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t-dog
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Nov 12, 2005, 5:54 AM
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For those of you who missed the press release, here it is:
http://biz.yahoo.com/...03/nyth247.html?.v=2
So what do the RC.com pundits make of this? Do you guys think that we'll be seeing any change in prAna products for the better or for the worst? Will it simply mean that we'll be able to find them elsewhere than just REI and climbing stores? What do you guys think?
P.S. please leave any "climbing is becoming popular and going down the drain" rants out of this thread.
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chalkfree
Nov 12, 2005, 6:02 AM
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wow.
does that mean the price of those neat short/pant things is going down?
or up?
I'm a bit confused as to the market ramifications... Economics people?
At least it looks like the founders are going to be have some say, maybe that'll tone down the "climbing is becoming popular and prAna is going the way of Northface" crowd down a bit.
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areyoumydude
Nov 12, 2005, 6:04 AM
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Prana is gay.
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hosh
Nov 12, 2005, 6:05 AM
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Hmmm... interesting.
Don't suspect that things will change that much.
hosh.
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squierbypetzl
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Nov 12, 2005, 6:08 AM
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In reply to: "We are very pleased to announce this acquisition. PrAna is quickly becoming one of the most influential brands in the outdoor lifestyle industry, having developed a reputation for coupling style and technical excellence with thoughtful and responsible operating practices. This acquisition allows us to partner with one of the strongest trending brands in the high-growth active, outdoor and yoga industries and provides further channel diversification into select outdoor stores and specialty retailers through the prAna brand. PrAna has significant organic growth potential through optimizing the penetration of its core retail base. We believe there are abundant growth opportunities in new apparel categories and complementary brand extension opportunities in non- apparel categories which leverage Liz's core competencies in building lifestyle brands, as well as specialty retail and international expansion opportunities that preserve prAna's core retail network."
Prana is quickly becoming influential? This guy hasn´t talked to a lot of climbers recently...
While my initial thought was along the lines of "Aww man!! Soon they´ll be mass-marketing cool climber gear to every wannabe with $80 to spend on a pair of shorts...", but the truth is that business is business. Like with The Northface; a lot of peopled considered them sellouts, but the truth is that businesses are created to make money, being active in the community comes in at 2nd place.
Heck, maybe with more people buying Prana they´ll lower their damn prices a bit.
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mistymountainhop
Nov 12, 2005, 6:11 AM
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So does this mean every frat boy/ sorority girl is going to be wearing the brand that so many climbers see as unique to them?
This is gross. is prana ever going to be the same?
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hosh
Nov 12, 2005, 6:17 AM
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prAna stuff is already trendy.
I've seen school teachers who are NOT the outdoors type wearing prAna pants. how does that make them "climber specific"?
having said that, I've got some prAna stuff and will most likely acquire more.
They're doing what buisnesses do, make money. I say horray for prAna!
hosh.
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t-dog
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Nov 12, 2005, 6:20 AM
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In reply to: So does this mean every frat boy/ sorority girl is going to be wearing the brand that so many climbers see as unique to them?
In case you were not aware of it, prAna is also a really big yoga clothing company. I know just as many if not more yogis who are supprised to learn that prAna makes climbing clothes than vice-versa. prAna was never unique to climbers, get over it.
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rgbscan
Nov 12, 2005, 6:21 AM
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What are some US manufacturers that still make their own stuff and haven't "sold-out"? I've had my eye on an Organic bouldering pad for some time. Who are some other small time gear makers are out there keeping it local? I feel bad giving money away to the overseas big boys every time I go to REI.
Chris
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hosh
Nov 12, 2005, 6:24 AM
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t-dog...
out of curiosity, what is your intrest in prAna?
hosh.
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areuinclimber
Nov 12, 2005, 6:28 AM
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who gives a shit about prana. we should all just go to our own special places to "center our chi" and do yoga. i would like some organic fair-trade green tea to go along with that as well...coffee gives me bad..... karma and doesnt conform with my fung shui. :roll:
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t-dog
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Nov 12, 2005, 6:32 AM
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my interest in prAna? personally or professionaly?
professionaly, none whatsoever, I'm a software dork.
personally, living in San Diego for 6 years I really enjoyed the prAna thrice-a-year blow-out sales where you could get good climbing clothes for super cheap. As a result, maybe half my wardrobe is prAna (percentage decreasing with time spent abroad) and I wear their stuff climbing and around town all the time but not for yoga, as I sweat too much during yoga. Being overseas, it is hard if not impossible to find their clothes, maybe this new deal will help with that.
The yoga thing is something that I've only really gotten into recently and many people I meet know prAna and want to try climbing "cause they were on the prAna website and saw they also had some climbing stuff". Really interesting to see it from the other point of view.
not sure if I correctly understood the question...
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t-dog
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Nov 12, 2005, 6:33 AM
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In reply to: coffee gives me bad..... karma and doesnt conform with my fung shui. :roll:
haha, no, that would be excess caffeine :lol:
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hosh
Nov 12, 2005, 6:34 AM
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t-dog,
thanks.
http://www.qwantz.com/button1.jpg
and there was nothing to really understand in the question, just wondering...
hosh.
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hosh
Nov 12, 2005, 6:37 AM
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sorry, double post.
hosh.
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jimdavis
Nov 12, 2005, 6:38 AM
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oh well, they were overpriced and trendy already.
not nearly as pissed as Columbia buying Mtn Hardware...
Jim
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blitzkrieg_climber13
Nov 12, 2005, 7:11 AM
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okay heres the deal all you haters listen. do you buy clothes because you wanna show off that you are original and climb. or do you buy clothes because they are comfortable and good looking. i bet its the later for most of us and for the people that try to look like climbers its the earlier. so everyone who is bagging on prana... STFU!!!
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euroford
Nov 12, 2005, 11:46 AM
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probobly a pretty friggin smart buy on LC's part.
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crossfit2
Nov 12, 2005, 1:43 PM
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i wear prana to climb and just bum around in but my wife who is really into yoga turned me on to a company called lululemon. I bought some pants in their san francisco store and they are great for climbing on colder days> They are pretty much all yoga centric but I hear that they will be actively marketing a climbing line. Small company made in Canada but pricey.
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roadstead
Nov 12, 2005, 2:21 PM
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In reply to: What are some US manufacturers that still make their own stuff and haven't "sold-out"? Who are some other small time gear makers are out there keeping it local? I feel bad giving money away to the overseas big boys every time I go to REI. Chris |
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t-dog
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Nov 12, 2005, 2:43 PM
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In reply to: i wear prana to climb and just bum around in but my wife who is really into yoga turned me on to a company called lululemon.
not meaning to hijack my own thread or anything, but I've seen a lot of people at my yoga studio sporting lululemon clothing (icon/symbol is an Omega). Wonder where they're getting all their stuff though.
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t-dog
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Nov 12, 2005, 2:44 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: What are some US manufacturers that still make their own stuff and haven't "sold-out"? Who are some other small time gear makers are out there keeping it local? I feel bad giving money away to the overseas big boys every time I go to REI. Chris Think VERVE :wink: |
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areyoumydude
Nov 12, 2005, 4:41 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Prana is gay. does that mean that you and prAna are going public with your relationship? :shock: :lol: hosh.
Yea, that's what I ment. :roll:
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areuinclimber
Nov 12, 2005, 4:51 PM
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just go to the thrift store and buy some khaki's then cut the crotch out (for freedom of movement) and go commando, thats what i do on summer days.
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kyote321
Nov 12, 2005, 4:53 PM
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people that buy $60 prana pants to get them thrashed at the crag, or more likely at the gym, are poseurs anyway. let liz clayborne take their money, somebody should be profiting off of stupid climbing poseurs. i only wish i had thought of it first. i'll keep rockin the cutoff jeans i orginally bought at the thrift store.
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ihategrigris
Nov 12, 2005, 5:08 PM
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My only question is whether they'll continue making gear like harnesses, or are they going to go straight to 100% clothing.
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squierbypetzl
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Nov 12, 2005, 5:38 PM
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:?
Are you sure you´re talking about prAna? They only make clothes, chalkbags, yoga stuff and accesories. Never heard of them making gear.
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climbingbetty22
Nov 12, 2005, 5:53 PM
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I know, its part of life in and I can't avoid it, and big business has allowed me to buy many of the things I have at reasonable prices. I have a TV, DVD, and stereo by Sony. A laptop by Dell and a million other stupid little things that I have been able to afford because big business has made an art of lowering prices while comittantly increasing profits.
Depsite this, big business makes me sad. The fact that Liz Claiborne bought prAna, doesn't surpirse me, but it does sadden me a bit. But hey, a bottom line is a bottome line, right? There are very few companies that manage to survive acting otherwise.
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montaniero
Nov 12, 2005, 8:58 PM
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In reply to: In case you were not aware of it, prAna is also a really big yoga clothing company.
Yoga Clothing???? What the hell is that? I thought you could practice yoga in your birthday suit..... :lol:
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james_climber
Nov 12, 2005, 11:11 PM
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it will be more expensive
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static_endurance
Nov 13, 2005, 12:09 AM
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In reply to: Mr. Charron continued: "We are pleased that prAna co-owners Beaver and Pam Theodosakis and Demian Kloer will continue to drive the Company as it is their vision and leadership that created prAna.
At least the original owners will still have some control over the product. So long as the pants are just as comfy next year, i'll be just fine with that.
As for lululemon, there's fairly large store from them near my house. Some nice looking stuff, but damn, is it ever expensive. I've only ever walked by the window though, so it could just be the stuff in the window that's expensive.
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chiho
Nov 13, 2005, 12:37 AM
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Climbing clothing is a bit lame-like trying to tell everyone "hey, look at me. I am a cool climber!" Does it really add anything that any other "freedom-of-movement" clothing doesn't? I have some PrAna pants, but they are nothing special. OK but not great quality, and I can just as easily climb in Carhartt's (although they could be lighter weight). They were a good deal at $30 at REI, but I would never pay full retail.
I go to the gym in a T-shirt and pair of soccer shorts. Same with Yoga clothing: why do you need specific clothing to practice Yoga in? Does it somehow bring you closer to the experience, or is it just another way to look and feel trendier? People who have to wear climbing or Yoga clothing to practice either of those activities need to worry less about what they are wearing and more about why they are there. That is, unless they are there simply to "be seen".
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lajhanata
Nov 13, 2005, 1:17 AM
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For all those yoga babes, I would bet it's nice to have clothes that keep the gazongas from bouncing every which way. (Nice to look at too.) But sport specific apparel is mostly about looking cool and always has been. More people buy clothes to look good in than buy them strictly for function. Prana buyers are especially guilty of that, although we like to pretend we aren't.
I don't wear Prana to do yoga in though. I have a far more functional pair of Mammut mountaineering pants with schoeller padding in all the bony areas that normally dig into the floor. They look dumb as hell (being an overly sporty mixture of tan and blue speckled in blobs of pine sap), but they are super functional- more so than any piece of Prana clothing I've ever worn.
Still, Prana makes comfy clothes if you can handle the crater in your bank account. Personally I don't think they are very good for technical pursuits, but I like kicking around in them. Sometimes I'll climb in them, but I usually opt for something a little more durable.
It would be great if this meant that Prana was getting cheaper, but I'm not holding my breath. If all the Bo-Bos would stop snatching Prana off the shelves, then maybe. But when every tag that you pull off a piece of Prana clothes is made from 100% recycled paper on an organic hemp tie (on an actual safety pin, which IS easier to remove), you kind of get the impression that Prana knows the white, healthy and wealthy crowd pretty well.
I don't really think anything good or bad is going to come out of this. Prana clothing is already less functional than North Face (though more comfortable in my opinion), and its target market hasn't been climbers (or yogi's) for a while now. Ironically, I have an old Liz Claiborne cashmere sweater that makes its way into my pack on nearly every outing, maybe there's hope.
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cmstone
Nov 13, 2005, 1:59 AM
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This thread is interesting. I used to buy alot of Prana stuff, mainly the pants for the mobility when climbing. I used to stay away from Patagonia for the same reasons that folks here are staying away from North Face, etc. However, after reading Yvon Chounard's book on Patagonia, I have done a 180. The Patagonia shirt I am wearing now is partially made of recycled plastic bottles, isn't any "trendy" style or color that will ever go out of style, and can be washed by hand, and hung up to dry without wrinkling.
Was it pricey? Yes.
Will I have it for years and years? Yes
Is it environmentally friendly? Yes
Just my 2 cents.
Chris
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kricir
Nov 13, 2005, 2:19 AM
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Damn It! climbing is becoming way too popular, They should outlaw strong ropes to keep the numbers down, The whole sport is going down the drain! :evil:
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roy_hinkley_jr
Nov 13, 2005, 2:37 AM
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It's worth noting that Prana is a close runner-up to Patagonia for Environmentally Correct. Indeed, Beaver and his crew have bent over backwards for this level of envirnomentalism--do some research. That won't change with the new ownership.
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climb_sky_high
Nov 13, 2005, 3:29 AM
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Am I alone in worrying that prAna will go the same way as the North Face? Yeah, the North Face still makes awesome clothing, but it seems that a lot more "urban" people (who probably don't have a reason to be wearing that type of clothing) are donning it these days. Maybe I'm just worried that our little trademark brands are being corrupted poseurs or something. I'm probably just being over sensitive, but I still don't like the idea of prAna being the next big urban streetwear producer.
-tara
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mped
Nov 13, 2005, 3:35 AM
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In reply to: Damn It! climbing is becoming way too popular, They should outlaw strong ropes to keep the numbers down, The whole sport is going down the drain! :evil:
I asked myself, "how did this person come to this reasoning."
Look at it this way. Prana is expected to reach sales of $30 million in 2005. What will this do? People will say 'Hey, look at that.' Alas, more competition will come into the market and we (climbers) will have a greater selection of clothing for climbing.
Now in evaluation of your reasoning. If climbing was never popular would the Cam, Climbing Shoe, Dynamic Rope, Harness, Nut, Quickdraw, Climbing Wall, etc, etc ever have come about? It's the popularity of climbing that allows new technology into the market that make climbing greater, safer, easier. If anything... Prana going public will only promote climbing into levels unseen before. And remember it's outdoor clothing, not climbing. SO if we talk specifics: you should say the "outdoor activites are going down the drain."
And lastly, who cares? Prana has one purpose: To make a profit. Good for them. I'm in college and wear Prana everyday. I've even got some climbers wearing them when not climbing. And I wear them because a) they are comfortable b) they look sweet c) when I go to buy I new pair I don't have to try em on, just grab a medium from the rack and I'm set and d) my parents pay for them.
-mped
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squierbypetzl
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Nov 13, 2005, 3:42 AM
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In reply to: If climbing was never popular would the Cam, Climbing Shoe, Dynamic Rope, Harness, Nut, Quickdraw, Climbing Wall, etc, etc ever have come about? It's the popularity of climbing that allows new technology into the market that make climbing greater, safer, easier. -mped
Just to be contrary, I´ll add that it´s really the incentive and ingenuity of climbers that have perpetuated stuff like the nut and climbing wall. You can bet that even if there were only a handful of climbers worldwide, they´d come up with ways to improve on their sport/lifestyle, not necesarrilly thinking about including non-climbers into their activity.
Like I said, I´m just being contrary. You´re point is actually quite valid.
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cracklover
Nov 13, 2005, 4:53 AM
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I don't really care if it becomes the next "urban chic". My goretex jacket is made by Columbia, and it matters to me not one whit that I see a dozen Columbia gore-tex jackets every rainy day in the city.
But for anyone who does wear prana, there is a reason to be worried: If their key market shifts from climbers (and yogis?) to yuppies, then the styles they produce will shift with them. Again - doesn't matter to me - only prana item I've ever bought was a hat. Just too pricey for me, and I don't care about the style.
GO
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litleclimberchick
Nov 13, 2005, 5:06 AM
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yuppies scare me... :(
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curt
Nov 13, 2005, 6:39 AM
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In reply to: P.S. please leave any "climbing is becoming popular and going down the drain" rants out of this thread.
Climbing is becoming popular and going down the drain. :D
Curt
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jimdavis
Nov 13, 2005, 6:59 AM
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In reply to: I can just as easily climb in Carhartt's ...
YEAH BUDDY!
Lets hear if for the Cah-haahts!!!
Damn near everyone I know in Maine that climbs, climbs in Carhartts... I'm even wearing a pair now!
Jim
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overlord
Nov 13, 2005, 8:27 AM
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i dont think itll change much.
and i prefer cassin for climbing pants anyway.
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wolfemom
Nov 13, 2005, 1:00 PM
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Dont you think the attitude of I dont want non-climbers or poseurs wearing prAna a bit elitist? What the soccer mom is wearing while sipping her latte at the local Starbucks has no effect on what is happening at your favorite crag. Who cares if she doesnt have reason to wear it? Maybe it looks good, feels comfortable, and has enough flexibility in movement to allow her to comfortably sit on the floor and play with her toddler.
I definitely agree with the sentiment of hoping their product doesnt change. I love prAna because (as a climber-poseur-yuppie-soccer mom-or whatever label others feel compelled to apply to me) I can get dressed in the morning, drop the kids off at school, go to a catechist meeting at church, run back to my sons school to volunteer in his class, go to the grocery store, and then get a bit of bouldering in before I have to pick the kids up. Then, after homework is done we can all go climb. I havent had to change clothes all day which reduces the amount of laundry I have to do - which conserves water and detergent and allows for more time to climb.
-wolfemom
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roadstead
Nov 13, 2005, 1:50 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: What are some US manufacturers that still make their own stuff and haven't "sold-out"? Who are some other small time gear makers are out there keeping it local? I feel bad giving money away to the overseas big boys every time I go to REI. Chris Think VERVE :wink: or Blurr (granted, they're from Canadia and all, but still...)
So Verve is from Canada? You better tell that to Boulder Co. I don't think they know yet! :oops:
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squierbypetzl
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Nov 14, 2005, 12:48 AM
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It´s the same "problem" with every extreme sport/lifestyle brand.
Take Billabong and Reef for example; both originally surfer oriented production lines. Then non-surfing people started buying their stuff a lot. You can´t really blame ´em, Billabong makes some damn good looking surf shorts and Reef has some really nice sandal designs, but a lot of surfers still felt that they were being robbed of a trademark within their community (and since most surfers aren´t at all territorial...). I don´t care, I´ve surfed but I can´t call myself a surfer, and I´d still buy a t-shirt if I like the print on it.
Another example are the skateboarding labels like Vans, who were only too happy to cater to the demands of a mass market. And some skaters, like some climbers now, felt that it took away from their identity.
It doesn´t matter. Let posers be posers, and fer heaven´s sake, let people wear whatever the heck they want to wear.
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docontherock
Nov 14, 2005, 1:21 AM
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My 2 cents..... climbing at J-Tree will wear out your $60 Prana's in a weekend. Carharrts however..... Anyway, it's a little known fact that the entire worlds economy, including all climbing apperall companies, is controlled by a group of five families known only as.... the pentaverum.... :shock: :shock:
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jules
Nov 14, 2005, 3:23 AM
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With regards to thrift store climbing pants:
That's great for guys, where pants are cut in a rather functional manner, but it's a whole different story for the girls (particularly at 5'4" and 90#).
My proportions prevent nearly any pair of men's or boys' pants from coming close to fitting me, and pants made for women are almost always several of the following:
-so tight your legs can spread about 10 degrees
-cut so the waist is at your tits
-huge in the butt and/or hips
-far too tight at the ankles to roll up
-dress pants (usually one or more of the above)
-athletic pants.
this is really not intended to support prana in any way. I think the prices are fugging ridiculous and disproportionate to the quality. the stuff I own was prodealed at 50% or employee-purchased at 35% off clearance. however; it DOES fit. i have to give them that.
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jamming_man
Nov 14, 2005, 5:20 AM
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In reply to: It´s the same "problem" with every extreme sport/lifestyle brand. Take Billabong and Reef for example; both originally surfer oriented production lines. Then non-surfing people started buying their stuff a lot. ...
You forgot Hollister. although....it started out aiming at non surfers...anyway...bleh.
Prana is overpriced . <==big period
There are other pants available that feel just as nice, last twice as long and are 4 times cheaper. Ross has $hit loads of stuff. I know...i know... not the most popular place for hip clothes but you can find a nice comfy pair to thrash for under fifteen bucks. ... beat that prAna. I'll give you this though... prAna does look sweet...I don't wear it cuz i can't afford it, but for those of you that can, power to you.
In My opinion, Popular culture is the drive behind this $60 pants frenzy. Not only is it just like any other pair of warm pants i've seen and owned and enjoyed greatly, i feel i'd stop respecting myself a little bit as a climber if i wear them. This is because the huge prAna logo seems to announce.." Im a climber people, please look at me and walk away in awe as you realize how badass i am" I am so used to respecting my clothes, that i could not wear a pair of pants that cost me 7.5 hours of my life to go rolling around in all sorts of $hit. I'd probably worry about every fu@king spot. :?
Id also like to say this, : The fact that Hollister and billabong are now mainstream clothing CO. no self respecting surfer will wear them.I think prAna might be heading the same way. I live in CA dude and , like totally , every surfer thrashes on those guys dude. It's hella rad.
All in all, I agree with all the people that say bussiness is business and if you think you need $60 pants to be be comfortable, go for it. The only thing i pretty much added to this thread is there is non technical outfiters clothing out there that will cost much less and do the trick just fine . <==big period
oh...sry . The thread is about Liz aquiring th CO. not the fact that its absolutely unnecessary. I guess i just dont care. ...Good for her!
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t-dog
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Nov 14, 2005, 5:35 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: What are some US manufacturers that still make their own stuff and haven't "sold-out"? Who are some other small time gear makers are out there keeping it local? I feel bad giving money away to the overseas big boys every time I go to REI. Chris Think VERVE :wink: or Blurr (granted, they're from Canadia and all, but still...) So Verve is from Canada? You better tell that to Boulder Co. I don't think they know yet! :oops: |
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lajhanata
Nov 14, 2005, 4:35 PM
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There's a lot of talk about yuppies who don't climb being posers. For me it seems the opposite. Lots of other people wearing the same clothes I do will make me seem like less of a poser. I think the people that are afraid of their trademark brands going mainstream because it has an effect on their identity are the real posers here. I'd just as soon people didn't know I climbed. I don't think people are paying that close of attention anyway.
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rockkid55
Nov 14, 2005, 4:46 PM
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I hope they come out with a line of funny print-tees.
Hmm....
"Climbers Like It On The Rocks"
"Climb On You Crazy Diamond"
"I Heart Climber Boys"
"I Heart Climber Girls"
"Kiss Me, I'm A Climber!"
sweeeet.
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cfnubbler
Nov 14, 2005, 5:04 PM
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In reply to: What are some US manufacturers that still make their own stuff and haven't "sold-out"?
Wild Things. Pure function for people that actually climb, made in NH. Not really the same market as cragging / yoga clothes, but for winter and alpine climbing clothing, they are FAN-FREAKIN' TASTIC. Superb climbing packs too.
-Nubbler
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rock_ninja
Nov 14, 2005, 5:07 PM
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And lastly, who cares? Prana has one purpose: To make a profit. Good for them. I'm in college and wear Prana everyday. I've even got some climbers wearing them when not climbing. And I wear them because a) they are comfortable b) they look sweet c) when I go to buy I new pair I don't have to try em on, just grab a medium from the rack and I'm set and d) my parents pay for them.
OK, Except for the "my parents pay for it" part, good call. Listen you've got to wear something on your ass. I have done the thrift store thing for years and years, but suddenly, i was thrust into adulthood and a job that i love, which requires me to wear decent clothing. So why not support a company who is dedicated to all the things that represent my ethics- such as Patagonia and prAna? Would you rather shop at the Gap or Banana Republic? Prana and Patagonia clothes have better design and fit, and are pretty comparable in price, with a much better business model and community ethic.
Also, you never have to pay full price for stuff, and if you do, you're a tool.
Finally, you don't have to fully play into the corporate culture when you buy brands like these. When I climb, I stop by the local outfitters- big favs of mine are Rock and Snow (I think that's the name of it) in New Paltz at The Gunks and Waterstone at The New River Gorge. They're almost always having a sale on something. This weekend, I stopped into Waterstone at the New River Gorge-- fantiastic local shop, having a sale. These are often the stores that are affiliated with the local access funds and have all the good beta on climbing, and it's worth our supporting them to see that stuff stay around.
Listen, like it or not, we're all materialistic. So just be conscious about how you consume, and you can avoid the whole white guilt thing that so many of you chastising the bobo/prAna wearing crowds seem to have. Get over it, wear some awesome clothes and most importantly go and climb!
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hosh
Nov 15, 2005, 12:39 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I can just as easily climb in Carhartt's ... YEAH BUDDY! Lets hear if for the Cah-haahts!!! Damn near everyone I know in Maine that climbs, climbs in Carhartts... I'm even wearing a pair now! Jim
yup. lots of AK climbers in carhartts. that's what I climb in almost all the time.
hosh.
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hosh
Nov 15, 2005, 1:03 AM
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In reply to: Dont you think the attitude of I dont want non-climbers or poseurs wearing prAna a bit elitist? -wolfemom
I can see it now...
some where, on another thread on www.industrialworkers.com, some one is ranting about how
"Climbers are starting to wear Carhartts!! don't they know that Carhartts are 'work' pants, not climbing pants?!?!"
and in another fourm, on www.vintagestyle.com,
"I just heard a climber saying that he gets his climbing pants from the thrift store! The nerve! don't they know that thrift store shopping is only for the super hip vintage crowd? Man, how lame..."
And on www.yuppies.com, there's this thread about,
"Man, Liz Clairborne finally bought prAna. Those Climbers and yogis were starting to think that prAna was making clothes for them! It's about time that our clothing company is owned by our people..."
and here we are in our little Narcissistic RC.com world, thinking that prAna is "our" company...
hosh.
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crimpstrength
Nov 15, 2005, 1:18 AM
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The article said prana was in debt, something like 1.9 million dollars. If someone didn't take it, what are the chances of it surviving anyway?
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rvega
Nov 15, 2005, 1:23 AM
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In reply to: oh well, they were overpriced and trendy already. not nearly as pissed as Columbia buying Mtn Hardware... Jim
No wonder my new tent's not as good as the first one I got some 10 years ago. Crap.
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roy_hinkley_jr
Nov 15, 2005, 1:45 AM
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In reply to: The article said prana was in debt, something like 1.9 million dollars. If someone didn't take it, what are the chances of it surviving anyway?
Umm, they sold for $34 million and turned down higher offers because Liz was a better fit, so to speak. Prana was doing fine and will continue to do even better.
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toml
Nov 16, 2005, 1:58 PM
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In reply to: The article said prana was in debt, something like 1.9 million dollars. If someone didn't take it, what are the chances of it surviving anyway?
Liz C paid $32.5m for 60% of the initial valuation, implying the value of the company was somewhere around $50+ million. That's like saying that those people were lucky to sell that $500,000 house because it was 'in debt' for $19,000. You know, like a $19,000 mortgage.
What is the interest rate on debt now? $1.9m at, say, 10% interest, which is a lot, would be $190,000 a year.
I clicked further on the article to find Liz C's financials and they have a 6.68% profit margin. Assuming that's a typical profit margin on clothes, and that prAna is similar and has nearly $30m in sales like the article says, that would mean prAna makes $2m in profit after taxes every year. ($6 on a $90 pair of pants.) So they could easily afford to pay the interest, even if their profitability is way lower than Liz Claiborne's.
How many climbers out there make $50m doing something related to climbing? Shouldn't we be celebrating the fact that SOMEBODY did it - it's possible? Otherwise, considering how little most of us make trying to make money in climbing, it would be a lost cause.
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kyote321
Nov 16, 2005, 2:19 PM
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'How many climbers out there make $50m doing something related to climbing? Shouldn't we be celebrating the fact that SOMEBODY did it - it's possible?'
prana isn't climbing, or even oga, it is about putting a strategically placed tag in the small o four butt so people will look at it and know that our butt is worth at least $60, at least today.
wanna invest in climbing companies? buy stock in 'tastey bite.'
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climbjunk
Nov 16, 2005, 2:53 PM
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If you want some down to earth clothing still owned by real climber(s): BUY VERVE!!
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rock_ninja
Nov 16, 2005, 3:54 PM
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In reply to: 'How many climbers out there make $50m doing something related to climbing? Shouldn't we be celebrating the fact that SOMEBODY did it - it's possible?' prana isn't climbing, or even oga, it is about putting a strategically placed tag in the small o four butt so people will look at it and know that our butt is worth at least $60, at least today. wanna invest in climbing companies? buy stock in 'tastey bite.'
Do you mean those Indian food pouches? This is the most brilliant idea ever. I swear, they've raised my climbing three grades.
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landgolier
Nov 16, 2005, 4:05 PM
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In reply to: 'How many climbers out there make $50m doing something related to climbing? Shouldn't we be celebrating the fact that SOMEBODY did it - it's possible?' prana isn't climbing, or even oga, it is about putting a strategically placed tag in the small o four butt so people will look at it and know that our butt is worth at least $60, at least today. wanna invest in climbing companies? buy stock in 'tastey bite.'
DING! We have a winner.
I love the people who are like, "I can't find anything else that's comfortable that provides enough freedom of movement blah blah blah." If only someone made loose fitting cotton pants with tighter ankles to keep you from stepping on them when edging, and made them in a variety of weights and colors, and sold them for like $8 at every walmart, dollar store, target, sports authority, and old navy in the universe. I bet they could call them....SWEAT PANTS!
Oh, and if you think the ecological practices of a consumer products company matter for anything other than marketing and soothing the yuppie egos of the consumer, you're a dumbass.
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kyote321
Nov 16, 2005, 4:14 PM
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'Do you mean those Indian food pouches? This is the most brilliant idea ever. I swear, they've raised my climbing three grades. '
word. wanna feel good about waht you buy while climbing and pay 1.38 (trader ho's price), then buy tastey bite, straight from 'poor people' in india. keeps ya regular on a road trip too. feel bad about throwign the metal puch away, but oh well.
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taraclimb
Nov 16, 2005, 5:08 PM
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First, Prana IS trendy. When people start getting tattoos of the Prana logo, it's officially a trend (and yes.. I've seen it).
But the clothes are comfortable and they look decent. (Which is more than I can say for some climbing brands)
If Clairborne doesn't change the comfort and durability of the clothes, it may be a good thing. Prana clothes may become more affordable for climbers.
Until then, I can't bring myself to pay $80 for a pair of pants I'm going to rip on the rock.. so it's back to the sales rack for me..
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angry
Nov 16, 2005, 5:18 PM
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Grammicci
Prana
North Face
A5
Metolius
Black Diamond
All are brands I've never seen the value in owning. My Kavu's ($20) are sporting patches after a really fucking hard year for them. I finally blew out my Carharts ($18 on sale) this month after several years, but it took "The Sender" to do it. Both are far thicker than anything Prana makes, and a wee bit cheaper.
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localshredder
Nov 16, 2005, 5:58 PM
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The Owner of Prana, also owns No Fear And Spy Optic. He doesn't care about climbing he cares about money.
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rock_ninja
Nov 16, 2005, 6:22 PM
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In reply to: 'Do you mean those Indian food pouches? This is the most brilliant idea ever. I swear, they've raised my climbing three grades. ' word. wanna feel good about waht you buy while climbing and pay 1.38 (trader ho's price), then buy tastey bite, straight from 'poor people' in india. keeps ya regular on a road trip too. feel bad about throwign the metal puch away, but oh well.
I actually like to eat tasty bite while wearing praNa- the sweatshop street version of prAna.
Seriously, I wear prAna; I never pay full price for it, and I love it. I mix and match em with my trendy thrift store clothes- yep, that's right. All you kids who ostensibly eschew the trendiness of prAna are really just another form of trend follower. Just get over it, put on some clothes, eat some tasty bite and climb!
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rock_ninja
Nov 16, 2005, 6:27 PM
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In reply to: Grammicci Prana North Face A5 Metolius Black Diamond All are brands I've never seen the value in owning. My Kavu's ($20) are sporting patches after a really f---ing hard year for them. I finally blew out my Carharts ($18 on sale) this month after several years, but it took "The Sender" to do it. Both are far thicker than anything Prana makes, and a wee bit cheaper.
So do you climb without cams? Metolius and BD make some of the best trad gear out there, and you never hear trad climbers walking around saying "Oh, that guy with the #4 Camalot is just such a poser".
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amedee
Nov 16, 2005, 6:45 PM
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anybody know when the winter sale will be?
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jumaringjeff
Nov 16, 2005, 6:50 PM
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I could care less.
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keinangst
Nov 16, 2005, 6:59 PM
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The best way to be identified as a hardcore climber is to climb hardcore.
You wouldn't peg me as a harcore internet-poster-guy from looking at me right now, but these words, friend?---these words speak for themselves.
Type on, brothers and sisters.
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keinangst
Nov 16, 2005, 7:17 PM
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In reply to: I could care less.
Go ahead, because I surely couldn't...
;)
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gnarled_hands
Nov 16, 2005, 10:48 PM
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I remember a few years ago, people didn't know too much about prana that weren't climbers. You'd see someone wearing it and you'd get the Tyler Durden nod and move along. Now days, I see soccer moms and sorority girls wearing it (the latter is ok).
I say verve or carhartt....until carhart is bought out by weld-everything Inc.
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angry
Nov 16, 2005, 11:15 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Grammicci Prana North Face A5 Metolius Black Diamond All are brands I've never seen the value in owning. My Kavu's ($20) are sporting patches after a really f---ing hard year for them. I finally blew out my Carharts ($18 on sale) this month after several years, but it took "The Sender" to do it. Both are far thicker than anything Prana makes, and a wee bit cheaper. So do you climb without cams? Metolius and BD make some of the best trad gear out there, and you never hear trad climbers walking around saying "Oh, that guy with the #4 Camalot is just such a poser".
A truly stupid statement cock_ninja. This thread is about clothing, not cams. Although I do not think that BD cams are worth it and I prefer Aliens over Metolius. Let's hear it for Mr. Reading Comprehension.
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rock_ninja
Nov 17, 2005, 2:27 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Grammicci Prana North Face A5 Metolius Black Diamond All are brands I've never seen the value in owning. My Kavu's ($20) are sporting patches after a really f---ing hard year for them. I finally blew out my Carharts ($18 on sale) this month after several years, but it took "The Sender" to do it. Both are far thicker than anything Prana makes, and a wee bit cheaper. So do you climb without cams? Metolius and BD make some of the best trad gear out there, and you never hear trad climbers walking around saying "Oh, that guy with the #4 Camalot is just such a poser". A truly stupid statement cock_ninja. This thread is about clothing, not cams. Although I do not think that BD cams are worth it and I prefer Aliens over Metolius. Let's hear it for Mr. Reading Comprehension.
Genus, you said brands, not clothing, and as those brands are about more than just clothes, your post is more than a little myopic. Cock_ninja, very clever- I like that. SInce I'm a girl, I will definitely be taking that as a compliment. Thank you!
I just had tasty bite for breakfast.
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nikegirl
Nov 17, 2005, 2:33 PM
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shut up!?!?
wow.
everyone is becoming aquired...
odd.
~T
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notch
Nov 17, 2005, 2:45 PM
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In reply to: it will be more expensive
Why would it be more expensive? LC has huge economies of scale in their textile purchasing, warehousing and distribution. Not to mention that Prana can consolidate all of their back office into LC's and save payroll. Price will go down or at least remain the same.
Nice job everyone for bashing this company. Imagine the thought, being in business to make money! Hey, if you draw a paycheck send me your address so I can come to your house and bash you in the mouth with a 2X4. I guess you're a sell out too.
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cedk
Nov 17, 2005, 3:04 PM
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In reply to: Cock_ninja, very clever- I like that. SInce I'm a girl, I will definitely be taking that as a compliment. Thank you! I just had tasty bite for breakfast.
Uh...
You're still talking about the food packets right?
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rock_ninja
Nov 17, 2005, 3:18 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Cock_ninja, very clever- I like that. SInce I'm a girl, I will definitely be taking that as a compliment. Thank you! I just had tasty bite for breakfast. Uh... You're still talking about the food packets right?
Blush!!! What are you insinuating!
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iltripp
Nov 17, 2005, 3:28 PM
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In reply to: I remember a few years ago, people didn't know too much about prana that weren't climbers. You'd see someone wearing it and you'd get the Tyler Durden nod and move along. Now days, I see soccer moms and sorority girls wearing it (the latter is ok).
The tyler durden nod over prana?? :?
Was this all taking place at the climbing gym?
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landgolier
Nov 17, 2005, 3:33 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: it will be more expensive Why would it be more expensive? LC has huge economies of scale in their textile purchasing, warehousing and distribution. Not to mention that Prana can consolidate all of their back office into LC's and save payroll. Price will go down or at least remain the same. Nice job everyone for bashing this company. Imagine the thought, being in business to make money! Hey, if you draw a paycheck send me your address so I can come to your house and bash you in the mouth with a 2X4. I guess you're a sell out too.
Nobody bagged on them for making money, just making stuff that sucks and selling it for too much. Selling overpriced shit to yuppies is the world's most reliable business model, just look at starbucks.
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dynosore
Nov 17, 2005, 3:53 PM
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Why does everyone assume that someone they see at the mall in (fill in your favorite outdoor brand) is a yuppie poseur? Does it make you feel superior somehow? If you saw me pull up to the Starbucks in my Porsche and get out with my H/H jacket on I'm sure you'd assume I must be a poseur. Nevermind that I've had that jacket on while roughing it in the northwoods of Canada, on fishing boats in Alaska, climbing all over, chopping wood, gutting a deer, etc. I'm not a real climber/outdoorperson like you. Nevermind that I've been climbing/fishing/hiking/hunting longer than alot of you have been alive. Don't judge a book by it's cover.
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superbum
Nov 17, 2005, 4:08 PM
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In reply to: just go to the thrift store and buy some khaki's then cut the crotch out (for freedom of movement) and go commando, thats what i do on summer days.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
so, Sharma and all those Stronglings are sponsered by Liz Claiborne now??? hahaha.
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pjphel
Nov 17, 2005, 4:24 PM
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I am totally disappointed. How could liz clairborne sell out like this? If the softness of my mother and grandmother's sweater sets are compromised, or if their suits lose that professional, yet "to young to wear a suit" look, I going to be real pissed. I say Prana, mind your own business and leave these giant multi-million dollar businesses alone already. If we let this happen, when will is stop. How many mom and pop stores have to put local wallmarts out of business until we do something.
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landgolier
Nov 17, 2005, 4:27 PM
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Dude, I don't want to attack you personally here, but your argument is basically, "Don't call me a yuppie poser, dammit, I'm a weekend warrior." Which is fine, most of us are weekend warriors, I've done a lot of carzy shit outdoors in a lot of places involving everything from ropes to guns to skis, but when you get down to it I'm still a software designer 5 days a week. I don't care what kind of gear anybody runs, I'm just saying this whole industry is built on selling crap to yuppies (like us). Hell, if I could think up a good product to sell to yuppies I'd be doing it right now. Prana is just the most extreme example because their stuff totally sucks, it totally unneccessary, and costs a shitton of money.
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kahuna3602
Nov 17, 2005, 4:46 PM
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Liz Clairborne buys Prana, well that cuts my breath short for sure. The world is going to hell in a hand basket. Well at least Verve hasn't sold out yet. Thank you Christian!
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dynosore
Nov 17, 2005, 5:01 PM
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landgolier, sounds like we agree after all. And Prana is very overpriced for what it is. Carhart climbing, now that's more like it!
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notch
Nov 17, 2005, 5:18 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: it will be more expensive Why would it be more expensive? LC has huge economies of scale in their textile purchasing, warehousing and distribution. Not to mention that Prana can consolidate all of their back office into LC's and save payroll. Price will go down or at least remain the same. Nice job everyone for bashing this company. Imagine the thought, being in business to make money! Hey, if you draw a paycheck send me your address so I can come to your house and bash you in the mouth with a 2X4. I guess you're a sell out too. Nobody bagged on them for making money, just making stuff that sucks and selling it for too much. Selling overpriced s--- to yuppies is the world's most reliable business model, just look at starbucks.
Nobody bagged on them for "selling out"? Read back! As for Prana being overpriced, Prana is probably closer to underpriced. If it were OVERpriced, no one would buy it. As it stands right now, the stuff doesn't stay on the racks. I'm well aware that many climbers feel that it is too expensive for them, but that doesn't qualify as overpriced.
I don't know why I'm so wound up about this, I don't even own any!
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keinangst
Nov 17, 2005, 5:23 PM
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In other news, anyone wanna buy some of my Chinese, machine-made, organic* brand of pants from pIrAna?
It has TWO capital letters. That is better than one.
*carbon-based
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skateman
Nov 17, 2005, 5:28 PM
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I hope Liz doesn't stop making prana climbing shorts! Which for me (5'5") are really capris! Prana is defintely overpriced! I only buy it when itis 40% off.
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acacongua
Nov 17, 2005, 5:56 PM
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In reply to: personally, living in San Diego for 6 years I really enjoyed the prAna thrice-a-year blow-out sales where you could get good climbing clothes for super cheap. As a result, maybe half my wardrobe is prAna (percentage decreasing with time spent abroad) and I wear their stuff climbing and around town all the time but not for yoga, as I sweat too much during yoga. Being overseas, it is hard if not impossible to find their clothes, maybe this new deal will help with that.
What I would give for that store in this area. Are you the one with all the Prana on Ebay?
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stevep
Nov 17, 2005, 6:02 PM
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I would say that Prana is overpriced. The stuff I have I didn't pay full price for and wouldn't. But I also wouldn't say it sucks. The build quality has generally been pretty good and the styling nice.
There are certainly times when I prefer a lightweight, loose set of Prana pants to jeans or Carhartts. They move better and not all climbing requires thrashing up approaches and into abrasive Vedauwoo offwidths. I see people wearing Carhartt in the gym or in relatively warm boldering weather, and they are making just as stupid a statement.
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kimmyt
Nov 17, 2005, 6:19 PM
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In reply to: I hope Liz doesn't stop making prana climbing shorts! Which for me (5'5") are really capris! Prana is defintely overpriced! I only buy it when itis 40% off.
Which brings up another very important question. Will the Liz Claiborne Outlet Store now be selling prAna stuff? Cause that would be the only way I could afford to buy it anyway.
LIZ I KNOW YOU'RE READING THIS. PUT PRANA STUFF IN YOUR FRANKLIN MILLS OUTLET STORE OKAY THX
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wolfemom
Nov 17, 2005, 10:20 PM
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In reply to: If it were OVERpriced, no one would buy it. As it stands right now, the stuff doesn't stay on the racks. I'm well aware that many climbers feel that it is too expensive for them, but that doesn't qualify as overpriced.
WOO HOO for the dude who knows his economics!! I assume that those ripping on prAna buyers don't really mean to be so...well...intolerant, disparaging and condemnatory to their fellow climbers. But it really does come off that way.
I spend the money of prAna because I can. I imagine others are in the same boat. Yeah, the pants are $70 and when wearing them climbing I risk thrashing a pair of $70 pants. But I definitely get $70 worth of utility (economics term worth knowing) from getting dressed in the morning, looking nice enough to go to church or shopping at Nordstrom (*gasp*), being comfortable enough to sit on the floor while helping a spelling group in my kids 2nd grade class, and then ready to climb from 4pm-8pm. This is my life as I live it and prAna happens to accommodate MANY of my needs. I am grateful to have found something that actually fits, feels comfortable, looks nice, and is climbable. I gladly pay full retail and we can quite easily afford it. Does that make me less of a climber? I can give you a whole list of better reasons for judging me as a "poser" or not a "real" climber (I only sport lead 5.9s and I refuse to climb trad.) But if you are making that judgment based on the clothes I wear or my ability to pay for them - then that is WAY shallow.
Just to clarify, notch - all of the "you"s in the preceding paragraph were, of course, not referring to you.
I only hope that prAna breaks into the girls or juniors market because it is not easy finding school worthy, climbable, appropriate clothing for my nine year old. Thank goodness she is sensible and thinks that the fashions marketed to girls her age are ridiculously impractical.
-wolfemom
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landgolier
Nov 17, 2005, 10:31 PM
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The "I totally paid attention in econ for like 5 minutes" quote wasn't mine, I think you misedited the quoted portion. Anyway, like I said, I don't care what gear anybody runs, but prana is a $20 pair of pants with a $40-60 logo on them. If that doesn't affect your bottom line, have fun in them, life's too short. Me, I look at a $60 pair of pants and go, "man, I should really pick up a max cam"
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raymondjeffrey
Nov 17, 2005, 10:38 PM
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I'm confused. First Prana is owned by an American person or persons correct? And doesn't America enjoy a capilistic form of economic business? The answers to the aformentioned are 'yes'. So, good for Prana.
Also, you have to wear a specific brand or style of clothes to roll around and stretch on the floor while smelling 'Earthy' candles in the dark?
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iltripp
Nov 17, 2005, 10:55 PM
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In reply to: I'm confused. First Prana is owned by an American person or persons correct? And doesn't America enjoy a capilistic form of economic business? The answers to the aformentioned are 'yes'. So, good for Prana.
So are you saying that a smaller company being bought by a larger company is always a good thing? If so, than in what way?
Does the above have to occur to be "capitilistic"? To be American?
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wolfemom
Nov 17, 2005, 10:58 PM
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In reply to: The "I totally paid attention in econ for like 5 minutes" quote wasn't mine, I think you misedited the quoted portion.
Thanks for the heads up on the misquote. I edited my post.
-wolfemom (who wishes she was wearing prAna and climbing right now but sadly is nursing her daughter through strep throat and hasn't been able to climb for more than two hours in almost two weeks and is now desperately hoping the new antibiotic will work so that she can stop spending so much time on the computer and go CLIMB)
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jl
Nov 18, 2005, 1:02 AM
Post #106 of 112
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In reply to: The Owner of Prana, also owns No Fear And Spy Optic. He doesn't care about climbing he cares about money.
I have climbed with Beaver, the founder of prAna for over 13 years- so the following is not hear say but fact. Beaver's passion for climbing is the same passion that has grown prAna from his garage to a world renowned brand. Beaver does not have a lot of free time to climb (he works 60 - 70 hours a week) but when he gets out, he is super motivated and brings great energy to the crags. He truly cares about the outdoors as well as the climbing community, prAna's actions prove that. And yes, the 47 year old father of two can lead 5.12 and boulder V6 on any given day.
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hosh
Nov 18, 2005, 1:06 AM
Post #107 of 112
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Grammicci Prana North Face A5 Metolius Black Diamond All are brands I've never seen the value in owning. My Kavu's ($20) are sporting patches after a really f---ing hard year for them. I finally blew out my Carharts ($18 on sale) this month after several years, but it took "The Sender" to do it. Both are far thicker than anything Prana makes, and a wee bit cheaper. So do you climb without cams? Metolius and BD make some of the best trad gear out there, and you never hear trad climbers walking around saying "Oh, that guy with the #4 Camalot is just such a poser". A truly stupid statement cock_ninja. This thread is about clothing, not cams. Although I do not think that BD cams are worth it and I prefer Aliens over Metolius. Let's hear it for Mr. Reading Comprehension.
So, um, if it's all about clotihng, then why bring Metolius into it? they're not a clothing brand. Sure, they sell t-shirts and hoodies, but so does Dutch Brothers Coffee. That doesn't make them a clothing company...
http://www.dutchbros.com/
http://costore.com/...ar/catthumbnails.asp
hosh.
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raymondjeffrey
Nov 18, 2005, 1:08 AM
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Methinks that the word 'always' is a relative term. We can all think of some exception to established economic mores, but in our current system business mergers often result in new and improved products for the consumer(s). Couple mergers with good ol' fashioned competition and products can't help but to evolve into better products and services for the consumers.
The innovation of the Prana owners were rewarded when Liz Claiborne offered to purchase their existing business with a price that they deemed acceptable.
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iltripp
Nov 18, 2005, 2:26 AM
Post #109 of 112
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In reply to: Couple mergers with good ol' fashioned competition and products can't help but to evolve into better products and services for the consumers.
Really... they can't help it, can they?
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thegreytradster
Nov 18, 2005, 3:11 AM
Post #110 of 112
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In reply to: In reply to: The Owner of Prana, also owns No Fear And Spy Optic. He doesn't care about climbing he cares about money. I have climbed with Beaver, the founder of prAna for over 13 years- so the following is not hear say but fact. Beaver's passion for climbing is the same passion that has grown prAna from his garage to a world renowned brand. Beaver does not have a lot of free time to climb (he works 60 - 70 hours a week) but when he gets out, he is super motivated and brings great energy to the crags. He truly cares about the outdoors as well as the climbing community, prAna's actions prove that. And yes, the 47 year old father of two can lead 5.12 and boulder V6 on any given day.
Hope you get a piece of the action Jeff. :wink:
No more lumpy water buisiness?
I shouldn' be suprised at the rampant jealosy over the sucess of others. Just the nature of the beasts. But still disheartening.
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wonderwoman
Nov 18, 2005, 6:35 PM
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In reply to: I feel bad giving money away to the overseas big boys every time I go to REI.
Amen to that!
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pico23
Nov 20, 2005, 11:07 PM
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In reply to: For those of you who missed the press release, here it is: http://biz.yahoo.com/...03/nyth247.html?.v=2 So what do the RC.com pundits make of this? Do you guys think that we'll be seeing any change in prAna products for the better or for the worst? Will it simply mean that we'll be able to find them elsewhere than just REI and climbing stores? What do you guys think? P.S. please leave any "climbing is becoming popular and going down the drain" rants out of this thread.
Honestly who cares. I never found Prana to be amazing. I buy my cragging clothing at Target. I couldn't care less if my $9 coolmax t-shirt says pro spirit and not some fancy name. last just as long (or not long enough) and keeps me comfy.
For the winter I venture into name brand gear. but only to the point that it gets the job done.
If two mountaineering shells fit similarly and function the same I consider you an idiot for spending $200 more for the "better" name.
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