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kalcario
Feb 19, 2006, 12:12 AM
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In reply to: That's all fine and dandy, but it doesn't really get to the meat of my question. Okay, you've cleaned a climb and discover that you don't like the way the rope is running over the rock once it's clipped through the shuts. What do you do? Do you have a gri-gri with you? Most sportos I know leave it on the ground. Do you have a big wide-mouthed locker? And even if you do, do you really want to kink up your rope by rapping on a munter? I mean, at this point, I can see how most solutions are getting into mild pain-in-the-ass territory. Honestly, I'm curious. My contention is that you generally lower because that's what you're generally prepared to do. GO
you would pull the grigri up. I so rarely rap, like once every 2 years or so, that the occasional munter rappel is ok. The rope unkinks when you pull it through the anchor, and unkinks more on the next route. Chouinard used to make these things called Pearabiners specifically for munters, but any big locker works tolerably well. And yes, I lower because that's what I'm prepared to do. Also it makes sense to lower and not rap from about a dozen different perspectives. One of the reasons I quit trad was, I hated rappeling.
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weschrist
Feb 21, 2006, 2:23 AM
Post #152 of 161
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It is pretty simple, it is perfectly acceptable to LOWER out of fixed anchors on steep sport climbs because it is safer and easier to clean the draws that way, but TRing out of them is discouraged because it is just as safe and easy to TR out of your own draws.
You may have a hard time with the concept of sportards lowering out of the anchors. This is most likely due to your ignorance of the generally accepted practices and your inability to climb anything steeper than vertical.
Personally, I have a hard time with the concept of people pounding pitons into rock and pulling themselves up with them rather than actually climbing... but when in Rome....
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cracklover
Feb 21, 2006, 4:53 AM
Post #153 of 161
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In reply to: You may have a hard time with the concept of sportards lowering out of the anchors.
Not in the least. I often do it myself when I'm sport climbing and it makes sense to do. I just have difficulty with not calling a spade a spade.
In reply to: This is most likely due to your ignorance of the generally accepted practices and your inability to climb anything steeper than vertical.
In my case, that would be, uh... no. On both counts.
In reply to: Personally, I have a hard time with the concept of people pounding pitons into rock and pulling themselves up with them rather than actually climbing... but when in Rome....
Well that all depends on your definition of "rock"! You oughta try climbing a nice big mud tower in Utah. ;)
GO
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weschrist
Feb 21, 2006, 5:50 AM
Post #155 of 161
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In reply to: I just have difficulty with not calling a spade a spade.
racist
In reply to: You oughta try climbing a nice big mud tower in Utah.
sure, right after I pull my fingernails out with vice-grips and shave my eyeballs with a straight razor.
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kalcario
Feb 21, 2006, 6:00 AM
Post #156 of 161
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In reply to: Certainly I know a lot of folks who have moved away from bigger scarier stuff after getting a little older and having families, but I'd not thought that rappelling played a role in that. Also, rapping isn't always a sport/trad thing. Plenty of multi pitch sport in Europe and plenty of single pitch or few-pitch-and-walk-off trad on the East Coast.
Size does not equal scary - I've been more scared on single pitch sport routes than on multi-pitch trad 5.11's in Yosemite and elsewhere. There is virtually no part of Astroman or the Rostrum where you can't stick in a bomber piece at forehead level, but on harder sport climbs, 30' or longer falls from actually hard (as in, not 5.11) climbing are not uncommon.
And yes, you rap down multi-pitch routes, sport or trad. You have this condescending tone that seems to imply that there is no such thing as an experienced sport climber. I've only done El Cap a couple times myself, which makes me a beginner in the crowd I regularly sport climb with, but one of my regular sport climbing partners has 60 trips up the Big, is in his 50's, and climbs 200 days a year, either sport, ice, or nailing. The other guys are intermediate-level, with only 20 to 30 El Cap ascents. Trad free climbing was relegated 20 or so years ago to "date climbing" status, i.e. easy climbing with females who can't do steep sport, ice, or walls. Although, come to think of it, a few of the females I sport climb with have done El Cap too...
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alleyehave
Feb 21, 2006, 9:51 AM
Post #157 of 161
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[quote="rasperas"]In reply to: Personally I am more comfortable when my life is in my own hands.
Then I imagine most of the climbing you do is free-soloing? If you can't trust your partner to lower you, how in the world do you trust them to belay you?
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healyje
Feb 21, 2006, 10:27 AM
Post #158 of 161
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Jesus are you folks still squabbling on about this? And for a guy that makes bold statements like the one below it's pretty damn stunning that you'd have more than about a twenty lines of conversation on this topic and certainly no more than that on how to simply get the f#ck down a single pitch climb with fixed anchors on top. This is right up there with a twenty pager on how to finish off your tie-in. Sport climbing may have gotten harder and harder over the years, but if this conversation is any indication it's also been getting inane and dumber that entire time.
In reply to: Trad free climbing was relegated 20 or so years ago to "date climbing" status, i.e. easy climbing with females who can't do steep sport, ice, or walls.
I suppose if the only trad routes you're ever willing to tackle are those with cracks you can slam a piece in at face level and dog all the way up you'd end up feeling this way. That and a deep-seated need for the absolute predictability of the next placement. Otherwise I'd say you must have bought new amplifiers for that reality distortion field you're climbing inside of...
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cracklover
Feb 21, 2006, 1:41 PM
Post #159 of 161
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In reply to: In reply to: I just have difficulty with not calling a spade a spade. racist
Dammit! I didn't think anybody'd call me on that. Figure of speech, man, figure of speech!
GO
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cracklover
Feb 21, 2006, 1:54 PM
Post #160 of 161
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In reply to: In reply to: Certainly I know a lot of folks who have moved away from bigger scarier stuff after getting a little older and having families, but I'd not thought that rappelling played a role in that. Also, rapping isn't always a sport/trad thing. Plenty of multi pitch sport in Europe and plenty of single pitch or few-pitch-and-walk-off trad on the East Coast. Size does not equal scary - I've been more scared on single pitch sport routes than on multi-pitch trad 5.11's in Yosemite and elsewhere. There is virtually no part of Astroman or the Rostrum where you can't stick in a bomber piece at forehead level, but on harder sport climbs, 30' or longer falls from actually hard (as in, not 5.11) climbing are not uncommon.
Maybe I wasn't clear, or you missed my point. What I mean is that the folks I climb with who have been climbing for 20 years or more often have taken a similar trajectory to yours (from what little I know of that) where they tend to do less of the bold and daring (first ascents, hard with iffy pro) and more of pushing their personal physical limits on terrain that's terra cognita. What I hadn't considered was that rappelling had anything to do with it for them. And maybe it doesn't. But I doubt that you and Dingus are unique in the realm of folks who've been around the block a few times.
Where you get this business of thinking I'm looking down on you, or that all sport climbers are inexperienced, I have no idea. (Personal baggage, perhaps?) I like a good argument, and if you have a problem with that, sorry.
The fact that trad is not your bag is fine. Why should that matter to me?
GO
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kalcario
Feb 21, 2006, 5:17 PM
Post #161 of 161
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In reply to: Over the holidays, I climbed in Horshoe Canyon Ranch, in AR. The online guidebook ( http://www.climbhcr.com/ ) states clearly: do not lower off the anchors. This is a private crag, and the owners want us to rap off, so I did. Greg
I was curious about this so I wrote HCR and the owner said that "everyone who is uncomfortable rappeling lowers". So apparently they allow both.
I also heard from some people I know in Boulder, and nobody seems to know anything about this (from p.4 of this thread):
In reply to: Accidents due to 'sawed' anchors that I have been present for;... clear creek cnyn Co early 2002 ? they were loading a dead guy when we arrived, we split. Shuts replaced the nest day.
I think a fatality caused by sawed-through anchors would be pretty big news, anybody know anything about this? The fatalities I know of at Clear Creek were a woman in 2000, from "rope mismanagement", and one in 2004 which was not climbing related.
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