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cracklover
Feb 17, 2006, 10:37 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: 2. Rappelling scares me. I'm sorry, it just does. Me too, and I detest having to let go of the rope with one hand to fiddle with anything, like cleaning draws -- even if the terrain is vertical and the route goes straight up and down. If the route traverses or overhangs, it just makes it all the worse. Jay Well if you were really concerned, you could go with a device like the TRE Sirius. Not that you should (after all, you are in Rome), but it's a perfectly valid option. GO You expect me to sport climb with a rap device the size and weight of a small frying pan attached to my harness? Not! Jay
Hahahaha! C'mon, Jay, you expect me to believe that you don't walk around in real life with a blackberry, a pager, a leatherman, and a scientific calculator on your belt? Just consider the TRE a nerd-accessory. The ladies just love it, and it won't get caught on an outcrop of rock and rip your head off when you fall, like the nylon neck strap on the flash memory card you carry when you climb now. Damn, though, 2 gig? That is a cool one .
GO
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healyje
Feb 17, 2006, 11:45 PM
Post #127 of 161
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A slight thread drift here, but I have to admit to hating rapping as well, particularly with loads. Below is what I did to get over that and anyone replacing or setting anchors might be interested...
On our anchor replacement project working with an 80-90lb bag I learned to really love the Petzl Shunt - typically considered the ugly duckling of descending devices. I use it with a CMI figure-8 that I extended by girth-hitching it with two short 12" WC dynemma slings (nested and sport taped them in place). To use the setup I put the Shunt directly on my belay loop wit a locker; then clip one of the Figure-8 dynemma slings into the belay loop above the Shunt with another locker. I then take the other Figure-8 dynemma sling down and clip it to the haul bag with a draw made with lockers. This rig is really sweet to operate, safe to the point of breathing easy, and keeps the load off me which allows me to work in relative comfort.
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weschrist
Feb 17, 2006, 11:55 PM
Post #128 of 161
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In reply to: I had to read through six pages of PTPP-like "better way" BS before one of you sporttards would admit the truth.
excellent logic... search X pages until you find the answer that fits your belief system... then claim you found an expression of the truth. Are you a Seventh Day Adventist by chance?
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weschrist
Feb 18, 2006, 12:01 AM
Post #129 of 161
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In reply to: Okay, that's bad logic. 1 top rope lower = 1 sport lead lower. One lower per party? So only one of you climbs it? And the same party would do 10 laps on toperope? If you're against toproping on the anchors, then you're against lowering too, whether you think you are or not.
A group of 5 gumbies all taking turns draggin each other up the climb with the rope through the anchors wears the anchors out way more than 5 people all LEADING the route and lowering off QUICKDRAWS until the last person in the group threads the anchors and is lowered to clean the rest of the draws from the route.
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outdoorsie
Feb 18, 2006, 12:04 AM
Post #130 of 161
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In reply to: On our anchor replacement project working with an 80-90lb bag I learned to really love the Petzl Shunt - typically considered the ugly duckling of descending devices. I use it with a CMI figure-8 that I extended by girth-hitching it with two short 12" WC dynemma slings ( nested and sport taped them in place). To use the setup I put the Shunt directly on my belay loop wit a locker; then clip one of the Figure-8 dynemma slings into the belay loop above the Shunt with another locker. I then take the other Figure-8 dynemma sling down and clip it to the haul bag with a draw made with lockers. This rig is really sweet to operate, safe to the point of breathing easy, and keeps the load off me which allows me to work in relative comfort.
You put the shunt *below* the rap device? Weird. My "trad mentor" (or whatever you want to call him) loved his Petzl shunt. He spent years trying to convince me to buy one instead of just using the prussik. But he always used it above the rap device. I'm having trouble picturing your way...
Also, has anybody pointed out how nasty it is for your rope sheath to be run through dirty, rusty, sand encrusted chains? My rope is expensive. I want it to last as long as possible. I try my best to never run it weighted across anything (yes, even steal chains) that sits outside for years and years.
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healyje
Feb 18, 2006, 1:09 AM
Post #131 of 161
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In reply to: You put the shunt *below* the rap device? Weird. My "trad mentor" (or whatever you want to call him) loved his Petzl shunt. He spent years trying to convince me to buy one instead of just using the prussik. But he always used it above the rap device. I'm having trouble picturing your way...
Absolutely! It's supposed to be a backup to the primary rappel device and putting it above your rap device causes several problems with using it smoothly. Here's the party line on it below, but I tried it in numerous configurations and believe me, you want that sucker tight to your belay loop and your rappel device extended well above it. Now that I have a system and flow with it I can barely remember doing anything else. The shunt also works with both single and double ropes and when rapping with dissimilar sized ropes from 8-11mm. Who knew the ugly little sucker could actually be so handy. I'll post some pics when I get a chance...
In reply to: A mechanical replacement for self-jamming knots (Prussik, Machard...). Positioned below a descender, the Shunt acts as a back-up belay for an abseil descent. It locks onto the rope as soon as you release it and follows your descent when you press on it. |
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dingus
Feb 18, 2006, 1:19 AM
Post #132 of 161
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In reply to: Well if you were really concerned, you could go with a device like the TRE Sirius. Not that you should (after all, you are in Rome), but it's a perfectly valid option. GO
Actually I'll continue to lower off. Problem solved.
DMT
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dudemanbu
Feb 18, 2006, 1:26 AM
Post #133 of 161
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So Wes, you're saying that your group of 5 gumbies can't toprope off draws on the anchors?
In reply to: A group of 5 gumbies all taking turns draggin each other up the climb with the rope through the anchors wears the anchors out way more than 5 people all LEADING the route and lowering off QUICKDRAWS until the last person in the group threads the anchors and is lowered to clean the rest of the draws from the route. |
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weschrist
Feb 18, 2006, 1:31 AM
Post #134 of 161
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In reply to: So Wes, you're saying that your group of 5 gumbies can't toprope off draws on the anchors? In reply to: A group of 5 gumbies all taking turns draggin each other up the climb with the rope through the anchors wears the anchors out way more than 5 people all LEADING the route and lowering off QUICKDRAWS until the last person in the group threads the anchors and is lowered to clean the rest of the draws from the route.
read the bold... come on man, wtf. this topic is about toproping out of ANCHORS, not draws.
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fracture
Feb 18, 2006, 2:55 AM
Post #135 of 161
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It is sport climbing. The gear is there for your convenience and for you to abuse. It will be replaced when it is worn out. Lowering is preferable to rappelling for improved safety, but if rappelling floats your boat, go right ahead---just don't "correct" people who actually know what they are doing.
Regarding the issue the OP was talking about: sometimes there are good reasons to TR through the anchor. For example, you may want to allow someone who does not know how to clean, or who may not make it to the top of the route, to give the thing a hangdog session on TR. The only reason I would generally prefer to run it through draws at the top is that it is a heck of a lot easier to slap draws into the anchor than it is clip in and rethread the rope, and I am really, really lazy.
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cracklover
Feb 18, 2006, 4:12 AM
Post #136 of 161
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In reply to: In reply to: Well if you were really concerned, you could go with a device like the TRE Sirius. Not that you should (after all, you are in Rome), but it's a perfectly valid option. GO Actually I'll continue to lower off. Problem solved. DMT
Jay said he was nervous about rapping and futzing at the same time. I suggested a solution, knowing full well it was a solution to a problem he has no interest in solving. But hey, if he wants to throw a straw man out there, I'm willing to knock it down for him.
Like I said - you're in Rome. Do as Romans. Fine by me.
GO
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cracklover
Feb 18, 2006, 4:20 AM
Post #137 of 161
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In reply to: In reply to: I had to read through six pages of PTPP-like "better way" BS before one of you sporttards would admit the truth. excellent logic... search X pages until you find the answer that fits your belief system... then claim you found an expression of the truth. Are you a Seventh Day Adventist by chance?
Come on, man. Plenty of people are saying that they don't want to rap, even in situations where they know it's no harder to get off via rapping. Even admitting that it puts more wear on the anchors. Most don't set out to do things they think don't make sense. So why do they *never* rap? Because they can't rap! They don't have a device with them to make it feasible. If you start with the premise that you're not going to rap, then there's no reason to bring anything but a gri-gri with you when you head to the crag. Voila - you can't rap even in cases where it's arguably a better choice.
Humans have a funny tendency to make up reasons to justify actions they're already going to take.
GO
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dingus
Feb 18, 2006, 4:41 AM
Post #138 of 161
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In reply to: Humans have a funny tendency to make up reasons to justify actions they're already going to take. GO
Nice troll. You're going to have to get someone else to respond to your 'kick me' sign buddy. I happen to like you and respect your opinion so we'll just leave it alone.
Have a great weekend. Looks like we're getting the pow tonight, off to shred with Angus in the morning.
DMT
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kalcario
Feb 18, 2006, 5:32 AM
Post #139 of 161
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In reply to: Voila - you can't rap even in cases where it's arguably a better choice. Humans have a funny tendency to make up reasons to justify actions they're already going to take.
It is almost never a better choice to rappel rather than lower from an 80' sport route. The one situation I can think of offhand is where the anchors are set back from the edge of the wall, like when the route tops out on a ledge, and the rope is running over an abrasive edge, in which case I would probably rap. The only other reasons to rap are gear preservation and trad style points, both of which are trumped by the enhanced safety inherent in lowering instead of rappeling. You get disabled rappeling, whether you're using a rap backup or not, you're fucked, whereas your partner keeps lowering you if you become disabled while you're being lowered. If he's using a grigri and becomes disabled while lowering you, the grigri holds you. It is idiotic to pretend that the preservation of cheap hardware somehow justifies putting yourself in greater danger - by that logic, running stop signs is justified because it saves wear and tear on your brakes.
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weschrist
Feb 18, 2006, 6:36 AM
Post #140 of 161
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I had to read through six pages of PTPP-like "better way" BS before one of you sporttards would admit the truth. Come on, man.
I carry an ATC to every crag I visit and I still don't rap off steep sport climbs.
btw, this "sporttard" could out trad climb your lame ass any day of the week at any crag.
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cracklover
Feb 18, 2006, 3:08 PM
Post #141 of 161
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In reply to: I carry an ATC to every crag I visit and I still don't rap off steep sport climbs.
That's interesting. Why do you carry it around? If I'm going sport climbing, I often don't. Do other folks?
In reply to: btw, this "sporttard" could out trad climb your lame ass any day of the week at any crag.
So let's say for the sake of argument that you can outclimb 95% of the posters here on rc.noob. So... what? Shall we all sit here quietly at our terminals, waiting patiently for your insight on all things climbing? Oh joy.
Whether or not that's true, it has zero impact on anything whatsoever, whether in this argument or in our respective lives. Unless for some bizarre reason it makes you feel good to know that you might climb harder than some random person you just met on the internet.
GO
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cracklover
Feb 18, 2006, 3:14 PM
Post #142 of 161
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In reply to: In reply to: Voila - you can't rap even in cases where it's arguably a better choice. Humans have a funny tendency to make up reasons to justify actions they're already going to take. It is almost never a better choice to rappel rather than lower from an 80' sport route. The one situation I can think of offhand is where the anchors are set back from the edge of the wall, like when the route tops out on a ledge, and the rope is running over an abrasive edge, in which case I would probably rap.
Do you? How so - do you rap off a single strand while your partner holds you locked off, or are you another sporto who happens to suddenly bring their ATC up every sport climb *just in case*. 'Cause I've gotta say, I don't see any of that in Rumney, nor did I see it in France. But I'm completely unaware of the west coast sport scene, so if all of y'all are bringing your atcs up every 80 foot climb, please do educate me.
GO
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justthemaid
Feb 18, 2006, 3:43 PM
Post #143 of 161
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cracklover said:
In reply to: Hahahaha! C'mon, Jay, you expect me to believe that you don't walk around in real life with a blackberry, a pager, a leatherman, and a scientific calculator on your belt? Just consider the TRE a nerd-accessory. The ladies just love it, and it won't get caught on an outcrop of rock and rip your head off when you fall, like the nylon neck strap on the flash memory card you carry when you climb now. Damn, though, 2 gig? That is a cool one .
GO
:lol: :lol: :lol: That's totally funny.
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kalcario
Feb 18, 2006, 4:01 PM
Post #144 of 161
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In reply to: do you rap off a single strand while your partner holds you locked off, or are you another sporto who happens to suddenly bring their ATC up every sport climb *just in case*. 'Cause I've gotta say, I don't see any of that in Rumney, nor did I see it in France. But I'm completely unaware of the west coast sport scene, so if all of y'all are bringing your atcs up every 80 foot climb, please do educate me. GO
You can single-strand back down with a grigri, or double strand with a munter on a locking biner. ATC's are pretty much obsolete. Didn't even use ATC's or stitch plates that much back in the day, either, we belayed with a munter. Done many grade 5 free climbs in Yosemite that way, no belay device, just a munter on a locking biner.
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jt512
Feb 18, 2006, 5:55 PM
Post #145 of 161
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I had to read through six pages of PTPP-like "better way" BS before one of you sporttards would admit the truth. excellent logic... search X pages until you find the answer that fits your belief system... then claim you found an expression of the truth. Are you a Seventh Day Adventist by chance? Come on, man. Plenty of people are saying that they don't want to rap, even in situations where they know it's no harder to get off via rapping. Even admitting that it puts more wear on the anchors. Most don't set out to do things they think don't make sense. So why do they *never* rap? Because they can't rap! They don't have a device with them to make it feasible. If you start with the premise that you're not going to rap, then there's no reason to bring anything but a gri-gri with you when you head to the crag. Voila - you can't rap even in cases where it's arguably a better choice. Humans have a funny tendency to make up reasons to justify actions they're already going to take. GO
But who cares if we can rap. The argument for rapping sport routes depends on the premise that it is a virtue to put as little wear on the anchors as possible. It isn't. The anchors at most sport crags were installed for the purpose of lowering, with full knowledge that they will eventually wear out and need to be replaced. If you don't want to use the anchors for their intended purpose, and you can rap safely, then suit yourself. But once you realize that there is no moral advantage to rapping, you've got to ask yourself why you'd prefer it over lowering.
Jay
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bikerecker
Feb 18, 2006, 7:37 PM
Post #146 of 161
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I think the posters who referred to the advantages of flexibility got it right. Be ready to rap if you should, lower if you need to. Over the holidays, I climbed in Horshoe Canyon Ranch, in AR. The online guidebook ( http://www.climbhcr.com/ ) states clearly: do not lower off the anchors. This is a private crag, and the owners want us to rap off, so I did. The same week, I headed over to Jamestown crag in Batesville, AR, and climbed with two locals, who had done most if not all of the area's bolting. They told me to leave my ATC on the ground. The place sees little to no traffic, so wear on the anchors is a non-issue.
Greg
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kalcario
Feb 18, 2006, 8:17 PM
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In reply to: Horshoe Canyon Ranch, in AR. The online guidebook ( http://www.climbhcr.com/ ) states clearly: do not lower off the anchors. This is a private crag, and the owners want us to rap off, so I did.
In which case I would simply leave bail biners on the anchors, which is the way it should be set up in the first place so you can either rap or lower. With replaceable lower-off points like chain links or fixed biners, the actual anchors don't wear out, which rappeling directly through the anchors will eventually cause anyway. A private crag basically has the same liability issues as a climbing gym, so obviously it would be much safer to just throw the rope into a gated lower-off point, like in a gym, instead of forcing the added risk of untying at the anchor and rappeling. Imagine if gyms forced you to rap. Pretty silly. Doesn't sound like the Horseshoe Ranch guys thought that one out too well. First rappel accident will get that place shut down.
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daithi
Feb 18, 2006, 8:59 PM
Post #148 of 161
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In reply to: Come on, man. Plenty of people are saying that they don't want to rap, even in situations where they know it's no harder to get off via rapping. Even admitting that it puts more wear on the anchors. Most don't set out to do things they think don't make sense. So why do they *never* rap? Because they can't rap! They don't have a device with them to make it feasible. If you start with the premise that you're not going to rap, then there's no reason to bring anything but a gri-gri with you when you head to the crag. Voila - you can't rap even in cases where it's arguably a better choice.
In this part of the world the most common term given to what Americans call 'anchors' on sport routes is 'lower-offs'. You will find it in internet articles, topos, guidebooks, area descriptions etc. We call them that for a reason (it's hardly too cryptic)! If it is a sport route you are expected to lower-off by the person who equipped the route and just about everyone else. Whether you do or not is your own business.
It is never more convenient to abseil from the top of a route and it is potentially more dangerous when attempting to clean a route. The only scenario I can think of is the one that kalcario mentioned about the rope running over an abrasive edge, in which case I would expect it to mentioned in the guidebook.
So there you go. That's the reason the ATC is left at home. In Europe I know if I am sport climbing it is understood by just about everyone (and certainly the people who equipped the routes) that I will be lowering. And I am happy because it makes my life a lot easier than having to abseil from each route.
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cracklover
Feb 18, 2006, 10:55 PM
Post #150 of 161
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In reply to: In reply to: do you rap off a single strand while your partner holds you locked off, or are you another sporto who happens to suddenly bring their ATC up every sport climb *just in case*. 'Cause I've gotta say, I don't see any of that in Rumney, nor did I see it in France. But I'm completely unaware of the west coast sport scene, so if all of y'all are bringing your atcs up every 80 foot climb, please do educate me. GO You can single-strand back down with a grigri, or double strand with a munter on a locking biner. ATC's are pretty much obsolete. Didn't even use ATC's or stitch plates that much back in the day, either, we belayed with a munter. Done many grade 5 free climbs in Yosemite that way, no belay device, just a munter on a locking biner.
That's all fine and dandy, but it doesn't really get to the meat of my question. Okay, you've cleaned a climb and discover that you don't like the way the rope is running over the rock once it's clipped through the shuts. What do you do? Do you have a gri-gri with you? Most sportos I know leave it on the ground. Do you have a big wide-mouthed locker? And even if you do, do you really want to kink up your rope by rapping on a munter? I mean, at this point, I can see how most solutions are getting into mild pain-in-the-ass territory.
Honestly, I'm curious. My contention is that you generally lower because that's what you're generally prepared to do.
GO
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