It's fine, it hasn't reached the end where the brunt of the weight will be held. They are rated for ripping force and end to end force. It might rip easier, but still hold you once you get to the end.

>Cam

Don't you just hate it when you get your nuts stuck in the crack.

i've heard stories of guys on hard-aid pre-cutting some of the shock-absorbing stitching in order to get them to activate at lower loads. this would probably entail working just one side of the stitching, since if one were to work the stitching out completely across the width of the stitching what would that accomplish?

That is why Yates makes the ScreamAid. This sling has a lower activation energy. It also has less ability to absorb energy,

...but then an aid fall is generally short.

You may use your screamer for extended periods of time untill you are both satisfyed. failing to satisfy your screamer may result in your screamer finding a new partner and denying you further access to the screamer. Useing propper protection when your screamer deploys is highly recomended. Failing to use proper protection when your screamer deploys may result in dammaged equiptment or the creation of a small smelly annoying little expensive screamer.

I fell on my first screamer the other day. I had clipped it to a rusty old pin protecting a crux roof, which probably would have held with just a sling, but I wanted to stay on the safe side. The fall was not very long, so the screamer only opened up a little bit. About 1/4 inch of stiching pulled, and the rest of it is intact (it is a standard screamer, not an ice or zipper screamer). Do you guys think I should continue to use it, or just for fun and to satisfy my curiousity, should I take a big fall in the gym on it?

I know that if it is partially torn, it will slightly reduce the amount of force it will absorb, and it will probably activate at a lower force now. Would that be enough to make you retire it, or still use it on pieces that could probably hold a fall but your just not 100% sure?

Thanks.
~Kevin

Just get a sewing machine and resew the ripped area. I mean, what does Yates do that is so special?

-Pete

That is why Yates makes the ScreamAid. This sling has a lower activation energy. It also has less ability to absorb energy, but then an aid fall is generally short. They are also lighter than the other Screamers.

metolius pas

Do yourself a favor, use a nylon daisy instead.

josh

I would also be interested in the explanation of why a daisy chain is preferable to a Metolius PAS as a personal anchor. Lots of climbers I know use the PAS, self included.

Kathy

Any reason for the PM versus posting it here?

I have some recent images of how screamers and daisy survived the fall test, I mean load decked but daisies were still hanging out there . Do you guys want to see them ?

Have a guy with current CPR and an AED ready to assist you in event of a heart attack .

Thanks for the reply.

I understand the physics behind how a screamer works and how it absorbs force...

To many arm chair mountaineers/techy no it alls around here...and I don't feel like playing games.

Here is all I'm going to tell you. Those pas device's aren't as "strong" as you think. IF you are going to use any kind of "tether" the safest thing to use is a NYLON (NOT SPECTRA) daisy chain or something similiar.
Just remember, always tie in with the rope.

josh

i'm getting extremely tired of you hinting at things but never backing them up. if you know something we don't just spit it out. do us all a service, eh? if anything YOU are the armchair techie. every post you make talks about how some piece of gear is suspect but you never elaborate on it.
if you don't want to argue about it, you don't have to revisit the topic after your initial post. but quit being such a whiner about people potentially criticizing you

honestly, i personally have never held a desire for the killfile feature, but you're certainly making me wonder if it would be worthwhile so i could ignore your bullshit.

You are a classic example of the reason so many good climbers don't even look at this site anymore. Let alone post worthwhile info. Thanks for being the problem.

You can suck my nuts.

josh

in addition you just flamed me because i asked you for a simple explanation.

go whine about BDs cams some more. see what other crap you can come up with.

you still haven't explained yourself

(armchair techies doesn't quite cut it)

regardless, i'm thinking i should ignore the possibility that you might have something worthwhile to say.

Nor do I have to! ...or will I because a punter like you thinks he deserves something and is a jerk about it.

Arm chair techie's does cover it(it not the only reason)...present company included!

Please ignore everything I have to say...you already know everything anyway!

josh

Back that junk up, or else your contributions to threads are as useless as completely wrong and misguided answers.

Awwwww.....2 little pansy's from Vermont with each others backs!!

I'll bet you guys got to do a whole bunch of snow slogs this winter huh? Probably Have "epics" all the time just so you can "cuddle" to keep warm.

Classic RC.noob idiots. No wonder every leaves this site!

josh

I'll bet you guys got to do a whole bunch of snow slogs this winter huh? Probably Have "epics" all the time just so you can "cuddle" to keep warm.

i changed my mind. i like you. you can join our cuddlefest, but only if i get to give you a noogie

Ok, but I call the middle! You sexy bastards!

josh

YAY! A threesome!!!

I would also be interested in the explanation of why a daisy chain is preferable to a Metolius PAS as a personal anchor. Lots of climbers I know use the PAS, self included.

Kathy

Josh (Flamer) was obliquely relaying that a reputable source he knows did some destructive drop testing on a bunch of things including daisies and the Metolius PAS. As a result of these tests he is advising folks to use regular nylon daisies instead of the PAS.

Josh, the problem with these tests isn't the results, but to some extent with both the tests and the interpretation of the what the results mean.

First, and as you note, taking a dynamic fall on either a daisy or a PAS is a misuse of either - neither were ever designed to hold falls. As to your statement that people do sometimes make that mistake - true enough, it does sometimes happen - but, significant daisy falls (from above the point of attachement) basically only ever happens when aiding, and again, improperly. Daisies are designed for aid; the PAS was never designed for nor recommended for use as a 'daisy' when aiding.

Second, daisy chain pockets can and do blow around 300lbs and, in a bad fall you will ultimately either blow out a chain pocket or come to the end of the daisy - either way you will hopefully be brought (broke) up short by the end loops. A PAS loop is made up of the same sling material and manner as a 22kn sling is, but due to the webbing on webbing connections inherent in the design they will fail somewhere around 18kn. A daisy tested just with endloops will likely test out a bit above that. The point, however, is that your body wouldn't survive either intact - you'd be busted up in a grand way regardless way before either of those loads.

Third, the P.A.S. stands for 'Personal Anchor System' - not as a daisy. If you arrive at a belay and clip a solid anchor with a PAS and then fell off the stance to the end of the PAS you can still hurt yourself badly depending on how much PAS is out - but the odds of a slip from a belay on to the anchor via a PAS generating anywhere near the types of forces/loads I've just mentioned above are infintessimal to none.

So in general, "misuse" is the operative word here for any failure of a daisy or a PAS and in this whole discussion. The difference is you possibly could, by a fluke or miscue, fall on a daisy from above the attachment point while aiding - that should never happen with a PAS. Used as intended, as a Personal Anchor System and where you are never above your anchor, you are not going to generate forces that would break one. Josh, the results you have implied are correct, your takeaway message is not, however. It's apples and oranges to an extent and the comparison of the failures is only valid for misuses of either, and an extreme misuse in the case of the PAS. As a daisy the PAS is an serious error in judgment; as an anchoring system the PAS is superior in everyway to a daisy.

You may use your screamer for extended periods of time untill you are both satisfyed. failing to satisfy your screamer may result in your screamer finding a new partner and denying you further access to the screamer. Useing propper protection when your screamer deploys is highly recomended. Failing to use proper protection when your screamer deploys may result in dammaged equiptment or the creation of a small smelly annoying little expensive screamer.

Healy, Not only did you not get it. I assumed that you understood the reason I PM'd you was for the info to remain private. I do not appreciate your post,it is out of line and disrespectful.

I'm very glad I did not share all of the info with you and find it funny that you call these test's...oblique and destructive...both in what i interpret as an attempt to write them off. You do not even know what EXACTLY was done in the test's, thus your interpretations are useless.

Yes neither should be shock loaded as I noted, TO YOU, however situations regularly occur,in all types off climbing that could result in a force big enough for the PAS to fail, which is what was discovered in the drop tests. Yes the loops on a daisy can blow out. However there will not be catastrophic failure. Which is possible with the PAS.

The problem with the PAS is it's use of spectre. If they used Nylon it would be a superior device. Although the friction added in nylon to nylon contact would need to be studied. You missed and left out some of the points.

If you wanted to discuss this you should have PMed me back directly. I'm sure you took the time to look up the "reputable source", in an effort to discredit what I told you. But they exsist and did the test's I said. So that didn't work.

Quite the contrary, it would not be a superior device. To make such a device hold a standard 22kn or more I'm guessing it would be bulky and no one would use it.

2) testing has shown that spectra is significantly weakened over time. after it's held a couple falls it's pretty much equal to nylon on every aspect

Except that it NEVER has any dynamic qualities. Which is why spectra(or it's many knock off's) is not a good material for anytype of "tether".

josh

That's right, the whole discussion is about "what if I grossly misused this product?"

I'm curious, healy, have you ever taken a daisy fall?

I have. twice. Hurt like hell. But I was actually not harmed. I didn't break the nylon daisy I was using.

People "grossly misuse" climbing products all the time. Ever hear of someone soloing on a Grigri? IS it rated for that?

When was the last time you did some devious descent? Rappel's from trees or slung blocks way out on the edge...did you clip your "tether" to the sling's before stepping out to thread the rope? What if you slipped?

But that never happens right? No one would ever do anything like that! And slip!! I've got to be kidding!

Keep your head in the dirt and soon your body will join it.

josh

I'm curious, healy, have you ever taken a daisy fall? I have. twice. Hurt like hell. But I was actually not harmed. I didn't break the nylon daisy I was using.

People "grossly misuse" climbing products all the time. Ever hear of someone soloing on a Grigri? IS it rated for that?

When was the last time you did some devious descent? Rappel's from trees or slung blocks way out on the edge...did you clip your "tether" to the sling's before stepping out to thread the rope? What if you slipped?

Keep your head in the dirt and soon your body will join it.

[Answer the question.

Healy, Sometimes you come accross as doing everything perfect all the time. Real life is not that perfect. On any given day I witness folks clipping in to raps with slings daisys etc in situations that could shockload the dynema pretty good. i even do it myself on rare ocasions.

I'm sure he's gloating now about how right he was despite how wrong he looked.

My reason for not wanting to say anything before is that I was gvien that info from a freind who is one of the head riggers and instructors for Rigging for rescue. He participated in the test's mentioned. I did not want to post it publicly because #1 I wasn't aware they had already made the results public #2 I didn't want to post their hard work, which is a part of their livelyhood.

Josh, again, you were 'jumped on by others' because your whole approach to this was just flat out wrong and inept as well. Even if you were to miraculously go away still thinking nylon daisies are in any way preferrable to a PAS, I would hope you at least figured out this isn't how such a topic should be broached or approached in an on-line forum.

Sheeesh - go climb

Healy,

You are wrong.
You were wrong to post the information I gave to you in private.
You are wrong about the PAS.
Your opinion means nothing to me.

I will "broach or approach" any subject in anyway I
choose. I do not care what a backstabber like you thinks.

josh

if you can't back up a statement about a product, then don't make one.

Also, I asked Metolius about the materail in the PAS and it isn't straight spectre - it's a special run of material the Metolius crew engineered specifically for the PAS. And given the R4R testing is apparently out in the open I've suggested Metolius contact them directly and also post up their own response here.

The standard mathematical models and the scanty test data available predict something like 13.7 kN for nylon and 15 kN for spectra, both above the UIAA upper limit for damage to the human body.