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mikedano
Mar 13, 2003, 10:32 PM
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I am concerned about the cam stops issue.
As I understand it, aliens are one of the only brands that don't include cam stops. It's hard to tell from looking at the picture, but do you or anyone else think that a similar cam with cam stops would have helped?
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ricardol
Mar 13, 2003, 10:49 PM
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phil:
since you said that its you thats doing the investigation into this accident -- have you been up the climb to the location where the black cam ripped (and the blue cam?) --
.. perhaps you can post pictures on what scars might have been left on the rock from the ripped placements .. that would give some hints as to what the cams did under load.
to address other posts: .. asking questions like why there wasn't more pro placed does little to solve why her gear ripped. -- obviously if she'd set more pro, she would have had a bigger chance on surviving her fall.
-- ricardo
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caughtinside
Mar 13, 2003, 10:55 PM
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Its hard to say if stops would have helped, without seeing the placement. The thing is, those tiny cams are difficult to place because of the tiny expansion range. My guess is that the placement was poor enough so that they wouldn't have helped.
I'm all for stops, but I think people have a tendency to overvalue them. If you make a good placement, the cam won't walk, and the cams won't be able to invert.
I think I have a little idea of what happened. Miss B likes gear. I'm just guessing because I love shiny gear, and if I felt I was cruising I would probably succumb to the temptation to place a cool, tiny, advanced 50 dollar cam rather than a dull, scratched, passive nut.
And that's ok. When you're cruising is the best time to experiment with placement of new gear. Accidents happen though, so I'm going to continue to inspect my placements and wear a helmet.
Best wishes for a speedy recovery.
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dogen
Mar 13, 2003, 10:58 PM
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cam stops in single axle cams only work when two opposing lobes are completely uncammed. in this situation one set of lobes was cammed and the other was uncammed, therefore the cam stops were not engaged. camalots with their double axle design (sizes .3 and up) are the only cams that cannot become inverted like the piece in question.
i've seen other small single axle cams become inverted like this. its usually the result of the piece walking into a wider section of the crack, or being placed incorrectly in the first place.
here's wishing the leader a speedy recovery.
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caughtinside
Mar 13, 2003, 11:02 PM
Post #30 of 54
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Dogen,
The double axel doesn't make a difference as long as the stops are full strength. DMM cams will not invert.
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drector
Mar 13, 2003, 11:13 PM
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In reply to: Dogen, The double axel doesn't make a difference as long as the stops are full strength. DMM cams will not invert.
The cam stops on camalots stop a single cam no matter the position of the other 3 cams. On other camming devices, the two opposing cams stop against each other so it is possible for one to invert if the other has not opened up all of the way.
I only looked at the picture of the cam a few days ago but I think that it was the case that only one side inverted.
Cam stops allow a cam to be placed passively but I don't think they will make a bad cam placement usable in any way (bad placement or walking into a bad position). If any one lobe does not grab then things get very iffy very quickly. If the lobes on one side open all the way, it's dumb luck if it holds a hamster.
Dave
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dogen
Mar 13, 2003, 11:25 PM
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thanks for the clearification Dave, that's exaclty what i was trying to say.
i think its also important to note that axles on camalots are the cam stops. any given lobe rotates on one axle, and is stopped (should the need arise) by the other.
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mikedano
Mar 13, 2003, 11:31 PM
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Perhaps one lesson to learn from this is that cams are complicated pieces of equipment (perhaps the most complicated thing on a rack.) When used correctly they're great, but it's pretty easy to use them incorrectly. Therefore, WHEN IN DOUBT, NUT (or hex) IT OUT.
Clever, huh?
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jt512
Mar 14, 2003, 1:04 AM
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In reply to: cam stops in single axle cams only work when two opposing lobes are completely uncammed. in this situation one set of lobes was cammed and the other was uncammed, therefore the cam stops were not engaged.
Actually, in this situation, they were Aliens, which do not have cam stops.
-Jay
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number7
Mar 14, 2003, 2:24 AM
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I love this site, I love this site, I love this site! It is very unfortunate but a fact that people do and will get hurt rock climbing. Any one of us could be the next accident, no matter how skilled we might be. But this site makes the fear and the mountain of information to learn so much more tollerable. Thank you Philbox for all of the information you have provided to us for I can see no other reason than to help and inform. Sometimes we only get the accident report, but are missing many peices that we can learn from. Because we have so much of the story, I feel particularly close to this. And again, I wish my very best to those involved.
Peace, M
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philbox
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Mar 14, 2003, 4:31 AM
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In reply to: phil: since you said that its you thats doing the investigation into this accident -- have you been up the climb to the location where the black cam ripped (and the blue cam?) -- .. perhaps you can post pictures on what scars might have been left on the rock from the ripped placements .. that would give some hints as to what the cams did under load. -- ricardo
They were a Black Alien and a Green Alien that ripped and no I haven`t been up there but one of the other guys went up to retrieve the other gear that was left up there. He says that he saw where the Green Alien ripped from. I`m heading back out the Saturday morning so I will attempt to get a pic of where I think the placement ripped from. I`m gunna take a Black Alien and a Green Alien up there and fish around to try to identify what went wrong.
Number7 brings up a good point too. Often we hear about accidents but more often than not we are all left wondering what happened technically. I do believe that we climbers can learn much from each other by examining all the causes of these events and learn to develop habits that preclude us from stuffing up big time. This I believe is far and away a much better way of modifying behaviour than to legislate. Once you have legislated rules and try to codify behaviour you begin a dumbing down process. Education is much much better than legislation.
I`m also a great believer in learning from mistakes, those of my own and just as importantly from the mistakes of others. What was that quote, I stand on the shoulders of giants (or was that the other way around where giants are standing on my shoulders). Learning by the mistakes of others is like a pyramid reaching for the sky. Many mistakes were made and avoided to bring to us a body of knowledge that we can learn from if we take the trouble to educate ourselves.
...Phil...
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number7
Mar 14, 2003, 4:44 AM
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Amen.
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smithclimber
Mar 14, 2003, 6:20 AM
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"A wise man learns from his mistakes, a wiser man learns from the mistakes of others".
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smithclimber
Mar 14, 2003, 6:24 AM
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"A wise man learns from his mistakes, a wiser man learns from the mistakes of others".
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philbox
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Mar 17, 2003, 9:55 PM
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I`ve posted some more pics of the offending green Alien placement. We went up to the crag last weekend and rapped the route to determine how these cams pulled. We placed cams in the locations where they would have pulled from.
http://www.pbase.com/...t_frog_buttress_8303
The Green Alien was known to have pulled from the location where we have taken pictures of our placement. Our investigations lead us to believe that the green Alien walked in to a position where the Alien was too small resulting in the lobes on one side becoming fully open. We also discovered that the large block that the Alien sat behind had some degree of movement thus all the evidence leads us to believe that this placement was never going to hold a fall.
The trivial nature of the climbing up to this point leads the novice climber into a false sense of security. This placement would have worked if climber had placed another piece when she clambered on top of the block. It would have been okay to protect a short scrambly move to another placement. The thing is that there are other better options for pro placement around this block with two large hex placements either side of the large block.
The lessons to be learned here is to test blocks for movement, be suspicious of all blocks, flakes etc. especially when useing active camming devices, look for the optimal placement with the biggest and bomberest piece of gear that you can get. Extend your cams to minimise the chances of them walking. Don`t blindly trust your placements just because it is a cam.
...Phil...
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jumaringjeff
Mar 17, 2003, 10:48 PM
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yeow that green alien placement is scary lookin'. i wouldn't even think of climbing past that, nor would I try to hang off of it.
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ricardol
Mar 17, 2003, 11:11 PM
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The green placement is definately bad -- you need to use the next size up at least.
The black placement also leaves alot of be desired -- i usually like to place my cams suck that the lobes area all "encased" in the rock -- the black placement has one of thelobes outside the crack -- (even though its making contact with the rock) -- also i usually like my cam placements to be deeper than the black one is .. the tips of the lobes are outside of the constriction .. which can make the cam "pop" out.
-- ugh -- so sad that this accident could have been prevented ..
.. inc eht green cam case -- using a bigger cam, deeper in the crack would have helped -- or a different piece -- or more pieces above it ..
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philbox
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Mar 17, 2003, 11:13 PM
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The thing about the green Alien placement is that it would have looked ok to a novice leader but subsequent to climbing past it without a runner placed on the cam it walked in to that dodgy placement and then of course the slightly wobbly block meant that this cam would not hold a shock load. The climber fell on the black Alien which was in a dodgy placement to start with and it blew resulting in a shock load to the green Alien which by that time was bunk.
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philbox
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Mar 17, 2003, 11:24 PM
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In reply to: The green placement is definately bad -- you need to use the next size up at least. The black placement also leaves alot of be desired -- i usually like to place my cams suck that the lobes area all "encased" in the rock -- the black placement has one of thelobes outside the crack -- (even though its making contact with the rock) -- also i usually like my cam placements to be deeper than the black one is .. the tips of the lobes are outside of the constriction .. which can make the cam "pop" out. -- ugh -- so sad that this accident could have been prevented .. .. inc eht green cam case -- using a bigger cam, deeper in the crack would have helped -- or a different piece -- or more pieces above it ..
There`s no question that the black cam is bunk. The green Alien on the other hand could have been okay but for the lack of a runner and compounding the problems here is that the block was wobbly. I`m not sure that a larger cam would have worked in this placement given that the block had movement. A larger cam could well have moved the block as well. I think you hit the nail on the head with the comment about placing more gear above this cam. There were also ample opportunities to place big hexes at the sides of this block.
I`m definitely coming to the conclusion that the climber did not have sufficient gear placing skills in her repertoir. I think that novice trad leaders need much more coaching in gear placing options. I always coach my pupils in the art of the funky non obvious gear placement. Easy placements come somewhat naturally but when things get a bit odd then one needs lots more skills.
Anyway keep the comments flowing, this is highly educational for any budding trad crackmeister.
...Phil...
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philbox
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Mar 18, 2003, 9:42 PM
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Below is a pic of the tipped out lobes on the green Alien placement. This was a pic taken for a recreation of events leading up to the accident
The pic below here is another view of the placement.
Here is a pic looking down from the top of the v groove to the blocks. The closest block to the v groove is where the green Alien was placed.
While we were poking around we found that this large block had some movement. This meant that because the green Alien got wiggled and walked in to a slightly larger placement and the Alien subsequently had two lobes fully opened and then the rock had movement the fall ripped the Alien out of its position in the crack.
We found alternatives to this placement on either side of this green Alien placement. There were two large hex placements that could have been utilised. As a matter of fact where the black Alien blew further up the crack there was also a large hex placement nearby that would have been perfect.
...Phil...
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bandycoot
Mar 18, 2003, 11:22 PM
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This makes me want to critique my friends' placements MUCH MORE OFTEN. It is truly a sad accident that could have been prevented if B had known what to look for in a placement. There is nothing wrong with all active protection on a climb as some of you are implying, provided it is GOOD. As a result of this topic, I'm going to go and preach good gear placements much more often, and stress that beginner climbers need to follow A LOT before leading and discuss the pro's and con's of certain placements. Thank you all for the excellent information and discussion.
Josh
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trillium
Mar 19, 2003, 2:50 PM
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I printed this topic and all of its replies out and plan on showing a few people the photos and opinions. It truly is an excellent teaching tool. I think we should have a regular section in the forum labeled: "What's wrong with this picture?" Thank you philbox and all of you who put effort into thoughtful replies.
trillium
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mewalrus
Jun 11, 2003, 5:38 AM
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Here is good advice from Metolius, I was reading this today and thought of this accident and thread.
In reply to: It's critical to place micro-sized TCUs and Power Cams near their full retraction.
I would guess this applies to all micro cams. Make sure you slot them TIGHT!!
I know sometimes people worry about making their cams permanent fixtures in the rock, but the alternative is even worse.
One other thing. In my opinion its almost impossible to beat a well placed hex, as phils comments alluded to. If I have a good stance I'm always looking to place a bomber hex.
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ptone
Jun 13, 2003, 10:32 PM
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There are alot of good observations here. Thanks Phil, for opening the discussion on this. As tragic as accidents can be, they happen, and better to learn from them than try to make them go away...
I'm newer to trad, and learned first only passive gear, so I tend to look at the rock first, rather than the cam's spring, so here's my 2 cents.
Here's some observations/questions it seems no one has made yet:
Seems to me the Black was unstable, slid out with minimal shock. Makes me wonder, for very small cams like that, where the action is minimal and spring tension is less, could there be a gear effect like with the grigri, where you need a bit of shock load to 'set' the camming action? If there is no load, in a situ where the cam is sitting in an outward flare, could a slow even pull cause it to fail?
Looking at the Green, it looks as if from below it might have appeared OK, as the bottom lobe seemed sprung fine, and it may have silhouetted the view of the overextended top lobe. If she placed it at or above her head on the way up, she may have thought it was cammed more than it was.
Also, from the side wear after tearing, it looks like the cam twisted when it ripped. I wonder if without cam stops, a cam unequally balanced over a crystal or imperfection would have a tendancy to twist, which would counter the camming action a bit. If the cam walked down a bit of a protrusion or crystal at that moment, it'd slip without camming. If it was shallow enough, bye bye.
I say 'I wonder' here, cause I do. If anyone can touch on this, please do!
Thanks, and my thoughts to her and hers today.
peace
-p
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philbox
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Jun 15, 2003, 10:38 PM
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In reply to: Here's some observations/questions it seems no one has made yet: Seems to me the Black was unstable, slid out with minimal shock. Makes me wonder, for very small cams like that, where the action is minimal and spring tension is less, could there be a gear effect like with the grigri, where you need a bit of shock load to 'set' the camming action? If there is no load, in a situ where the cam is sitting in an outward flare, could a slow even pull cause it to fail?
The Black alien was certainly placed extremely poorly. It was never gunna hold. Only two lobes of that cam were ever in contact with the rock. This cam I believe was placed in desperation and hope. During a rap inspection we simply could not find any position where there would have been the remotest chance that a black Alien would have held. You are correct when you state that micro gear has to be set for it to hold.
I don`t believe that a cam will fail from a steady slow pull where the cam is set in an outward flare.
In reply to: Looking at the Green, it looks as if from below it might have appeared OK, as the bottom lobe seemed sprung fine, and it may have silhouetted the view of the overextended top lobe. If she placed it at or above her head on the way up, she may have thought it was cammed more than it was.
She had the luxury of standing on a platform and placing the green Alien at around elbow height. As a matter of fact she could have set up a bivy on the ledge she was standing on. I believe that she had ample opportunity to set this cam correctly but subsequent to her setting this cam and as she moved past it the quickdraw wiggled the cam in to a position where two lobes on one side were fully opened.
In reply to: Also, from the side wear after tearing, it looks like the cam twisted when it ripped. I wonder if without cam stops, a cam unequally balanced over a crystal or imperfection would have a tendancy to twist, which would counter the camming action a bit. If the cam walked down a bit of a protrusion or crystal at that moment, it'd slip without camming. If it was shallow enough, bye bye. I say 'I wonder' here, cause I do. If anyone can touch on this, please do! Thanks, and my thoughts to her and hers today. peace -p
Cam stops would have had no effect on the outcome of this accident, except if a Black Diamond Camalot had been used. Cam stops on any other brand will allow the head to rotate around the axle. Sure the cams cannot rotate past being fully open but they do not prevent the head rotating on the axle once fully open.
The rock at this cliff is not characterised with crystals, generally the cracks are fairly smooth. The main problems with this placement is that the block that the cam was placed behind could move slightly and the cam walked to a position that was less than optimal. In other words this placement had everything working against it.
As stated previously there were better and much more bomb proof options that could and should have been identified close by.
...Phil...
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