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dingus
Jul 17, 2003, 4:14 PM
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In reply to: French links? Are these really made in France? Should we be calling them "freedom links"? Har har...
You get those at Der Veenersnitzl don't you Herr Schroder?
DMT
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dingus
Jul 17, 2003, 4:18 PM
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In reply to: Dingus, I like Jay's rule of thumb. 1/4 turn past hand tight or thereabouts. I also add a bit of loctite if I'm worried about them going bye bye (although some folks will torque the piss out of them anyhow, ruining the hanger and maybe damaging the bolt).
Right. That was my thinking too. Tight enough to dissuade casual theft... not so tight that the link or hanger is ruined. Like you said, if someone is intent on stripping the route, presumably they will have the tools necessary to do so. No matter how tight the link, if you remove the hanger the link goes with it!
Cheers and thanks,
DMT
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moondog
Jul 17, 2003, 5:00 PM
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They look flimsy and I usually prefer more then one for redundancy but those things won't fail unless they wear out from ropes being pulled through.
Actually they are very strong (16.6 kN - stronger than the load required by the CE harness standard) and when properly used, one is more than enough. That said, Aluminium rap rings are one of the most misused pieces of gear out there. They were designed to facilitate pulling ropes on "adventure" climbs and not for heavy use at crags (that's why they're so light). It is generally irresponsible to place one in any frequent or high use area because they wear and weaken very rapidly from rope pulls. AL rap rings were designed to be used only once.
hank
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moondog
Jul 17, 2003, 5:06 PM
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But what do you think of me tightening them with a wrench? Good? Bad? Who cares?
I always wrench-tighten mine when I can. Most commonly used sizes of MR are designed to be tightened to 2.5 Nm of torque (oh yeah! tech city!) but I just tighten a little past finger tight - all that's needed. Overtightening can weaken the little thingies, but I don't have any data on this.
hank
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moondog
Jul 17, 2003, 5:18 PM
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My money says there the same stock, same process, and if we're lucky, they get a bit of load testing? Petzl rep out there (Hank?)? I'll bet they just cost more. Mallion. French for overpriced quick links?
Not sure about stock, but the process is probably very similar (meet MR roboto!). Looks like the MR brand factory does random batch testing, but certainly not an individual test. Details:
http://www.peguet.fr/peguet/gb/qualite/tests.html
I first inspect and then generally use just about any link I find hanging around out there, but I *buy* MR brand just 'cuz I get such a great price on them and the quality is tops. I believe just about anyone can buy in bulk straight from the MR distributor and get a price break ( provided they buy enough). Bulk is good way to buy climbing consumables like chalk, bolts, etc! Check at http://www.wichard-usa.com/ClimbingSafety/maillon_rapide/index.htm if interested in overpriced MRs. If nothing else, you might find a special new shape that strikes yer fancy!
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tonydevo
Jul 17, 2003, 7:17 PM
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Did I imply my test was 3sigma or even remotely accurate? no. I simply tested a random link with pretty severe loads and reported my results. If some ignorant person chooses to accept my info as gospel then i'll have chuckle when I read their Darwin Award. This is the internet believe what you want and take some responsibility for your self.
I feel safe using 3/8" quicklinks and 3/8" grade 40 chain for climbing anchors provided they are only for lowering and rappelling. Dynamic loads on hardware store steel is a scary thought. Do you feel using nuts and cams rated to 5kn? (RP's, WC Zeroes). :?:
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jt512
Jul 17, 2003, 7:39 PM
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In reply to: Did I imply my test was 3sigma or even remotely accurate? no. I simply tested a random link with pretty severe loads and reported my results. If some ignorant person chooses to accept my info as gospel then i'll have chuckle when I read their Darwin Award. This is the internet believe what you want and take some responsibility for your self.
If your test was useless why did you post it? Do you think the typical 15-y/o newbie on this site has a clue about 3-sigma testing. Most can barely spell their own names. Take some responsibility for your actions, including your posts. People should be able to rely on what they read here. If not, what's the point?
-Jay
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tonydevo
Jul 17, 2003, 8:25 PM
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Reliable internet info? You're dreaming. Ideas, facts and info posted on RC.com are to be viewed with the highest skepticism due to the fact any idiot like you and me can post seemingly legit info on here. My little test is 100% more useful then a post of "I think a link will hold but I only climb in the gym" but it also 100% useless because, as you stated, it's not a worthwhile test . If you choose to jeoprodize your safety by counting on only the opionions of RC.com users you are truly doomed regardless of age. I posted the info in good faith as a guide for further inquiry and inlclude my email address with all posts you can contact me anytime. What's the point? internet forum posts are at best a tip of the iceberg when it comes to all things related to climbing safety.
Consult a AMGA/ACMG Guide, Metal engineer or local guru if you need the full and real answer. Don't listen to me or Jay.
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tradklime
Jul 17, 2003, 9:33 PM
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It's already been stated but I will reiterate. There is enough evidence in the real world to validate hardware quicklinks are fine. They have been used in climbing situations for years and there is no documented failure of a properly closed quicklink.
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jt512
Jul 17, 2003, 10:46 PM
Post #60 of 67
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In reply to: Reliable internet info? You're dreaming. Ideas, facts and info posted on RC.com are to be viewed with the highest skepticism due to the fact any idiot like you and me can post seemingly legit info on here. My little test is 100% more useful then a post of "I think a link will hold but I only climb in the gym" but it also 100% useless because, as you stated, it's not a worthwhile test . If you choose to jeoprodize your safety by counting on only the opionions of RC.com users you are truly doomed regardless of age. I posted the info in good faith as a guide for further inquiry and inlclude my email address with all posts you can contact me anytime. What's the point? internet forum posts are at best a tip of the iceberg when it comes to all things related to climbing safety. Consult a AMGA/ACMG Guide, Metal engineer or local guru if you need the full and real answer. Don't listen to me or Jay.
The problem with your post is this. You wrote: "In conclusion: Our test was not remotely scientific but the results speak for themselves. These are the small, thin 5/16" links and they held all that repeated force."
You discaim it, calling it unscientifc, but then say that the results speak for themselves anyway. This is misleading and irresponsible.
This forum is as good or as bad as we make it. If we use a little self-discipline and post responsibly then the forums will be useful sources of information; if we don't then it will just be a sandbox to play in, or worse, a box of quicksand.
Internet forums can indeed be reliable sources of information. If you don't believe this, search the rec.climbing archives. They are full of good information that is unavaible anywhere else. You cannot get away with posting bullshit there; and therefore, the information there is useful. If we policed ourselves like that here, this site would be more useful. Like I said, take some responsibility for your post. Your post would have been fine if you had seriously disclaimed your results, instead of talking out of both sides of your mouth, potentially misleading others.
-Jay
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paganmonkeyboy
Jul 17, 2003, 11:09 PM
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In reply to: The best part of all this? I get paid to do this.
dude ! so jealous...need to find a gig like that one. They hiring there ?
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coldclimb
Jul 17, 2003, 11:16 PM
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lol, this is insane. People just love arguing for the sake of arguing.
So the facts have been shown: the small 5/16ths quicklinks can break if not closed properly under the stress of a lead fall. This is obvious. JT is right.
But the subject in question was whether it's safe to bail or rappel off them. This is perfectly safe, because the forces are tiny compared to lead falls. This is obvious. I am right. :D
This thread is hilarious! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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watersprite
Jul 18, 2003, 5:19 PM
Post #63 of 67
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wonderful!! are most climbers engineers?
well. I have to go work on my car.... anyone know how to replace a valve cover gasket?
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biff
Jul 18, 2003, 7:47 PM
Post #64 of 67
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I found Tony's info very useful .. It basically says taht a well made 5/16" quick link is very..very strong .. strong enough to take a prety good fall, even when open. .. which is what I expected, given my experiance pulling logs and such behind a boat using similar hardware.
Around here many of the old routes (Pre 1996) have a set of chains at the anchors with a quick link similar to the one Tony used in his test. I have been raping off a single quick link (with chains to both anchor bolts) for my entire climbing life, and this little experiment makes me feel more secure about my decision to do so.
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brianinslc
Jul 18, 2003, 7:53 PM
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[quote="biff"]I found Tony's info very useful .. It basically says taht a well made 5/16" quick link is very..very strong .. strong enough to take a prety good fall, even when open. .. which is what I expected, given my experiance pulling logs and such behind a boat using similar hardware./quote]
I didn't find the info very useful...but...pretty "interesting". In a quasi "gut feel" kinda way.
No such thing as "bad data". Interpret as you wish...
Thanks for the data and effort, Tony.
Brian in SLC
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mikeehartley
Jul 18, 2003, 8:08 PM
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On tightening and later removing quick links... I have been doing it for many years in work situations. Not problem AS LONG AS you lube the threads. Spraying something like WD40 on the visible threads doesn't get you too much. You have to unscrew the collar, flood the cup that is created so that the internal threads get lubed, and then grease ("Never Seaze", etc) the external threads that you can see. This will get you many years in all but environments like the northwest.
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ihategrigris
Aug 10, 2005, 7:10 AM
Post #67 of 67
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[quote="pico23"]In reply to: . Their is simply no comparison to If you are talking about the rolled and not welded aluminum rings on the market, those suckers are stronger then the old steel welded ones. There is nothing to fail on them since they are a single piece of metal. They look flimsy and I usually prefer more then one for redundancy but those things won't fail unless they wear out from ropes being pulled through.
Any aluminum piece, welded or continuous will eventually fail due to fatigue. Eventually, especially under heavy use, even the best rolled aluminum ring will fail. You should always remember this, and if you see some pretty ratty looking equipment up there, such as rusty chains or hangers, be suspicious of the rolled aluminum rap rings.
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