found that most people fail to find this move intuitive. In contrast, the "sequence" up a crack is no secret. -Jay [ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-12-13 11:14 ][/quote] Thanks for blowing the onsight for me Jay[;)]
By the time they re-open Williamson we'll all be too old to pull that move off anyway.
Jay
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jjones16
May 23, 2011, 8:21 PM
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ceebo wrote: jjones16 wrote: ceebo wrote: jjones16 wrote: ceebo wrote: jjones16 wrote: The reason is very simple. Trad climbers have more balls. I hate to say it, and I'm sure I'll catch hell from die hard sportsters for saying so, but it is absolutely true, and for one very simple reason that most miss. Unless you're sport climbing on a route with ancient and corroded 1/4 bolts, then you don't have to worry about your "protection" holding your fall. Trad climbers do not have that luxury. We don't rappel from the top and lock off to perfectly place a cam/hex/nut/tricam and then clip into a biner in half a second on the way up. We climb from the ground up, sometimes blindly and not knowing if we've brought adequate protection. The sport climber does not bear this task- at all. Even beginner sport climbers can quickly master clipping in if they are not complete clods (which inevitably some are) Trad... not so easy. You have a much more intimate experience with the rock, for not only are you trying to haul your ass up it using your hands, you're in a constant state of evaluation of the quality of rock, and the features in which you can PLACE gear that will hopefully save your life in the event of a fall. I have respect for anyone that can climb hard grades. I have no problem with bolted faces that can't be protected otherwise. I have no problem with a lone bolt on say... an unprotectable traverse (e.g. Zoo View 5.7, Moore's Wall NC). However, if gear can be safely employed to send a route, bolting it is just a tragedy- not to mention a big fat fuck you to everyone that developed both disciplines into what they are today. Although I do enjoy the adventurous nature of trad, and I prefer that discipline the most, I still do not label myself a "trad climber". I still top rope project routes, and I sport lead quite often as well. I'm a climber, period. I do not wish to disrespect the discipline of sport climbing, because I enjoy it. But to say that trad climbing doesn't require more balls, and an entirely different and added skillset than sport climbing is horseshit. This, my friend, is why some trad climbers cast disparaging remarks on sport climbers. I have to bite on that. My personal experience aside (only recently done some trad) i have been serounded by trad climbers for years. 99% of them share the same common fear of not wanting to fall. All of those as a result hit mind games and do not climb harder than E2. Their are only a very few that i know of who push past that but not much further. Mostly i put that down to the fact that all they do is trad. Trad is not the best place to get strong (that much i learnt from my own climbing under the style). IMO i have had the best possible start to trad, im not insanely strong, but enough to climb E5 at the very least. I KNOW physically i'm able for that.. Mentally defo not.. but half the battle is already won. The only reason i would have ''balls'' to be looking up the line of E5's and more is because of sport climbing. If i had no mental game and no physical side.. i will also be doing nothing but E1's for years on end.. like they have. And having ''balls'' is a personal attribute.. not a style of climbing. The trigger for peoples fear is not exclusive to trad.. people get scared bouldering. The show of ''balls'' is overcoming that fear and getting on with it. I know the obvious argument is that trad can kill, bouldering can not (well it can but freak accidents). The point is, fear is fear.. once it gets you.. it cripples you in the same way. And there you go. No one is arguing that the vast majority of the climbing population can do higher grades in sport than in trad. Ever consider the reason for this strange anomaly? Nevermind. Also, no one posed the argument that one can hone strength and technique doing sport routes perhaps moreso than doing trad routes. Have you considered the possible reasons for this? Again, nevermind. If you cannot draw the correlation between these two trends, then I don't know what else I could possibly say. In addition, I didn't speak from a platform that even remotely implied that balls were NOT a personal attribute, and not a climbing style, so I'm still scratching my head on where the origin for your rebuttal came from. Oh, and as far as the "fear is fear" thing, bouldering highballs which I've only had limited experience with DID make me feel like I had a carrot in my ass. Taking a 20 footer on a jagged route and barely being caught by a .5 camalot before I got violated by a sharp flake... well that one made me shit a meat axe. Not exactly the same thing. Again, I'd like to reiterate that I do not profess undying loyalty to any discipline, as I enjoy them all. Nor do I look down on any one more than another. You're being defensive and offering irrelevant rebuttals that don't pertain to the original commentary at all. The question was "why are sport climbers dissed so much by trad? " and I was merely offering what I thought was the answer. I'm sorry that I offended you to the point of grasping at straws. I apologize. Your right, nobody was. You stated that trad climbers (i assumed as a whole) have more balls than sport climbers. If you meant the elite trad climbers who try to on sight E6+ then ok sure.. my hat is off to those few nut jobs, but the avg joe who do it have no balls at all. They climb shit they perceive as having zero chance of taking a fall on. . I respectfully disagree. I'm wondering; is that just a personal opinion or are these things that you've just witnessed in your area, or everywhere you've been? Yeah im saying that, Our routes are graded with factor of death or injury in mind. Its not just about difficulty but also the protection of the route. From around E5 onward (getting into 5.12 and up kinda climbing) that is where falls have far greater chance of resulting in injury and death even if things are done right. The placement of gear becomes far between, you could have a first placement 3m up, then nothing else for 10m. All of the harder single pitch routes i have seen are very run out, almost to the point where i ask what is the purpose of placing any gear at all. Put it this way, most people would not try to on sight a E6 unless climbing at least 8b sport. Let me think, how else can i get to the level of 8b sport... with ought uhm... doing sport. Btw, i read an article on one of holdings climbs. He top roped it a few times first before leading it if i recall. Not that im trying to take anything away from him as a fall would have been bad.. but your slightly delusional in thinking the avg climber has anything that resembles ''balls'' while climbing routes way below what he done. Do a vote if you want, i bet you my house most people on this site and world wide do not climb at such a level where the route can not protect properly against a serious fall. The in mind, if they are competent in placing gear then they are not that far off the safety margins of sport climbing. Given the fact that you hang around longer while placing gear.. its logical that people downgrade more to stay within their endurance or strength limits. Basically, in short.. your wrong.
So I'm wrong because I asked you to clarify your statement. Did I word the questions wrong? Do you not like answering them? Oh and by the way, you're absolutely right. I'm sure Leo Holding pretty much always top ropes every route he attempts, especially 16 pitches up. Good example.
One more minor thing...
"From around E5 onward (getting into 5.12 and up kinda climbing) that is where falls have far greater chance of resulting in injury and death even if things are done right."
and then, almost in the next breath you state:
"Do a vote if you want, i bet you my house most people on this site and world wide do not climb at such a level where the route can not protect properly against a serious fall."
So umm... which is it? And how big is your house?
(This post was edited by jjones16 on May 23, 2011, 8:27 PM)
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cracklover
May 23, 2011, 10:22 PM
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kennoyce wrote: jt512 wrote: Quote: Sport climbing takes less skill than crack climbing, Baloney. Sport climbing does not require less skill than crack climbing, though it does require fewer skills. In sport climbing you don't need to know how to place gear, route find, self-rescue, find the descent, keep your head together on a runout, etc. But it doesn't take less skill. In sport climbing, the moves are harder and, contrary to what you've said below, less intuitive. Quote: Its more intuitive to pull down on a hold, hand jamming takes pratice and is not at "easy". Your vision of what sport climbing entails is too limited. There is a hell of a lot more to it than "pulling down on holds." As an example, look at the first hard move on Hellraiser (5.12c) at Williamson Rock in SoCal. It goes something like this: From a right-hand gaston and a left-hand side-pull, stretch far out left with the left foot. Push with the right hand and pull with the left foot to rock over onto the left foot, while simultaneously bringing the right foot up into a high backstep and reaching with the left hand for a distant gaston. This puts you in a double-gaston-iron-cross-high-backstep. From this "intuitive" position, cross the right hand over the left, let the feet kick loose, reposition the feet on higher holds to the left, and deadpoint with the left hand to a jug. I have found that most people fail to find this move intuitive. In contrast, the "sequence" up a crack is no secret. -Jay [ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-12-13 11:14 ] Thanks for blowing the onsight for me Jay[;)]
Actually, the idea that crack climbing is simpler is baloney. There are exceptions that are mostly about efficiency and endurance, but most hard crack climbs I've been on (mid 11 and up) require extremely subtle and tricky sequence, body positions, and "feel" for the crack. Even some relatively easy climbs can spit out strong climbers with decent crack technique if they don't have a good feel for it.
Here's an example: Quivering Quill 5.10c is a slightly overhanging hand and finger sized crack. It pods out near the top. I did it a few months ago, so I probably don't have it exactly right, but the sequence as I remember it goes something like this: A very high right foot on a face hold, a sloping gaston left hand, while you simultaneously transition a hand jam into an undercling, get a left foot into a pod, move the left hand into a chicken wing, which allows you to arm bar with the right. This allows you to get your left leg into the big crack at your chest. Now you're secure, and a series of arm bars and chicken wings gets your upper body up over your leg.
That's what it takes to move up 3 feet. On a 10c. It's as complex, albeit much easier physically, as the crux moves on some 12c sport routes I've done.
As for this trad climbers need more balls, sport climbers are stronger nonsense - that's really all it is. Both disciplines have a mix of weak wankers and people who are really dedicated and consistently push their limits. Most of us (myself included) fall in the middle somewhere, with moments that approach greatness, but generally dwelling in mediocrity. Whether we climb sport or trad has nothing to do with it.
GO
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wmfork
May 23, 2011, 11:21 PM
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cracklover wrote: Actually, the idea that crack climbing is simpler is baloney. There are exceptions
cracklover wrote: Here's an example: Quivering Quill 5.10c is a slightly overhanging hand and finger sized crack. It pods out near the top. |
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essay
May 24, 2011, 1:55 AM
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Trad climbers are just jealous that they missed out on the evolution of climbing and are still draging around 100 pound packs in addition to the monkey on their backs.
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camhead
May 24, 2011, 11:14 AM
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wmfork wrote: cracklover wrote: Actually, the idea that crack climbing is simpler is baloney. There are exceptions I think Jay disagreed that sport climbing is simpler than crack climbing, that doesn't mean he said crack climbing is simpler. On the other hand, I believe Steve Hong (FAed a bunch of hard (as in 5.13 hard, not 5.11 hard) cracks and sport routes up to mid 5.14) was quoted in an interview saying that he had to develope far more techniques/trickeries sport climbing than crack climbing. Anybody know the source? If not, I'll try to distract him w/ a young hottie next time I see him at the gym and get an answer .
Can't remember the source for Hong's statement, and I've never read it originally, but it has been paraphrased dozens of times on this site. I think that when you compare the hard sport climbs that hong was putting up (beta intricate routes at Rifle) with his hard crack climbs (repetitive enduro lines at the Creek), it definitely makes sense. However, you could just as easily compare a complex, facey trad line at the Gunks to an enduro sport line at the Red River Gorge, and come to the conclusion that sport is was simpler than trad.
At this point in the game, it is clear that beginning sport and trad lines can require substantially different techniques. However, moving up in the grades, the harder you get, the more similar sport and trad become in terms of movement. The logical conclusion would be something like Cobra Crack, which Trotter once said would best be climbed by a 5.14 sport climber who takes 6 months to learn crack technique.
****
p.s. I just read the old, nearly 10-year old at to this thread, and was kind of amused and embarrassed at my old "trad is rad" responses. heh.
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ceebo
May 24, 2011, 12:55 PM
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In reply to: So I'm wrong because I asked you to clarify your statement. Did I word the questions wrong? Do you not like answering them? Oh and by the way, you're absolutely right. I'm sure Leo Holding pretty much always top ropes every route he attempts, especially 16 pitches up. Good example. One more minor thing... "From around E5 onward (getting into 5.12 and up kinda climbing) that is where falls have far greater chance of resulting in injury and death even if things are done right." and then, almost in the next breath you state: "Do a vote if you want, i bet you my house most people on this site and world wide do not climb at such a level where the route can not protect properly against a serious fall." So umm... which is it? And how big is your house?
It is both. first is the danger, second is the hesitation. As for the conclusion, ''most'' trad climbers have no balls. You at some point attempted to tell me why they do?. Just seems you acting dumb and blaming it on my posting format to hide the fact you got nothing to prove otherwise?.
As for the leo thing, don't use climbs besides the point. The climb i was talking about was top roped first. The 16 pitch your talking about has nothing at all to do with that fact.
(This post was edited by ceebo on May 24, 2011, 1:03 PM)
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cracklover
May 24, 2011, 4:17 PM
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wmfork wrote: cracklover wrote: Actually, the idea that crack climbing is simpler is baloney. There are exceptions I think Jay disagreed that sport climbing is simpler than crack climbing, that doesn't mean he said crack climbing is simpler.
Fair enough.
In reply to: cracklover wrote: Here's an example: Quivering Quill 5.10c is a slightly overhanging hand and finger sized crack. It pods out near the top. So would that be an exception? Sounds like it just required some OW techniques and (gasp!) some face climbing techniques.
No, IME, it's the sustained splitter cracks of the Creek that are the exception. Most crack climbs are more, for lack of a better word, shifty. The thing that makes for the most intricate movements in crack climbs are changes in crack size, direction/angle, offset, steepness, and other things going on around the crack. It's when one or multiple of these things change mid climb that you need to get very creative sometimes.
camhead wrote: wmfork wrote: cracklover wrote: Actually, the idea that crack climbing is simpler is baloney. There are exceptions I think Jay disagreed that sport climbing is simpler than crack climbing, that doesn't mean he said crack climbing is simpler. On the other hand, I believe Steve Hong (FAed a bunch of hard (as in 5.13 hard, not 5.11 hard) cracks and sport routes up to mid 5.14) was quoted in an interview saying that he had to develope far more techniques/trickeries sport climbing than crack climbing. Anybody know the source? If not, I'll try to distract him w/ a young hottie next time I see him at the gym and get an answer . Can't remember the source for Hong's statement, and I've never read it originally, but it has been paraphrased dozens of times on this site. I think that when you compare the hard sport climbs that hong was putting up (beta intricate routes at Rifle) with his hard crack climbs (repetitive enduro lines at the Creek), it definitely makes sense. However, you could just as easily compare a complex, facey trad line at the Gunks to an enduro sport line at the Red River Gorge, and come to the conclusion that sport is was simpler than trad.
That's an interesting point. I have no experience with 5.14 of any kind, and only very limited experience with 5.13- crack and sport, so I'll leave it to others to determine what it's like in those ranges. All I'll say is that in crack climbing, just as in sport, I've seen some people do amazing things with finesse, sequence, and technique, while other folks need far more power/endurance to get through the same climb.
camhead wrote: However, moving up in the grades, the harder you get, the more similar sport and trad become in terms of movement. The logical conclusion would be something like Cobra Crack, which Trotter once said would best be climbed by a 5.14 sport climber who takes 6 months to learn crack technique.
I'm not convinced that a 5.14 sport climber who has spent a lifetime building up a repertoire of skills and abilities on face climbing could replicate all of that learning in crack climbing in six months. Sure, if they focused on one single climb, like Cobra crack, they could possibly do it. But to be able to consistently climb at the same level on a variety of crack sizes? I just don't buy that there is enough transference of skill, and I think the new skill-set that would have to be developed is pretty sizable.
GO
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wmfork
May 24, 2011, 5:14 PM
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cracklover wrote: No, IME, it's the sustained splitter cracks of the Creek that are the exception.
Well, IME, it's the splitter cracks (with little or no offset) of the Creek that sport climbers have absolutely the worst time on.
cracklover wrote: Most crack climbs are more, for lack of a better word, shifty. The thing that makes for the most intricate movements in crack climbs are changes in crack size, direction/angle, offset, steepness, and other things going on around the crack.
Like Ruby's Cafe (besides big changes in crack size)? Almost all the strong sport climbers make that their first 13 at the creek even though many would have hard time on a mid 12 splitter (kind of like how I was able to do ok on the "crux" pitch of moonlight but almost cried on the 20 ft of ringlock on pitch 9).
I'm not trying to argue whether crack climbing is easier or harder, but for good sport climbers transitioning into crack climbing, it is the subtlety of pure friction jam that they have the most problem with (and personally, the part of my skill that really deteriorates the longer I've been away from the creek). Any face feature or crack constriction tips it to their favor; wild body positions are nothing new to them. And if they can lay back a crack, well, it's impressive how hard some can lay back a crack.
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superchuffer
May 24, 2011, 6:14 PM
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In reply to: And when you stop sight-seeing, and learn to pull a hard move, I'll be impressed. Falling on 10b, that's just so adorable!
In reply to: Perhaps you'd have been more satisfied if you were actually able to send something.
In reply to: "Cool" is in the eye of the beholder. Your "cool" climbs would likely bore me.
In reply to: Well, you get my vote for the most judgmental user on the site. Jay
And well, you get mine Jay.
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cracklover
May 24, 2011, 6:41 PM
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wmfork wrote: cracklover wrote: No, IME, it's the sustained splitter cracks of the Creek that are the exception. Well, IME, it's the splitter cracks (with little or no offset) of the Creek that sport climbers have absolutely the worst time on.
Sure, if you take a strong climber who doesn't know the first thing about jamming and put him on a splitter, he'll flail more than something he can work around. But I'm not talking about cracks in corners or with big offsets the sport climber can layback. I'm talking about the crack that jogs right or left, pods out, flares and shifts size. And I'm not talking about sport climbers with little to no crack technique. I'm talking about people with a decent basic understanding of most crack techniques, and how that just doesn't cut it when the going gets a little weird.
In reply to: cracklover wrote: Most crack climbs are more, for lack of a better word, shifty. The thing that makes for the most intricate movements in crack climbs are changes in crack size, direction/angle, offset, steepness, and other things going on around the crack. Like Ruby's Cafe (besides big changes in crack size)? Almost all the strong sport climbers make that their first 13 at the creek even though many would have hard time on a mid 12 splitter (kind of like how I was able to do ok on the "crux" pitch of moonlight but almost cried on the 20 ft of ringlock on pitch 9).
I haven't been on either of those, so I won't comment. But honestly, I could take a solid 5.13 sport climber who has awesome endurance and teach him in 30 minutes how to climb 20 feet of ringlocks like it was nothing. It's a painful but simple technique, and the main problem is you get very little for your feet. But with enough power and endurance, s/he would cruise it no problem.
In reply to: I'm not trying to argue whether crack climbing is easier or harder, but for good sport climbers transitioning into crack climbing, it is the subtlety of pure friction jam that they have the most problem with (and personally, the part of my skill that really deteriorates the longer I've been away from the creek). Any face feature or crack constriction tips it to their favor; wild body positions are nothing new to them. And if they can lay back a crack, well, it's impressive how hard some can lay back a crack.
Yes, I've seen a 13- sport climber with little crack technique layback all the way up Three Strikes You're Out.
But there are plenty of pure cracks that are not like the pure splitters, dihedrals, and offsets you see in the creek. Typically in poorer desert rock, but you see them in good granite too. When the crack flares, veers to the left, and pods out, you better know what you're doing, or you're going for a ride.
GO
(This post was edited by cracklover on May 24, 2011, 6:43 PM)
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caughtinside
May 24, 2011, 6:49 PM
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cracklover wrote: I'm not convinced that a 5.14 sport climber who has spent a lifetime building up a repertoire of skills and abilities on face climbing could replicate all of that learning in crack climbing in six months. Sure, if they focused on one single climb, like Cobra crack, they could possibly do it. But to be able to consistently climb at the same level on a variety of crack sizes? I just don't buy that there is enough transference of skill, and I think the new skill-set that would have to be developed is pretty sizable. GO
isn't that the story of the Hubers, right before they showed up in Yosemite, learned to crack climb, and then freed El Cap?
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cracklover
May 24, 2011, 6:58 PM
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caughtinside wrote: cracklover wrote: I'm not convinced that a 5.14 sport climber who has spent a lifetime building up a repertoire of skills and abilities on face climbing could replicate all of that learning in crack climbing in six months. Sure, if they focused on one single climb, like Cobra crack, they could possibly do it. But to be able to consistently climb at the same level on a variety of crack sizes? I just don't buy that there is enough transference of skill, and I think the new skill-set that would have to be developed is pretty sizable. GO isn't that the story of the Hubers, right before they showed up in Yosemite, learned to crack climb, and then freed El Cap?
Is it? I've no idea. But if so, then at least in some cases, I guess I'm totally wrong on that front.
GO
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wmfork
May 24, 2011, 8:03 PM
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cracklover wrote: I haven't been on either of those, so I won't comment. But honestly, I could take a solid 5.13 sport climber who has awesome endurance and teach him in 30 minutes how to climb 20 feet of ringlocks like it was nothing. It's a painful but simple technique, and the main problem is you get very little for your feet. But with enough power and endurance, s/he would cruise it no problem.
cracklover wrote: Yes, I've seen a 13- sport climber with little crack technique layback all the way up Three Strikes You're Out. |
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saint_john
May 24, 2011, 8:25 PM
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jjones16 wrote: The reason is very simple. Trad climbers have more balls.
and highball boulders have more balls than trad climbers. and free soloists have more balls than highball boulders. and free sky divers have more balls than free soloists. but they don't brag much.
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roughster
May 24, 2011, 8:54 PM
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cracklover wrote: caughtinside wrote: cracklover wrote: Is it? I've no idea. But if so, then at least in some cases, I guess I'm totally wrong on that front. GO
Why do you think the military gives "nicknames" to their enemies? Because once something is labeled, it is easy to demonize it. "No I am not talking about you Johnny, it's those Sport Climbers I am talking about!"
If everyone realized that Chuck Palahniuk got it right when he wrote, "You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You're the same decaying organic matter as everything else, and we are all part of the same compost pile." There would be a lot less conflict in this world.
Until then, just keep choosing your side and talking crap about others. It may make you feel better about yourself.
(This post was edited by roughster on May 24, 2011, 8:55 PM)
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cracklover
May 24, 2011, 9:06 PM
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wmfork wrote: cracklover wrote: I haven't been on either of those, so I won't comment. But honestly, I could take a solid 5.13 sport climber who has awesome endurance and teach him in 30 minutes how to climb 20 feet of ringlocks like it was nothing. It's a painful but simple technique, and the main problem is you get very little for your feet. But with enough power and endurance, s/he would cruise it no problem. Not trying to be rude, but you don't know what you are talking about. Sure, the basic ideas of crack climbing is pretty simple, but absolutely in no way does the send come down to power and endurance. A good crack climber can make the moves much more secure and efficient, even though (s)he may seemingly be doing the exact thing.
Well, I was being a little facetious about the 30 minutes thing. And you're right, it can take a lot of time to get the subtleties of a simple technique. But that's really not what I was talking about at all. I was referring to crack climbs where simply having the techniques down ain't good enough to cut it. Routes that need creative/inobvious sequences/body positions.
In reply to: I'd love to just spend 30 minutes on ringlock and be able to do Optimator, but even at my best, I flailed miserably on it.
Well I did say a solid 5.13 sport climber with a lot of power and endurance. Your profile says you climb 5.1. So there's your problem. ;)
In reply to: cracklover wrote: Yes, I've seen a 13- sport climber with little crack technique layback all the way up Three Strikes You're Out. I didn't witness it, but I was talking about liebacking (almost) perfect splitter tight ringlock crack, not a desert corner, which is ghey.
You mean something like Coyne? Actually, it's not that uncommon for people to layback the first 20 feet. Trouble is that makes it so hard to get back into line with the crack.
GO
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cracklover
May 24, 2011, 9:11 PM
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roughster wrote: cracklover wrote: caughtinside wrote: cracklover wrote: Is it? I've no idea. But if so, then at least in some cases, I guess I'm totally wrong on that front. GO Not just on that front. Anyways... Why do you think the military gives "nicknames" to their enemies? Because once something is labeled, it is easy to demonize it. "No I am not talking about you Johnny, it's those Sport Climbers I am talking about!" If everyone realized that Chuck Palahniuk got it right when he wrote, "You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You're the same decaying organic matter as everything else, and we are all part of the same compost pile." There would be a lot less conflict in this world. Until then, just keep choosing your side and talking crap about others. It may make you feel better about yourself.
Wow, who pissed in your cheerios?
WTF are you talking about? I haven't talked crap about anyone. I'm not choosing a side, I climb both sport and trad, and love both. And if you have a problem with something I've said, put up or shut up. Point out my error and tell me what's wrong with it in your not so humble opinion rather than implying I'm wrong about some vast range of stuff.
Or maybe you're just confused, I dunno.
GO
(This post was edited by cracklover on May 24, 2011, 9:12 PM)
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wmfork
May 24, 2011, 9:24 PM
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cracklover wrote: You mean something like Coyne? Actually, it's not that uncommon for people to layback the first 20 feet. Trouble is that makes it so hard to get back into line with the crack. |
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cracklover
May 24, 2011, 9:39 PM
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wmfork wrote: cracklover wrote: You mean something like Coyne? Actually, it's not that uncommon for people to layback the first 20 feet. Trouble is that makes it so hard to get back into line with the crack. It was the same 5.12 section on moonlight that I was describing earlier. Unlike the crux finger lieback, this was pure friction jam, without the help of pin scars. I really wished I could have seen the frenchies lieback it (on lead no less), John told me they made it look like a 5.14 (and apparently the leader sent it) and was amused to see him jam thru it with a lot less effort.
That is impressive, in a nutty kind of way. The other problem with laybacking a crack like that is that you can't see your gear. Friend of mine saw some Euro layback the first 35(!) feet of Coyne, try to get back into line, fall, and rip all the gear that he'd placed blind.
GO
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petsfed
May 30, 2011, 8:27 PM
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cracklover wrote: But there are plenty of pure cracks that are not like the pure splitters, dihedrals, and offsets you see in the creek. Typically in poorer desert rock, but you see them in good granite too. When the crack flares, veers to the left, and pods out, you better know what you're doing, or you're going for a ride. GO
I think the critical evolution of the crack climber is when they stop seeking out just the shear jamming challenge for actual climbing difficulty. Sure, a 3/4" crack splitting an utterly flawless plane is hard, but the last 10 feet don't require any different moves from the first 10 feet. Make that face uneven though, throw in some flares and pods, that makes the climb harder, more interesting, and more attractive to the more mature climber. I actually suck at pure splitters because I'm so used to seeking out the little inconsistencies that make a bad size go. But then again, I'm not much of a technical sport climber either.
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rangerrob
Jun 6, 2011, 3:56 PM
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I can't believe 9 pages have been devoted this conversation. If you call yourself a climber you should know why sport weenies get dissed so much. If it has to be explained to you then you haven't really climbed in both disciplines enough.
RR
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caughtinside
Jun 6, 2011, 4:52 PM
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cracklover wrote: wmfork wrote: cracklover wrote: You mean something like Coyne? Actually, it's not that uncommon for people to layback the first 20 feet. Trouble is that makes it so hard to get back into line with the crack. It was the same 5.12 section on moonlight that I was describing earlier. Unlike the crux finger lieback, this was pure friction jam, without the help of pin scars. I really wished I could have seen the frenchies lieback it (on lead no less), John told me they made it look like a 5.14 (and apparently the leader sent it) and was amused to see him jam thru it with a lot less effort. That is impressive, in a nutty kind of way. The other problem with laybacking a crack like that is that you can't see your gear. Friend of mine saw some Euro layback the first 35(!) feet of Coyne, try to get back into line, fall, and rip all the gear that he'd placed blind. GO
I laid back the start of coyne and had my belayer eyeball the gear for me. Slammer greens.
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cracklover
Jun 6, 2011, 5:07 PM
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caughtinside wrote: cracklover wrote: wmfork wrote: cracklover wrote: You mean something like Coyne? Actually, it's not that uncommon for people to layback the first 20 feet. Trouble is that makes it so hard to get back into line with the crack. It was the same 5.12 section on moonlight that I was describing earlier. Unlike the crux finger lieback, this was pure friction jam, without the help of pin scars. I really wished I could have seen the frenchies lieback it (on lead no less), John told me they made it look like a 5.14 (and apparently the leader sent it) and was amused to see him jam thru it with a lot less effort. That is impressive, in a nutty kind of way. The other problem with laybacking a crack like that is that you can't see your gear. Friend of mine saw some Euro layback the first 35(!) feet of Coyne, try to get back into line, fall, and rip all the gear that he'd placed blind. GO I laid back the start of coyne and had my belayer eyeball the gear for me. Slammer greens.
Ha! Now that's climbing as a team!
GO
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kachoong
Jun 6, 2011, 5:26 PM
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cracklover wrote: caughtinside wrote: cracklover wrote: wmfork wrote: cracklover wrote: You mean something like Coyne? Actually, it's not that uncommon for people to layback the first 20 feet. Trouble is that makes it so hard to get back into line with the crack. It was the same 5.12 section on moonlight that I was describing earlier. Unlike the crux finger lieback, this was pure friction jam, without the help of pin scars. I really wished I could have seen the frenchies lieback it (on lead no less), John told me they made it look like a 5.14 (and apparently the leader sent it) and was amused to see him jam thru it with a lot less effort. That is impressive, in a nutty kind of way. The other problem with laybacking a crack like that is that you can't see your gear. Friend of mine saw some Euro layback the first 35(!) feet of Coyne, try to get back into line, fall, and rip all the gear that he'd placed blind. GO I laid back the start of coyne and had my belayer eyeball the gear for me. Slammer greens. Ha! Now that's climbing as a team! GO
In actuality it was a failed attempt at killing him.
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killingmorethancancer
Jun 16, 2011, 2:13 PM
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Head to Indian Creek and start bolting. Let me know how that goes for you.
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taydude
Jun 16, 2011, 3:37 PM
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It's pretty funny when you see these fat noob trad climbers spouting off about how trad is so superior to sport and bouldering while they're dragging their ass up a 5.6 with a full set of hexes and big bros. I think trad CAN be more ballsy and hard at the higher levels but I'm not going to go around bragging that i just climbed a 5.9 on trad.
disclaimer: I think all climbing at the high end requires a certain amount of testicular fortitude. Whether some crazy trad route with micro nuts or a sport route so hard you have to skip 2 bolts and take 50ft whippers.
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