OMG, this is going to get good. Better than NASCAR I tell you.

You actually expect to have a honest, civil debate about whether these holds were manufactured based on pictures? Are we going to have competing geological theories about the plausible formation of these pockets and cracks?

I should also point out that this is the only route of his I have seen.

So much for keeping it civil...And this from a moderator,
who I would think should be held to a higher standard.
Like I said, I'm not going to engage in flame wars here.

Hardman Knott

On another level entirely, the amount of work you put into this is scary. 8)

On another level entirely, the amount of work you put into this is scary.

Nice job compilling the evidence.


On another level entirely, the amount of work you put into this is scary. 8)

Are those holds cleaned with a hammer? Yes. Are they drilled?? No. Look at the surrounding rock in everyone of those pictures. Each section has the exact same formations, coloring, and types of features. You will not find any "novel features" on that route that you cannot find on on every one of the neighboring and surrounding routes ...

1 out of 200+ routes down. ...

I'm glad that Aaron admits the holds were "cleaned" with a hammer.
Whether they were enhanced with a hammer, chisel, drill bit, drill,
etc. does not really matter that much to me; they all have about
the same effect (although it's hard to create a deep pocket with a
blunt hammer).

I agree with Aaron that such "features" (i.e. enhanced holds)
do exist on some of the other routes at the crag. But the locals
did not like Aaron's route because "every" hold on it was enhanced.

Probably Aaron just misjudged the frequency of chipped holds
on the other routes, but that would be hard to judge without
viewing the sections of rock before and after routes are
established (this is how my friend made the observation that
every hold on this particular route was enhanced).

Probably to some people, "frequency of enhanced holds" is
not much of a basis for criticizing a route. I.e. either it "is chipped"
or "isn't chipped". But personally, I don't like to see routes where,
say, over 50% of the holds are enhanced (I'm not sure I'd like to
see routes with 30% of holds chipped, either...). But styles
vary by area. For example at Smith Rock there (was/is?) one
crag up a gully with a lot of bolt-on holds. Such stuff would not
be accepted in most areas, like say The Cookie in Yosemite.
And you don't see many sport routes at Lover's Leap, the Gunks,
or in Connecticut. So Aaron's route was more enhanced
than the norm at the crag.

It hasn't led to its bolts being removed,
nor has it been popular, either. I had never seen any chalk on its
holds myself until I saw those photos....

Fair enough. I'm not here to say that Aaron is a bad guy or something
for one particular route he did several years ago. I've done a few
first ascents myself which did not turn out well. We try to learn
and move along in those cases.

Clint Cummins

I agree with Aaron that such "features" (i.e. enhanced holds)
do exist on some of the other routes at the crag.

Some motherf__er chipped holds on a fun little climb that I put up years ago at New Jack City (probably the only route requiring trad gear there). The start was hard 5.9 friction/angled edges, and I put two bolts close together (crack higher up). Stopped by last year and someone had chipped TONS of big holds up the previous crux start and removed the first bolt, apparently deciding to make the route a novice-face-climber-friendly route with a chiseled 5.5 start.

Next time I'm by (i.e. next winter), I'll take pics and send them to you, they'll be a good example of known chiseled holds. Compared to the piles of gunshells and broken glass at NJC it's pretty irrelevant, but it sure pissed me off. Everyone says "what do you expect at NJC?"...

"If you don't have something nice to say, don't say it." and I say "If you don't know what you're talking about, don't talk."

I climbed in the States for 6 months in 1995 and as I was based in SF spent quite a few days climbing at Jailhouse. I recall glue (one hold was called the cookie - a hold created by a cookie shaped hold glued in a slot to create an incut) and many other holds that were blatantly enhanced. It appears that this was the ethics used by some of the developers here. In their defence I do have to say though that the climbing at this cliff was brilliant and I enjoyed it alot.

The issue is weather he has chipped routes.

Now you can be as "pissed off" as you want. If you would take some responsibility, you would find you have only yourself to blame. As far as the "piles of gunshells and broken glass" goes, did you pick anything up? Unless you have done something about it, stop your b-tching. In the last 7 seasons I have cleaned up and gotten rid of burned out cars, painted out graffiti, washing machines, trash, glass, gunshells ect. Last season I cleaned all the trash and quite a bit of the broken glass in the main area, check it out, the main area looks pretty good. I've got quite a ways to go and thus far done it all by myself, I could use some help! So either your part of the solution or your part of the problem.

Not to worry pbjosh, I'll get to your post tomorrow! In the mean time think about Insomnia and the Vampire they are both chis jobs, can you figure out which holds? How about the Cookie cliff or any number of cliffs in Yos? Your really have no clue do you? BTW I'll be at Williamson on thursday afternoon, why don't you come out climbing with me and show me all the chised holds you've "heard enough about from enough people I respect"? You were pretty specific when naming myself and others, now I would like you to name your respected sources! No f-cking excuses!

Keep in mind that 'cleaning' chossy/bad/dangerously loose rock and chipping holds are two different things.

There is no ethical distinction between drilling a pocket and prying off a "loose" flake with a crowbar.

Any Woman chippers out there?...

Sure there is. It would be unethical not to pry the loose flake off., unless, of course, you glued it.

-Jay

I don't know much about ethics... but I think I would rather pull on a nice smooth "comfortized" pocket then on a sharp "natural" pocket... but that's just me.

Cleaning is chipping: Yes, and it should be frowned upon. Sport climbing locals be damned! If the rock ain't safe, why you gotta make it safe?

dingus,

Being that the whole thing is chipped, makes it a disgrace.

I don't want to misunderstand you, here. Are you saying it is acceptable because it has been done by others?

Are you saying cleaning is acceptable, therefore so is chipping?

Or are you just pointing out the inconsistancies at which most of us pick and choose our ethics?

Cleaning is chipping: Yes, and it should be frowned upon. Sport climbing locals be damned! If the rock ain't safe, why you gotta make it safe?

Chipping is chipping: Yes, and see hookers eloquent post on the penile enhancement angle.

The people that seem to be poo-poohing this "alleged" chipping have some issues. Penis size not being the least, I'm sure.

Personally I will do more than talk smack to those I catch chipping.

Well, cause in this case the cliff is on private property and they have permission from the owner. You and I have no right to impose our ethics upon them. I will defend their right to defile that crag in any manner they choose as long as they don't violate the wishes of the cliff owner.

Who will own the rock 200 years from now? If we take this position, eventually all rock has the potential to be chipped because at sometime someone will own it that allows chipping. How happy would we be if climbing had run its course 200 years ago and the majority of possible routes had been chipped down to 5.4?

I don't think it is usually the land owners who are chipping, it's climbers with the owner's consent, and I suspect in some cases the owner may not be entirely aware of what is going on, or may not have enough knowledge of the issue to make an informed decision.

Forget who owns the land for a moment. As climbers, do we not have a responsibility to future climbers to be good custodians of the climbing resources?

Should we not be advocating preservation of the rock, regardless of the views of its current owners? Should we not be trying to convince those among us who see no problem with chipping that they are destroying the future of our sport?

I just don't see how land ownership is relevant to ethical principle here.

Raise yourself to the level of the climb.

Your comfort is irrelevant.

What you want is irrelevant.

This attitude expressed in the above quote is what leads to future lines being jeopardized, vandalized, and taken from those that can push the limits of the sport into new areas.

That is absolute crap. That attitude is what keeps me having fun, and you can go to hell if you think my comfort is irrelevant- because it's MY comfort. Just because I want to keep my fingers from hurting doesn't mean I am going to drill holds. On the contrary, I practice low impact climbing and camping. If you don't like it then you can screw off.

..but I think I would rather pull on a nice smooth "comfortized" pocket then on a sharp "natural" pocket... but that's just me.

Your "comfort" is very relevant if it means that everyone else is affected by your pansy-ness. climbing hurts your fingers.

Ever ask yourself what you'd have to climb in SoCal and Nevada if it weren't for these guys?

What's up there Big Pedro???


Please point me to any reasonable precedence to support this eventuality. Nothing I have seen in the evolution of climbing in my 30 years of participation suggests this fate. You have vastly overblown your case and it diminishes any kernel of truth in your argument. May I suggest you be more realistic next time? 5.4's... hehe.

I personally am not one of these people who assigns human or holy qualities to a cliff.

So no, I do not believe preservation of the rock should be our war cry going forward. Route preservation, yes. Rock preservation, no.

I believe passionately that the way to preserve access and routes and potential going forward, yes, all of these things, all at the same time, is to learn and respect and observe local ethics.

Why can't you understand that hundreds if not thousands of climbers disagree with each other on how that stewardship should be executed?

So I'm a pansy if I would like to keep my fingers uninjured? thats bs.

Also, how would others be affected by my wanting a smooth pocket? I never said that I was going to drill the rock, did I?!?!?!

What about preservation of potential routes?

How does a local ethic that allows chipping preserve potential?

Climber behavior is a social issue. New climbers can learn that chipping is not ok, just like kids can learn that littering is not ok - but we have to tell them.

In your profile, when you are dogging your way up the 5.9 on toprope, it is evident by your calm yet fierce expression that you are one of the great ones of Ohio, land of endless rock and the epicenter for every standard increase in the last 20 years. When you go climbing somewhere other than your local chosspile, ask a local how they would be affected by your wanting of a "smooth pocket".

If you were to smooth the pocket, they would be affected by not being able to climb a rough pocket.

No s___.

If people are prying crap off with crow bars and hammers on the one hand while vilifying the next logical step on the other we can't and won't have any consensus. Period.

Finally, this argument about 5.9's today vs. 11's of tomorrow, or 14's today instead of 15's tomorrow... yawn. There are far more routes now than ever. Come back in 10 years and the same will be true then. There is so much untapped potential in America it isn't even funny.

As a developer of more than 125 sport routes I find this an interesting thread. It seems some people are very opinionated and lack experience while a few others although still opinionated know when modification of a hold is acceptable and when it is not. Some people recognize a developer is subject to making occasional mistakes especially early in his/her career. And of course some folks don't know how to recognize an artificial hold when they see one or think they see one.

For the people that say the rock should be left just as God left it for us I really do not have an argument, if that is what they want that is what they should climb on. Of course these people will not be found on bolted sport routes. These people either throw pro into the places they can or they free solo. These folks don't even clean the dirt out of a crack when sending a route.

Of course other people enjoy other types of climbing. If I were limited to climbing rock without being able to clean the choss from it before I climb it I would not be able to climb in Southern Oregon and would not climb as a result. Sorry, but I choose to climb and will continue to clean choss from the rock I climb. Some of the choss we deal with locally has included Volkswagen size chunks of rock weighing several thousand pounds that were easily and quickly pried off with a 30-inch crowbar. I don't know about the purists out there but I certainly don't want to be pulling off something this size, this weak, while is sits above me and I am 60 feet off the deck with my daughter below me belaying me.

As for the controversial pockets posted on this thread it would of course take a personal up close inspection to say for sure whether or not the holds were manufactured. From the appearance in the pictures some seem to have lichen on them. Lichen grows very slowly and probably would not exist in an area where a drill or hammer had been used, in these areas I would expect to see bare rock.

I will admit I have "comfortized" some pockets and edges at my local crag. The rock I have been developing is welded tuff. Some of the pockets and edges have lips that are just as sharp as a razor blade. If you were to pull on one of these edges you need to either wear Kevlar gloves or you need to round the edge so you can pull on the pocket or edge. If you do not I guarantee you the edge will cut your finger to the bone and quickly. Of course the other option is to not put in the route but as I stated earlier that is not an option. Other pockets or edges have needle like protrusions up to ¼" long. These are very definitely needle like and you will not exert more than a pound or so of force on them without having them penetrate your skin and rapidly find their way to the bone. Some of these edges and needles of rock are in the middle of 5.11/12 crux moves or in other words they are in locations where you will either have to pull very hard or levitate. I for one have not yet mastered the art of levitation. Scraping a hammer or file across these needles of rock easily breaks them off.

As for what Aaron may or may not have done keep in mind the pockets of controversy may have been modified by someone else long after Aaron developed the route. The other thing to keep in mind is even if Aaron did enhance or manufacture pockets on this particular route it is of little negative consequence because of two factors. First nobody always gets it right in your opinion or mine and second Aaron has made a considerable contribution of time and resources to the climbing community with the many routes he has put up that we can all enjoy.

Bill

(...loud flames and...)

I've put up a lot more than 125 routes. Some sport, most not.

NONE have manufactured, glued, improved, cleaned, or augmented holds. Whatever you want to call it. I climbed what was there. Period.

(...more flames...)

"The Truth remains: Climbing hard routes doen't make you a decent human being. "

and beating people up for highly subjective reasons does?

I'm curious how far your ethics go? Do you beat up road crews when they start digging? Ever driven through a tunnel?

You draw an invisible line somewhere -- this part of the world is sacred -- this part is not.

the inconsistency of fools.

Sucking the cheese from my scrotum would be of greater benefit to society than the routes these knuckle draggers put-up.

give you a straight-up earful if you imply he's chipping at "his" areas. Jeez, why didn't you just straight out ask him if he manufactures holds? He's very accessible, and doesn't seem to waste much time candy coating things.

In the mean time think about Insomnia and the Vampire they are both chis jobs, can you figure out which holds? How about the Cookie cliff or any number of cliffs in Yos? Your really have no clue do you? BTW I'll be at Williamson on thursday afternoon, why don't you come out climbing with me and show me all the chised holds you've "heard enough about from enough people I respect"? You were pretty specific when naming myself and others, now I would like you to name your respected sources! No f-cking excuses!

It seems some people are very opinionated and lack experience... And of course some folks don't know how to recognize an artificial hold when they see one or think they see one.

The Vampire is a very deserving route. It's really not much of a testpiece for the grade, but it is a stellar line and one of the best routes in socal.

I've heard enough about Williamson from enough people whose opinions I respect to include it...
I've heard from probably a dozen people about chipping at Williamson, some directly implied it was you.

Tell me your climbing heroes and I might have a story for ya

I fortunately don't have enough experience with the rock at hand to comment.

These debates are, in general, magazine fodder bounced back and forth between armchair mountaineers who are basically too lazy to get out there and do anything themselves. Not to say their opinions are without merit, but until you've established some first ascents yourself and seen what it's really like, you'll seem much wiser to offer thoughts, as opposed to voicing strong convictions that are probably going to change if you were ever to enter the arena yourself.

However, I think a chippers witch hunt is a long overdue exercise.

This is an ancient issue that was resolved almost 20 years ago but most of the people on this site were'nt around then. You can complain and call names all you want on the internet, you go to your crags and we'll go to ours and everything will be ok. Maybe try focusing your outrage on something important

Obviously there are grey lines. I'm not including prying off flakes or crufty rock or pin scars, just obviously chipped/drilled/enlarged/manufactured holds.

Here's a start, not going with places with one chipped hold but places where it predominates.

Known chipped areas:
Williamson Rock
New Jack City
Mt Charleston
Mt Potosi

Yes the majority of newer areas in the U.S. have manufactured holds. They are new because they were considered unclimable choss until somebody stepped up and did what was necessary to develop the crag. There is nothing wrong with taking a few otherwise worthless chosspiles and converting them into outdoor gyms. You can still go get your trad jollies at crags that are'nt developed this way.

Williamson. I've climbed there a fair amount and enjoyed it. I haven't been to New Jack but I might sometime

Presumed chippers. If anyone can clear any of these people, as I cannot either damn them or prove them innocent, please step forward. I'm going purely on what I've heard when I've heard it from a lot of people and will happily eat crow if I'm wrong (and I wish I were about some of these folks):
Tony Yaniro
Randy Leavitt
Jack Marshall
Joe Brooks

I've heard from probably a dozen people about chipping at Williamson, some directly implied it was you. I've also heard plenty about chipping at the hand of Randy Leavitt which I'm inclined to believe, but I don't have nearly as much info, kinda same goes for Louie Anderson though I'm for the most part more certain of that one. Tony Yaniro's activities in Vegas and Wild Iris at least have been well documented in the mags and all over the place.

As Hillary suggested, I'll just straight up ask - have you chipped holds at Williamson? How about New Jack?

If you tell me you've never chipped a hold I'll believe you - honest. But I'd like you to just be honest with what you've done. It seems like everyone (particularly Aaron Rough) dodges the issue excessively.

Sorry if making a list pisses people off but hey, chipping and being shy about the issue pisses a lot of people off as well

The next pm or post I get from you better be an apology, answers to my questions, offer of a beer or a request for a romantic date.