Seems like there's an animosity going on, and its difficult to understand, even though I realize the differences, in the risk factors of placing gear.
(Especially noticeable in a places predominately trad,such as j.tree.)

Any Thoughts???
:?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

comments such as mesomorf's (and the whole topic of this thread) just reflect closemindedness.

And, ethics and style have nothing to do with sport climbing. Before you bash me for saying this--this statement is paraphrased from comments made by kalcario and jt512, who are sport climbers.

its probably cause sport climbing resembles indoor rockclimbing so much.

Bolts every 4 feet, preplaced draws, stick clipping...

boldering, trad, sport blah blah blah...it is all climbing. the difference stems from what each person takes and gives to it. that is the beauty of the sport, it will always challenge you and keep you guessing.

Well, I suspect that you're getting a little creative with that paraphrasing, or at least taking comments out of context. Sport climbing certainly has its style and ethics standards.

In spite of some high-profile examples of chipping, this practice is still, I'd say, considered unethical -- at least if the rock isn't junk to begin with. If it is then the distinction between cleaning and chipping blurs.

And style certainly is important in sport climbing. The goal of sport climbing is an onsight, flash or redpoint ascent. Anything else is either a failure or a practice run. This doesn't differ much from trad, as far as I can tell.

-Jay

enough with these sport vs trad threads. They rate down at the bottom with chipping, shoe threads and the ongoing debate over blackdiamond cam superiority.

In the Olden Days, climbing was a means to an end: the Summit. But now, and especially for sport climbers, the climbing is an end unto itself.

Bolting has long been considered bad form...

Bolting next to cracks, just so sport climbers don't have to use gear, is the absolute worst, and borders on depraved laziness.

One of the most obvious (and mostly natural) lines up El Capitan was drooled over for years before an ingenious...

The indiscriminate use of bolts is like using an aluminum bat in baseball, or having 34 specialized clubs in your golf bag, or using an electric motorbike in the Tour de France. Any amount of technology can be used to overcome the difficulty that many believe to be an inherent part of the sport.

I don't know, Curt. "Style" and sport-climbing don't mix all that well.

You say that like it's a bad thing. What you have stated is the very essence of sport climbing. It's about the movement, not the summit.


Wrong. Bolting was once considered bad form.

Here's a question I don't know the answer to, but a different spin on the above question.

"Can non trad climbers be considered real Rock Climbers, or just Climbers"



2. Pure "sport" climbers who don't do anything else don't have to learn rope work and proper anchors beyond clipping bolts or extending TR bolts. They don't have to learn equalization, natural rigging, pro placement, etc. True they are climbing real rock, but not utilizing what the rock has to offer; it's like gym climbing outdoors. True it requires good climbing skills, but it doesn't require any rope / climbing equipment skills.

3. "Trad" climbing brings in a whole new element of using the resources the rock / nature gives you to protect the climb. Protecting traverses, using equalized gear, evaluating rock quality, how to set up bomber clean anchors / belay stations, etc. are all important skills.



L.J.

You know, equalizing anchors, clipping bolts, and rope management have nothing to do with the actual climb itself.

You missed the point of my question. I'm not referring to "Rock" Climbing as the strict act of grabbing and pulling on holds to get to the top, but the whole process of properly using gear / equipment. Many climbers today who learn / are introduced in the gyms and not on the rock seam to lack some of the basic "rock craft" training.

Sort of like learning math with a calculator instead of learning the basics by hand first. Or like how one should learn how to machine by hand before attempting to draft something to be built or use CNC equipment. Often we need to learn the fundamental basics to fully appreciate the process / big picture. Rock Craft, so to speak, is an important aspect in the "Rock" climbing sport. With out "Rock Craft", are we really "Rock" Climbers, or just simple climbers.

Finally often setting anchors has everything to do with the climb. Should I run it out, is this the last good placement I have, am I reaching a crux, or is it easy going. Protection on a climb can add a whole other element to the climb.

L.J.

* Bolting has long been considered bad form, because better climbers with better gear in the future are expected to be able to go up "unclimbable" routes without them.*

The same argument could (should) be made against those who arrogantly bash pitons into and out of cracks, thin seams and corners which might go free in a natural state to better climbers are hacked and butchered by those of your ilk, if rock alteration bothers you so much then don't do it.

Trad vs sport is an important issue

True.

DMT

No, it isn't. The vs. part in particular, doesn't amount to a tinker's damn. Nothing you or anyone else says here will change the equation.

It's nothing more than a few theologians arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Perhaps a fine exercise in debating skills, but ultimately irrelevant.

True.

DMT

I'm gonna get slammed all to heck for saying this, but it does solve the bolting issue partially. I personally think TRing is a perfectly acceptable means of rock climbing, but for many people it's an outrage for some reason. If more areas had access to the top of routes then you would only need the TR anchors. Take all the effort that is put into bolting routes and put that energy into creating access to top anchors somehow. Clearly this isn't an option for everything, but it can be used in quite a few places to solve the bolting issue.

I find this amazingly intense thread rather intrigueing: how so many climbers could draw a line in the sand and pick sides over a tertiary issue is astonishing!

I agree with a lot of what was said previously; i agree with points made by each "side" as well as those without a side. I also disagree with a lot of what has been said, but that's what forums are for--it'd be really dull if we all agreed on everthing.

What some people may have forgotten while strapped-in to their soapboxes (aka "rights", "opinions", "the way they were brought up", etc), is that Sport/Trad/bouldering are protection terms. If a single-pitch crack climb is only accessible by no. 1's and 2's and a fat hex at the crux, you still have to climb it. If a multipitch sport lead is bolted every 10 feet, you still have to climb it. If a v10 only gets
4.2 feet off the turf, you still have to climb it.

The manner in which you prevent your own (or you partner's) grounder is up to you, and up to the rock. Style, gear, ethics, etc. are part of the "sport of climbing", but the primal goal still remains: to get to the top.

Whatever you preferred vinue... climb on.

TRing is great because it is safe and if the top of the route has properly placed bolts it is not impacting the environment to climb there. Now that is a great use of bolts! :D

I agree with the idea that TR is a viable alternative...

Right me if I misunderstood something, but do you really think that TR climbing is the same as leading? No, for me and, I believe for many, others, TR anchors would not be an alternative to bolts (lets presume the bolts are inevitable - no cracks etc.). It's just completely different experience to lead (even on a sport climb), not to mention that it is physically more demanding.

Then try TR'ing something well above your leading ability. Something you have to work on/out every single move to unlock the sequence. Each form of climbing has their own form of reward.

I think the real difference is that sport climbers climb all the most impossible climbs, like Realization, which could never be climbed on Trad. Trad climbers climb routes that have no bolts and place protection in the rock as they go, the routes are not impossible by any means, but it's scary as hell trad climbing.

Result:

Sport Climbing: more physical, less mental
Trad Climbing: less physical, more mental

Why is this so complicated?

In fact some say climbing should be the pure essence of the move, not worrying about protection. .... Then isn't TR'ing the purest form of climbing since you don't have to worry about any protection / safety, just the climb and the moves?

If they think we are defaceing rock then there will be a public outcry and the bolting issue will close more areas to climbing. Be it to many bolts, graffitti or what have you the Fact is: There are access issues because of the bolting. Bolts are needed, but like everything else, miss use of them is a problem. AS far as access trails. Do you participate in your local area trail days? Do you practice no trace camping etc etc.

I like to hear other's opinions,on this . It's important to understand how others see the world of climbing ,too :!: :!: :idea:

Why Can't Trad Leaders ;Respect Sport Leaders More???

The reason for this crap is one word EGOISM!!!

jt512,

No, bolting is still considered bad form.

I reckon its the same reason F-15 pilots probably feel way cooler than cessna pilots. You sport climbers still climb, but you wont ever get to play with as many toys, the mental challenges of sport climbing barely exist when compared to trad, and sport climbing limits you to a bolted route whereas trad climbers can go virtually anywhere the rock permits. Sport climbs are seldom more than a single pitch (at least up here in AK) so all the tallest, coolest, funnest, prettiest climbs require trad climbing. Trad climbing is like personally pioneering your own route every time; there are myriad ways to climb a single route on trad, but you are forced to repeat the route-stters move on bolts.

As for animosity, no, I dont dislike sport climbers. I climb sport often enough that it would be right hypocritical for me to dislike them merely for sport climbing. I have animosity towards people who don't respect what is obviously harder and more technical than what they are doing. Its the same as hearing an ignorant child arguing with his or her college-educated teacher-just laughable. I can't respect the mosquitoe buzzing in my ear.

PS-Gawd, what is more condusive to inadequacy, blind equality or realistic differentiation? Those who feel they deserve the same recognition as people who do greater things ARE inadequate by definition. Not the other way around.

I have hand drilled routes, done route ground up both sport and trad and continue to do so on a regular basis. Some of the most hairball situations I have ever been in have been while establishing sport routes.

I'll tell you what. I give props to ANYONE out there putting up new routes regardless of what their prefered style is. It takes imagination, time, $$, and just plain 'ole hardwork to establish new routes. Hats off to developers everywhere for contributing to our sport.

Aaron

Seems like there's an animosity going on, and its difficult to understand, even though I realize the differences, in the risk factors of placing gear.
(Especially noticeable in a places predominately trad,such as j.tree.)

Any Thoughts???
:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: