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jake83
Jan 28, 2005, 10:47 PM
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Lately someone has been retro-bolting a bunch of climbs at jackson falls not to mention they are doing a horrible job at it. For example they are placing bolts 4-5 feet off the ground where they aren't even effective also they are placing bolts in dangerous positions( for example right above flakes that way if(when) the leader takes a fall the biner on a QD could snap in half over the edge of the flake,putting climbers in danger). On top of this it is not Jackson's Gym it is Jackson falls, bolts should progressively become further apart as you go higher they do not need to be 4 feet apart all the way to the anchors like in a gym!!! got to go. Any thoughts or oppions? Does any body have a bolting commitee they must go through at their local crag to put up sport routes etc...?
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organic
Feb 14, 2005, 5:19 PM
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Yeah it sucks, why take away all the bold routes? I mean there are already tons and tons of sport climbs at jackson so why bolt routes that have questionable gear, just because teh gear is questionable. Stop the grid and retro bolting of Jackson Falls!!!(*&#!
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jake83
Feb 17, 2005, 5:44 PM
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I found out that the character that is doing all the bolting isn't from Illinois. Hes not even from this area of the country. Hes from frickin' Oregon.His name is Jeff Gizell and supposedly he is doing all this bolting to make it "safer" for climbers. Hell why don't we just start grid bolting, chipping and labeling the rock with spray paint.Because we don't have any ethics in Southern Illinois!! If anyone disagrees with me you should check out the ethics issue of Rock and Ice. The other day I asked a person who caled themself a "climber" a question. My question was "What are the climbing ethics in S.I. or do we even have any?". The response I got pissed me off so much! The response I got was "We(the climbing community in S.I.) are too unorganized to have ethics". Since when was climbing an organized sport and since when did you have to be organized to have ethics? This comment made me feel stupid just having heard it!
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jake83
Feb 17, 2005, 5:48 PM
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Everyone should definitely check out the link to le-mank that shank put up. Our mighty good leader and local rep. for the access fund(?) dosen't seen to care!
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mistymountainhop
Feb 17, 2005, 5:58 PM
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Jeff as I believe, actually lived in So Ill for quite some time before becoming a guide in Oregon. Hes trying to move down here and in the meantime hes turning jackson into a giant zoo. His boredom is slowly turning jackson from the chill place i found when i first came eight years ago to a playground for chicago and STL area gymrats. As we all know any So Ill climbing area has a great potential for overcrowding and the fact that dozens of easy routes under 5.10 are springing up all over the place doesnt help that fact.
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andy_lemon
Feb 17, 2005, 6:11 PM
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Well, just to clarify a few things. You seem to ask the right questions just not to the right people.
1) The local Access Fund rep is not Eric Ulner. He stepped down recently and handed the position over to Nathan Holmes, owner of Vertical eXcape Climbing Center in Evansville, Indiana. The local rep position (I believe) doesn't just cover So Il, it also covers Indiana and W. Kentucky. This change over came recently... but your next question is what is he doing? Planning on rebolting a few worn out anchors at Jackson is one thing on the list. Not to mention trying to organize the construction of a safer approach at Jackson Falls, rather than the batman walk down the rope.
2) There are ethics in Southern Illinois. If you want an in depth look at the history and a list of ethics then read the new guidebook that is being sold on verticalheartland.com
3) So Ill climbing is organized a bit more than your giving us credit for. There is the Illinois Climber's Association which does have periodic meetings in Mt. Vernon Illinois to discuss issues. They also have a seat on the NFS (John Payne?). They have also been around since the early '90's but most people don't know anything about them because they haven't been climbing long enough and they look on the internet for information about them (and the ICA doesn't have a website, yet).
So, I can't help you with the Jeff F. situation as I've only climbed a couple of his new routes. If you have any further questions about climbing in SoIll I would be glad to get you an answer.
later,
Andy
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jake83
Feb 18, 2005, 9:51 PM
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"So Ill climbing is organized a bit more than your giving us credit for. There is the Illinois Climber's Association which does have periodic meetings in Mt. Vernon Illinois to discuss issues.".Andy I don't know where exactly you live but I live about thirty minutes from Jackson along with the rest of the climbing areas around. So that us you used includes me.So I do know that soill climbing organizations are not organized. The SICA or ICA members are basically retired or inactive.For example John Payne. I spoke with him a couple of weeks ago and he hadn't been climbing in quite some time. I don't want people to misunderstand that I'm not against bolting. I am against retro-bolting climbs just because the bolts aren't four feet apart or they have questionable gear(that is supposed to be the calculated risk in climbing). Isn't the adventure,risk,and rush why climbers get into climbing anyways?! Some people misunderstand my point of view as an elitist point of view but I don't have a problem with bolting 5.6 or whatever. However I do have a problem with people bolting perfectly good cracks or routes with gear placements(questionable or not). That is just part of climbing the mental aspect as well as the physical. If you can't climb 5.10 or what have you then work on it push yourself phsyically and mentally. Toprope it and get the sequence. Don't put the bolts that much closer together or you might as well be toproping!
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ericulner
Feb 20, 2005, 3:12 AM
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Actually, his name is Jeff Frizzell, not Gizell. He lives in Carbondale, again. He did use to live in Oregon. Prior to that, he lived in CO. Prior to that, he lived in Carbondale, IL. What does Jeff’s origin matter, anyway?
What I’m seeing in this thread and a similar one at Le-Mank.com is a bunch of fairly narrowly focused points of view.
I really wish the RC.com moderators would move this thread to a different heading. I completely reject the premise projected by placing it under Access Issues and Closures. This is not about an access issue at Jackson Falls. It is entirely about peripheral issues relative to sport climbing, an accepted activity.
Jackson Falls has a good number of sport routes, the majority of which were in place prior to many of your beginnings as climbers. The collective gripe you all have isn’t the fact that Jackson has sport routes. Your gripes are about peripheral issues pertaining to sport climbing- How low/high to place the first safety-anchor, retro-placing, etc. You’re whining about issues about which you simply don’t understand the facts or history. I’m trying to figure out why you’d resort to airing these complaints so publicly, and with such apparent confidence in your presumptuous opinions, rather than just drop a private email or phone call to me to chat about all of this or to get Jeff’s contact info for a conversation with him. That would have been a better way to deal your questions. But instead, you’ve turned your questions into complaints and accusations in public view so as to give land managers a chance to see climbers in a negative light. Do you honestly think that this forum, Le-Mank’s forum, and other climbing forums are only read by climbers? Managers have computers too. But the potential for damage that you’ve created has already been done. Hence, some damage control is in order. No thanks to the whiners. Maybe you really are trying to create an access issue. No one should thank you for this.
Or, perhaps some of the whining really isn’t about climbing ethics and styles. Maybe it’s more about elevating feelings of self-importance, and this medium is your vehicle of choice to do so.
No route that Jeff has placed safety-anchors on was done without permission from the FA party. I’ve seen a lot of whining about the routes at Spleef Peak. “Master Marley” is one of the routes in question. The route was originally a 45-foot high boulder problem done by Jim Thurmond in the 1980’s, as were most of his routes on that particular formation. “Marley” was subsequently bolted by a climber from St. Louis later that same year. The route was poorly bolted, but Thurmond let it go because of the pain in the butt and time factor. So the anchors remained. Thurmond agreed that it could remain a sport lead. I never bothered fixing it either for the same reasons as Jim’s. I did lead the route on occasion, but never without muttering about the botch job the route had. Fast forward about 17 years. Jeff Frizzell noticed the botch job and offered to fix it. Obviously, the offer was happily accepted and the deed was done, except for final hole patching. With the route barely fixed, the whiners appeared on the Internet, bitching about Jeff retro-bolting, leaving empty holes, and taking away the adventure of the route. Give me a break. If Jim or I had fixed the route 17 years ago, none of you would have known about it. Let’s say we had fixed it. Would you have then, 17 years after the fact, begun whining about the anchors needing to be changed to the exact locations that the St. Louis dude placed them? No.
As for the empty holes, it was simply a time issue. If they bother you so badly, invest some of YOUR OWN time into the canyon, close your pie hole, and patch them yourself.
< bolts should progressively become further apart as you go higher they do not need to be 4 feet apart all the way to the anchors like in a gym!!! >
If you had any experience at all in opening sport routes, you would understand that each route is unique (especially with the rock type at Jackson Falls). Fixed gear placement locations are not decided with a measuring tape. Fall zone, stance, previous placement, next placement, stone quality, etc. are some of the factors in making location decisions. Your 4 feet statement is an exaggeration anyway. Spacing of fixed gear is a peripheral issue relative to sport climbing. You climb sport routes at Jackson Falls. Why the need to rant like this on the internet in public forum? Again, this only makes us all look bad to land managers.
< Yeah it sucks, why take away all the bold routes? I mean there are already tons and tons of sport climbs at jackson so why bolt routes that have questionable gear, just because teh gear is questionable. Stop the grid and retro bolting of Jackson Falls!!!>
What bold routes? They’re sport routes. Sport climbing is an accepted activity at Jackson Falls. Grid bolting? I don’t think you understand the true definition of grid bolting, because it ain’t at Jackson Falls. You need to travel to some sport climbing areas out west to learn and see the definition.
Why, upon your first visit to Jackson, did you not complain about the proxity of "Hidden Treasure", "Lovely Arete", and "Velvet Green"? Three routes near each other and not a grid. Jeff has done nothing "worse" than these three.
< Because we don't have any ethics in Southern Illinois!! If anyone disagrees with me you should check out the ethics issue of Rock and Ice. The other day I asked a person who caled themself a "climber" a question. My question was "What are the climbing ethics in S.I. or do we even have any?". The response I got pissed me off so much! The response I got was "We(the climbing community in S.I.) are too unorganized to have ethics". Since when was climbing an organized sport and since when did you have to be organized to have ethics? This comment made me feel stupid just having heard it! >
Climbing Ethics & Area Policies
Please do not glue, chip, or manufacture holds on the cliffs and boulders in Southern Illinois. Please heed individual area ethics and regulations. They are not all the same, especially regarding fixed safety anchor use. A current description of fixed anchor use per area follows:
Giant City State Park- The two fixed top anchors at Shelter One were placed years back, with the intention of saving what trees are left. Otherwise, current policy,“No permanent anchors allowed”, can be found here: www.dnr.state.il.us/lands/Landmgt/PARKS/R5/GC.htm#Rock
Ferne Clyffe State Park- Fixed anchors are currently not allowed.
Cedar Bluff- No new fixed anchors are allowed. Current anchors stay. Cedar is a satellite location of Ferne Clyffe.
Draper’s Bluff- Private property. You must sign in/out at the parking lot kiosk in front of the bluff, regardless of whether or not you climb. You’re agreeing to the policies posted, so please read them.
Jackson Falls- Shawnee National Forest. “…Placement of permanent structures used in climbing and rappelling, including pitons, requires prior approval by the Forest Service...” -USDA Forest Service Amended Management Plan, Shawnee National Forest.
In 2001, the Fixed Safety Anchor Committee of the Illinois Climbers Association strongly recommended the following when placing fixed safety anchors:
- Adhere to policies per area.
- Consult with local climbers prior to placing, removing, or replacing fixed safety anchors.
- Have an experienced person with you if you do not have experience placing fixed protection hardware.
- All fixed safety anchors, new and replacements, should be stainless steel and ˝-inch in diameter by 3 ˝+ inches in length.
When possible, reduce impact on cliff top ecology by using fixed anchors above routes. Jackson Falls is an excellent example of greatly spared cliff top ecology due to the use of fixed anchors. Giant City and Ferne Clyffe State Parks are excellent examples of greatly impacted (nearly denuded) cliff top ecology due to the lack of fixed anchors. To this day, the upper rim ecology of Jackson Falls is basically unspoiled because of route lead-ability and top anchors. If it was a top-rope only area, that would not be the case.
I’ll assume that you’re talking about me in this statement. I’d say thanks for referring to me as a mighty good guy, but you seem disingenuous. Andy Lemon is correct about me stepping out of the Regional Coordinator position with the Access Fund. Nathan Holmes took the position at the end of 2003. Of all the things to say about me- I don’t seem to care? Purely baseless and really, quite tasteless.
< Jeff as I believe, actually lived in So Ill for quite some time before becoming a guide in Oregon. Hes trying to move down here and in the meantime hes turning jackson into a giant zoo. His boredom is slowly turning jackson from the chill place i found when i first came eight years ago to a playground for chicago and STL area gymrats. As we all know any So Ill climbing area has a great potential for overcrowding and the fact that dozens of easy routes under 5.10 are springing up all over the place doesnt help that fact.>
Jeff isn’t “trying” to move here. He already does. Ok. So you first arrived at Jackson around 1997? At that point in time, there existed well over 200 routes at Jackson, and you were “chill” with that. Jeff has opened maybe 25-30 routes, and suddenly the place is a zoo. Right. You are simply uninformed. If ever the term “zoo” could have loosely been used for Jackson, it was during the place’s heyday years of 1989-1991, when 75-80 cars in the parking lot was a common count, and far fewer routes had to be shared by all. Even then, the place was not considered that crowded by any fair measure. Zoo is Devil’s Lake on a nice weekend. Does anyone else notice that you seem to not be counting yourself among those in the “crowd”? I take your statement to mean that if you had the power to suddenly zap Jackson Falls such that the existing numbers of climbers could not grow, you would. Hmm. What if I could’ve-should’ve-would’ve, say, in 1996? Too bad for you, crowd member. In the early 1990s, I heard a couple people bitch about all the newbies in the canyon, and you weren’t even around yet. Now you’re doing it. I suppose that around 2010, someone will post a good whine about how Jackson just isn’t the same chill place that it was in the beginning days of 2006. Your statement that inferred Jeff’s new “dozens of easy routes under 5.10” is simply not correct. I submit that your exaggeration is for chest puffing purposes. The under 5.10 crowd should berate you for being an ability-snob.
< Andy I don't know where exactly you live but I live about thirty minutes from Jackson along with the rest of the climbing areas around. So that us you used includes me.So I do know that soill climbing organizations are not organized. The SICA or ICA members are basically retired or inactive.For example John Payne. I spoke with him a couple of weeks ago and he hadn't been climbing in quite some time.>
The majority of climbers don’t care to be organized. Climbing organizations tend to get “organized” for two reasons: crises and good will projects. Except for this peripheral issues of bolt spacing and where to open sport routes (new spot or old TR?) that you’re trying to paint as a crisis, there are no crises currently in any of the Southern Illinois climbing areas. There is currently no good will project to be done at Jackson Falls. I know that due to my still currently ACTIVE and cyclically time-consuming relationship with Shawnee management that has been ongoing since 1991. You’re welcome.
I do believe an Illinois Climbers Association meeting sometime soon would be good to have. I would much rather deal with questions, thankless whining, and other related matters in person at a meeting rather than on an Internet forum. Creating dirty laundry, artificial as it is, and airing it in public does no organization good.
Now to move this along to something more positive: If anyone would be willing to help develop a web site for the Illinois Climbers Association, please drop me a line. Previously interested people have not come through with their offered assistance. I’ve secured the URL www.illinoisclimbersassociation.org
Eric Ulner
eulner@verticalheartland.com
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scgreene2000
Feb 20, 2005, 4:38 AM
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In reply to: ...a playground for chicago and STL area gymrats.
Darn! I live in Chicago and I go to a climbing gym and well... well I, I was thinking about going down to "SoIll" to climb but I guess I better not. :?
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jds100
Feb 20, 2005, 4:55 PM
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To Jake: apparently you've not invested the time to learn from, or even communicate your concerns to the most informed climber in the area. You seem to want to claim some status as a local, but you don't want to take the time to really get involved. Instead of investigating opportunities to geniunly learn about what is really going on at Jackson, or to possibly productively voice your concerns, you've chosen to whine on a public forum, throwing around misinformation and inuendo. How wise and brave a young man you must truly be in person.
In reply to: I found out that the character that is doing all the bolting isn't from Illinois. Hes not even from this area of the country. Hes from frickin' Oregon.
Does Jeff, or anyone else who's not from southern Illinois, need your permission to climb at Jackson? May he lead climb, or is he restricted to top-roping? May he boulder there, or just rope-climb, if even that? Perhaps he should be restricted to hiking. Or, better yet, let's make him just read about Jackson in the guidebook, and not let him -or any or them damn feriners- go down there! After all, this is your place to climb (even though you had nothing to do with discovering it, developing it, working with the Forest Service to keep good relations with cilmbers, spending your money and time cleaning it, replacing dangerous bolts, installing a new kiosk, helping with negotiations and fund-raising for sanitation facilities, etc. etc. etc. Did I miss anything?)
How come people like you always like to jump to public criticism first, before they make much real effort to contact people who might be able to answer and help with a situation? Another affect of your whiney finger-pointing "somebody make this problem go away" approach is your insipid insidious complaining, direct or indirect, about the people who've actually gotten involved, tried to organize, and tried to be productive:
In reply to: Our mighty good leader and local rep. for the access fund(?) dosen't seen to care!
In reply to: and supposedly he is doing all this bolting to make it "safer" for climbers.
So, just to be sure I understand your vast devotion to and interest in climbing ethics: In reply to: The other day I asked a person who caled themself a "climber" a question. In reply to: If anyone disagrees with me you should check out the ethics issue of Rock and Ice.
In reply to: For example John Payne. I spoke with him a couple of weeks ago and he hadn't been climbing in quite some time.
And, as far as your general criticism of the ICA or SICA, I don't recall seeing any of your previoius posts calling for organization, or for a roundtable discussion of ethics and concerns about climbing in southern Illinois - In reply to: Does any body have a bolting commitee they must go through at their local crag to put up sport routes etc...?
In reply to: This comment made me feel stupid just having heard it!
Nice expression of your inexperience and uninformed uneducated opinions about how routes should be bolted and developed: In reply to: bolts should progressively become further apart as you go higher In reply to: If you can't climb 5.10 or what have you then work on it push yourself phsyically and mentally. Toprope it and get the sequence.
(By the way, I haven't seen the routes that Jeff has re-bolted, nor the new routes he has put up for everyone to climb, using his own money to pay for the hardware, but I eminently trust Eric Ulner's judgment. And, guess what: he's a local, too!! Wow! Hey!?! Maybe you could get in touch with him! Ever hear of him? Here: E-R-I-C U-L-N-E-R. Write that in your little crayon box so you'll see it everyday and remember it.)
(It is also possible that low-placed bolts provide a directional for the belayer, to keep the rope close in to the cliff face, so that the lead climber doesn't get flipped by the line going back to the belayer if and when he/she falls. I haven't seen the routes and bolts mentioned, but your judgment and understanding of route protection is severely lacking, so I tend to trust Jeff's experience far more. And, just to be very clear: I don't believe Jeff has bolted routes that have cracks that can be protected with trad gear.)
Make sure you show Butch Dunn, your boss and owner of PackLite Outdoor Gear in Carbondale, this thread, and tell him that you're such a devoted advocate and activist for climbing interests in southern Illinois that you get on RC.com to spray your crap around publicly, insinuating yourself as a local and advertising your employment at his shop. I'm sure he'll appreciate it.
And, Misty: did you ever hear (I assume that don't really read that much) that great minds think alike? Apparently the same is true for the elitist, ill-informed, and over-opinionated, as well.
If either of you, or anyone else, has any true concerns about anything going on relative to climbing in southern Illinois, there is absolutely no excuse not to make the most use of the greatest resource for information and advice, right there at your fingertips, and that is: Eric Ulner. Call him or email him. Get informed first. Then you can get involved productively. If your interests and passions are genuine, then channel them into useful veins of activity, instead of spewing moronically on internet forums, where you can hide behind an anonymous nickname. There is work to be done. There is much to learn about the rich history of southern Illinois climbing, including its ethical evolution. Don't assume that you are the first or only to raise an issue, and don't assume that you are the first to have a sense of 'ownership' of a climbing area. You are by no means, by no stretch of the imagination, the first to do anything at Jackson Falls. If you establish a new route: congratulations. But remeber: there have been dozens of people long before you who have put up way more than you will ever hope to. That's not an insult. It is simply the facts of development of the area, and you would enjoy Jackson Falls and the other areas in southern Illinois much more, I believe, if you acquainted yourselves with a deeper awareness of the history of the climbers who've come before you.
How rude it is to suggest that any area is becoming so "crowded" that "something needs to be done." If something had been "done" by the climbers who developed Jackson -and other areas- then you and your ilk wouldn't be there to complain about it now. If your actual complaints pertain to trash pickup, or trail erosion, or user group conflict, or whatever, then, again, contact the people who have the background in dealing with this for years to discuss it, and get informed. Define your complaints accurately. Bitching about "crowds" just makes you sound elitist and possessive of "your special place." Get over it. Crowds, if there are any, aren't the problem. Damage and trash are the problems; these things are better dealt with in ways other than trying to horde the resource and insulting other climbers (even they can't climb your mighty 5.10).
Seriously, if you're genuinely interested and passionate, then, "Thank you." But, get involved the right way. It is far too easy to do that, especially in your area, so there's no excuse for not doing it right.
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scgreene2000
Feb 20, 2005, 5:04 PM
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I got an idea. If you need "BOLD" routes then don't use the bolts!
Thank you for your clarity and understanding: Eric Ulner and "jds100".
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organic
Feb 21, 2005, 12:16 AM
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In reply to: I got an idea. If you need "BOLD" routes then don't use the bolts! Thank you for your clarity and understanding: Eric Ulner and "jds100".
I do trad as much as I can but especially at Jackson cracks are often wet and/or dirty.
I was wrong to say Jackson is being grid bolted because most of the new routes are great lines but retro-bolting seems to be a growing issue especially on some of the routes by master marley. It is funny how "The Tin", I think it is called, on the arete type feature 5.10 FSA Jim Thurmound I think, beautifully great line with pretty bad gear has not been bolted but the others on the face next to marley have. Was this on purpose? It seems ethics are being contradicted and there is no clear line for people to follow? Does Jackson have any ethics about retro-bolting? I have also seen other bolts placed within a foot or so of a perfectly protectable part of the rock(I don't know names as I think it is a new route(maybe) it is on a face facing directly at you if you walk from the north falls toward cheerio bowl, it is on the face which has a kind of dihedral crack into a roof(kind of resembles The Nose somewhat)) anyway this is next to a protectable spot why? The route has been wet so i have not been able to climb it. So Retro-bolting what is the consensus?
PS. Not trying to start a war here I respect so much what everyone has done for Jackson and the surrounding areas especially Eric and Jeff the bolter and jds100. If I had more time I would help out at Jackson but because of school and distance I tend to climb at Giant City and other such areas more local to CDale. If you see someone cleaning boulders out at Giant City it is probably me.
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ericulner
Feb 21, 2005, 5:21 AM
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< was wrong to say Jackson is being grid bolted because most of the new routes are great lines but retro-bolting seems to be a growing issue especially on some of the routes by master marley.>
Two routes just right of “Marley” were done and now they’re a growing issue? Perhaps a growing issue about a non-issue between about three people. YOUR issue seems to be with the retro aspect. Why do you care whether or not someone already bouldered/soloed them first in the 1980s? To anyone who shows up at Jackson for the first time without any prior knowledge of the place, these 2 routes next to “Marley” would fit right in with the rest of the canyon. I think you have a perception problem based on your emotions.
“The Tin” was a 20-foot warm-up boulder problem in the 1980s. The upper half- easy slab relative to the lower half- was considered a cruise. That route was bouldered so many times by so many people, that we simply weren’t interested in it as a sport route. There’s nothing funny or odd about that. Conversely, the other two routes near “Master Marley” were typically top-roped or occasionally led with necky gear that I certainly would not want to rely on for a catch. Now they’re 9ish/10ish sport routes that will receive more traffic, which will keep the routes in a cleaner state, ie- more enjoyable by most climbers’ standards at Jackson Falls.
Whether or not these routes were bolted has nothing do to with ethics. It has everything to do with, “Hey, those are a couple of nice lines that would be fun lead routes (in a canyon where this activity is well established)”. Pretty much the same statement made prior to the opening of every other lead route at Jackson.
The bottom line is, people will not always agree on what constitutes “perfectly protectable”. Jackson Falls is an area where there is a blend of route types- trad, sport, and a mix of the two. The canyon has long been established this way. My method of protecting a route when opening it has been/will be different from the method the other half-dozen people would’ve done. That’s right- there’s been only about a half-dozen of us in the past 19 years at Jackson who’ve actually opened ten or more routes in the canyon. Everyone else has been a dabbler. We’ve had a few differences of opinion, but none really that we weren’t able to resolve amiably. There has to be some flexibility amongst us in a multi-style canyon. Part of that includes going to the source and not spraying on the web.
Maybe not, but you and the others have certainly and unnecessarily hurled stones.
< here I respect so much what everyone has done for Jackson and the surrounding areas especially Eric and Jeff the bolter and jds100. >
Your statement of respect might be taken more seriously if you didn’t take the unnecessary attempt at a stab- “Jeff the bolter”. You do know his last name, but you’ve certainly never seen his trad route resume. It’d take you years to catch up.
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organic
Feb 21, 2005, 6:07 AM
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No stab I just thought jds100's real name is Jeff also, correct me if I am wrong so I was just saying that for sake of identification geesh dude why the heck are you so freaking hostile. I did not flame anyone just asking questions and what the heck does this have to do with my trad resume! And it is not 3 people, go out to Jackson and talk to people climbing there the thing is there is no communication between the climbers and the developers, so we all complain because no one knows what is going on. There seems to be a big division growing between the younger climbers and the "old folk" and it is hurting the area, hurting the atomosphere. Why not stop on by Jackson one saturday night and drink a few beers around the campfire, that is probably one of the best ways you can give to the young climbing community. Devil's Lake may be a zoo but the reason people love it is because 'old schoolers' show up and hang out, kids can actually learn a thing or two, learn area ethics, learn how to be bold, learn how to climb and respect the crag.
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andy_lemon
Feb 21, 2005, 4:04 PM
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In reply to: we all complain because no one knows what is going on. Why not stop on by Jackson one saturday night and drink a few beers around the campfire, that is probably one of the best ways you can give to the young climbing community.
There is no need to start a flame war on the internet over new routes at Jackson and no one telling you what is going on. In reality, no one has to tell you what is going on. I'll agree that it is hard to understand "where that came from" when walking around a crag without an updated version of the guidebook. But to think the FA is actually going to walk into your camp (or anybody elses) in the middle of night is ludicrious. These guys have kids, jobs, and lives. You can possibly make the same case, but then sit back and think for a minute... when was the last time these guys spent a night at Jackson Falls, while our college asses are sitting there drinking beer right now. I'm sure they would prefer throwing logs into a fire rather than changing babies diapers. If you want info, you shouldn't have any problems finding Eric Ulner or Jeff Stockton's emails... they are on the internet for the climbers to use.
Jake; Just because you have a shorter drive to Jackson Falls then most people does not make you an expert on the area.
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organic
Feb 21, 2005, 5:13 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: we all complain because no one knows what is going on. Why not stop on by Jackson one saturday night and drink a few beers around the campfire, that is probably one of the best ways you can give to the young climbing community. There is no need to start a flame war on the internet over new routes at Jackson and no one telling you what is going on. In reality, no one has to tell you what is going on. I'll agree that it is hard to understand "where that came from" when walking around a crag without an updated version of the guidebook. But to think the FA is actually going to walk into your camp (or anybody elses) in the middle of night is ludicrious. These guys have kids, jobs, and lives. You can possibly make the same case, but then sit back and think for a minute... when was the last time these guys spent a night at Jackson Falls, while our college asses are sitting there drinking beer right now. I'm sure they would prefer throughing logs into a fire rather than changing babies diapers. If you want info, you shouldn't have any problems finding Eric Ulner or Jeff Stockton's emails... they are on the internet for the climbers to use. Jake; Just because you have a shorter drive to Jackson Falls then most people does not make you an expert on the area.
Of course no one has to say what is going on, but what is the point of bolting new routes then, is it not to make the place more enjoyable? Why not spread the word then? I am not asking anyone to spend the night at all just saying I would love to here some 'old school' stories hang out and shoot it with some of the developers, I did not think that was very ludicrous. Anyways I am not trying to participate in a flame war. Sorry if I am on people's nerves.
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andy_lemon
Feb 21, 2005, 5:45 PM
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In reply to: Why not spread the word then?
Hey, Organic, there are some new sport routes at Jackson Falls. 8^)
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ericulner
Feb 21, 2005, 6:19 PM
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“No stab I just thought jds100's real name is Jeff also, correct me if I
am
wrong so I was just saying that for sake of identification geesh dude why
the heck are you so freaking hostile.”
Yes, both of their names are Jeff. My point is you knew Jeff Frizzell’s
last name as I stated it in my original post. Instead of using it, you
chose your alternative. I think anyone would agree that you were
attempting a stab. There’s nothing hostile about me pointing this out.
“I did not flame anyone just asking questions and what the heck does this
have to do with my trad resume!”
“I do trad as much as I can but especially at Jackson cracks are often wet
and/or dirty.”
I made this point because the combination of your “the bolter” comment and your tone regarding trad rang with condescension.
“And it is not 3 people,”
Obviously, I was referring to this forum.
“go out to Jackson and talk to people climbing there the thing is there is
no communication between the climbers and the developers, so we all
complain because no one knows what is going on.”
I certainly haven’t been hiding from any of you “complainers”. I’m pretty
easy to contact. I guess it’s easier to sit around the campfire and
complain to each other. “What is going on” is basically the same thing
that’s been going on for the past 19 years at Jackson Falls. Again, I think
you have a perception problem based on your emotions. It strikes me as being very similar to those who don’t like seeing the “action” of a route being opened, but once the deed is done, it doesn’t seem to bother them.
“There seems to be a big division growing between the younger climbers and the "old folk" and it is hurting the area, hurting the atomosphere.”
Hurting? Hurting??? There’s no hurt to the atmosphere. Any hurt is in
your emotions. I guess if you would’ve arrived at the canyon to climb in
say, 1990, you would’ve made the same complaints about new routes then. But now they’re old routes, so they’re ok. You’re not complaining about them. Your logic is not consistent, which is why I believe you’re complaints are emotion-based.
“Why not stop on by Jackson one saturday night and drink a few beers
around the campfire,”
THE campfire? Which one? The one where I hear complaining? I think it’s
presumptuous of you to think that I should seek you out to explain new
routes.
“that is probably one of the best ways you can give to the young climbing
community.”
Your suggestion is irritating and presumptuous. The current best way that I give back to the climbing community is my monthly trip to the bank to make the mortgage payment on Draper’s Bluff where I allow the public to climb in my yard. I wasn't aware that it was expected of me, Jeff Frizzell, or others to socialize at random campfires at Jackson Falls. I have a full-time job. I also run a climbing school and guide service. I have a family. And I function as a one-man park maintenance crew at Draper's Bluff. I usually don't have time to do what you're expecting.
"Devil's Lake may be a zoo but the reason people love it is because 'old
schoolers' show up and hang out,"
That's great that they have the time to do that.
"kids can actually learn a thing or two, learn area ethics, learn how to be bold, learn how to climb and respect the crag."
I don't usually give away my time to teach climbers "a thing or two". Sometimes maybe, but I do run a climbing school.
Boldness isn't learned around a fire.
Respect should primarily be taught by parents.
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shank
Feb 21, 2005, 10:44 PM
Post #20 of 76
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In reply to: And I function as a one-man park maintenance crew at Draper's Bluff.
Eric,
Anytime you need a hand with anything in particular, or have a big job planed, let me know. I'll be more than happy to help out. May even be able to find a few others that would also.
Later,
Steve
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andy_lemon
Feb 22, 2005, 4:21 AM
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In reply to: May even be able to find a few others that would also.
You mean you are going to call me! :lol:
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exposed
Feb 22, 2005, 7:25 PM
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JUST CLIMB!!!!! :D
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kdchampion
Feb 22, 2005, 7:56 PM
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In reply to: a playground for chicago and STL area gymrats.
Oh, you shouldn't have to worry about the gymrats. Remember they don't go outside! Or maybe you should just rephrase that statement. Just because somebody climbs in a gym, especially in the midwest, doesn't mean that they should be treated differently.
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jds100
Feb 23, 2005, 3:42 PM
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Josiah (organic), I suspect that you're probably a well-intended person, though you're not expressing yourself too terribly well here.
Speaking as one who can (and frequently has in the past, right Andy?) get surly online, I want to suggest to you that you take a few deep breaths before you leap to defend yourself. I think your basic motives are probably good ones, and I think your overall intent is to be helpful and to contribute constructively. Maybe pause to think a little more thoroughly about some of the things you've said -such as:In reply to: ...so we all complain because no one knows what is going on. There seems to be a big division growing between the younger climbers and the "old folk" and it is hurting the area, hurting the atomosphere.
I strongly suggest that you give Eric a call sometime, and definitely go visit him at Draper's Bluff. Eric and I have reamed people online in the past, and it has often turned out that the person has contacted him or me, and we've developed a good friendly cooperative understanding, and even friendship.
Eric is THE resource for southern Illinois. It looks like you haven't been climbing in the area for all that long, much less lived in the area for very long. Assumptions, on your part and/ or on the part of other people, are always easy to come by, and they often seem to be totally logical. However, they usually lack a full knowledge of the history and the work that has already been done long before. So, take the time to get in touch with Eric; I'm confident that you'll be glad to have done so.
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organic
Feb 23, 2005, 7:17 PM
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Thanks Jeff I really appreciate your response and you have my intentions correct. I have only been climbing down here for about 1.5 years and have only been a local for about 1.5 months so you are correct there also. It seems people on here have me out to be the bad guy when it seems all I am is misunderstood and criticized for trying to turn a touchy subject half civil. But thanks again Jeff for not being so critical.
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