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justsendingits
Feb 28, 2005, 8:15 PM
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Ok, I have rope here in the Lou, and one in Chicago, anybody that want's to take it down to J.F. is more thatn welcome.
Just don't do what I did last year and leave it hanging as a fixed rope to work a route for tooo long.
My apology's to the climbing community for that one!!
Rich
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avituro
Feb 28, 2005, 8:31 PM
Post #52 of 76
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Ulner! Stop trying to justify everything. Let the whiners wine and just let it go. If they really wanted to know what the hell was going on then they should have just called you or Jeff. If it really means something to one of the whiners then start to do something about it. It is public land and everyone has a voice.
By the way, I agree with Ulner on the equestrian issue. It is a bigger problem for Jackson Falls.
With all the effort that has gone into this topic, hell someone could have went out and done something constructive. Whatever that is.
"Guard well your spare moments. They are like uncut diamonds. Discard them and their value will never be known. Improve them and they will become the brightest gems in a useful life."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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healyje
Feb 28, 2005, 9:30 PM
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In reply to: Although I covered these points I'll make here quite well in the history section of my new guidebook, I'll make short mention here as well. When we first began using bolts at Jackson Falls in 1986, we simply went with the established and very well accepted ethic that a bolt could be used to protect a blank spot on a route, so as to make it reasonably leadable.
Eric, I'm in no way questioning the ethics that began bolting in JF only the end result over time. I know everyone's intentions were good and you, Jim, and Alan were just trying to make some sweet mixed routes possible.
In reply to: Check "Makanda Layback" at Giant City (bolt placed by Craig Barnes circa 1970). "Unfinished Symphony" at Cedar Bluff (circa 1984). Numerous fixed pins and a smattering of bolts here and there at Giant City, Cove Hollow, Little Grand Canyon, and other areas (most of them pre-1975).
Yes, we changed the ethics of the first generation of climbers after John Gill - many of them were cavers originally, most were better travelled than us, and as a rule were way more into gear than us (the second generation). But even they were extremely circumspect about their use of fixed pro which probably amounted to under two dozen or so bolts and pins in all of S.I. and those by maybe three or four individuals max. I personally find it is a bit of a stretch to consider that number of fixed pro placements over the decade prior to '74 an "ethic" condoning the wide application of bolting - but, I'll grant you a fixed pro practice did exist.
We on the otherhand [explicitly] adopted a LNT "leave no trace" ethic and eskewed the use of fixed pro at almost all cost when we climbed in S.I. I've held on to that ethic and in thirty years (until this past year) I had only placed one pin that I relocated from the base of Skyhook in Giant City to the roof "Nameless Wonder" out at Stonefort (closed to climbing now I think). [I also placed my first bolts ever this past year for belay and rap anchors, though I still do not place them for protection on pitches, preferring pins if a piece of fixed pro is absolutely necessary (it sometimes is here at Beacon).]
So, yes there were two sets of ethical "precedents" that were evident for your generation to choose from when we left town, though that pin at Stonefort was the only piece of fixed pro I know of that went in from '74-'80. LNT was the prevailing ethic during that time and any "fixed pro" ethic, such as it ever was in S.I., had to be "resurrected" from the morgue of [albiet not that distant] climbing history.
In reply to: In 1986 at Jackson Falls, we were not thinking about "sport climbing". It was not until later around 1987 or so that we even noticed the term in a magazine. All we wanted to do was lead routes. And, since we (Jim Thurmond, Alan Carrier, and myself) were locals, as in people who grew up in this area and remain here, unlike the majority of the past climbers who came for college and left, we felt very comfortable to continue with the precedence set and use bolts to protect blank spots. Whether or not routes were partially trad protectable or totally void of trad protectability was irrelevant. Over the ensuing years, some of the very (actually) few people who are opening routes here made another step regarding bolting ethics and decided to not worry about a route being mixed- meaning, if a route has 5 bolts and one slot that could take a nut, they'd simplify things and make it a 6 bolt route. This is not to say that bolting cracks is a norm. It's not. There exists one bolted crack and it's an overhung 5.12. Now, do I personally agree with this last step in bolting ethics? No, I don't. I typically will leave sport routes sport, mixed routes mixed, and trad routes trad. The making of a mixed route sport isn't worth having a bolt war over. I'm happy to have Jackson Falls left as an area where the less than 6 of us who have opened 10 routes or more each can get along, living and letting live.
Eric, I do admire your digging in there in S.I. and making it your home - I'd say you are a rare example of such a possibility and that makes you unique, but many of us made significant contributions to climbing in S.I. and our views are equally legitimate. And I thoroughly appreciate the evolution of ethics both in S.I. and elsewhere that led to extensive bolting. Used judiciously, bolts have a legitimate place and I for one very much support your comment and practice of "leave[ing] sport routes sport, mixed routes mixed, and trad routes trad". I believe that is how things should remain. I don't, however, think there is any ethical justification in S.I. or anywhere else for bolting cracks simply to "sport out" a mixed climb.
In reply to: Bolts have not beat up Jackson Falls. Uncontrolled equestrian use has.
When I was there in '90 all the trampling and trashing I observed and was commenting on, starting with rutted out disaster of a parking scene, to the trail in, to the areas in a wide perimeter around every set of bolts, and the litter was more than obviously done by climbers. Given you saw it evolve gradually you probably weren't as cognizant of it - but it was startling to be confronted with it all at once. But it was actully the chalk that was most disheartening - those hollow walls are so beautifully textured and colored that [for me as an ex-photographer] chalk pretty much constitutes a total visual blight. I have no doubt at all the pretty much any equestrian use of JF would totally trash the place, I just saw no hoof prints whatsoever the day I climbed there - but again, I agree equestrian use would have an enormous impact on any hollow.
In reply to: As for previous generations of climbers utilizing Jackson Falls, yes, perhaps a few of the cracks, but there does come a point when, unless you do some cleaning, you'll not find success on an ascent. Most of the 5.10 and above trad routes we did (and these were the first routes we sought), had enough friable rock on them to leave one to believe no human had passed before.
The key word in my previous quote was "obvious"; but several of the lines were at the .10+ level and many of the routes were quite "manky" and loose in spots. Did we climb them all? No, but many were, both by us and the first generation before us. But I have no doubt you would have been able to discern a route that had likely never been climbed.
In reply to: Cleaning rock, by the way, is pretty much a necessity on 5.10 and above east of the Mississippi.
5.12 and up I'd categorically agree on and we could probably compromise on 5.11 - but I will grant you cleaning rock happens, even out here West of the Mississippi. I had to do a some cleaning of very dangerous loose rock (above routes below) on a five pitch route we put up last fall. That said, there is "cleaning" and there is "cleaning" and is another case where I would hope folks would be judicious and use a little common sense. This is a BIG issue out at Beacon Rock where the entire rock is considered habitat including the routes and we always have to remember we need to tread lightly or risk losing the right to climb there altogether.
In reply to: Ultimately, what the newest generation of climbers does not realize is that we didn't just open up a magazine one day, notice sport climbing, and decide to start sport climbing. It was process over a period of a few years. Likewise, someone like Joe, who was here earlier and then return years later would miss out on the fact that there was a process over time.
Again, I'm fully cognizant of how climbing has evolved over time whether in S.I., here in Oregon, or anywhere else. In no way am I critizicing any individual, merely stating that that "evolution" can and does take unexpected turns and results in some untowards results, particularly in light of twenty years of climbing gyms and the presence of some folks that simply want to replicate that experience outdoors.
As I said, I really think the real debate in S.I. (and elsewhere) on top ropeable cliffs [should have been /] was less about bolting per se than about whether "clipping" adds such significant value to the climbing experience over top roping that it justifies the impact of bolting. Given most sport climbers talk about wanting to "focus on the climbing" and not be distracted by placing [trad] gear I personally am always quite surprised to hear that doesn't extend to not being distracted with clipping bolts.
Eric, I don't think you and I are all that far apart on these issues and am in no way critizing you, Jim, or Alan personally for how JF has ended up. I suspect over the ensuing years you too have seen some evolutionary effects you aren't necessarily happy with either. I know our LNT ethic kept us from bolting anchors at the top of Giant City and that was a clear mistake in terms of the relentless effect we and others had on the trees at the top. We were totally wrong on that point and we bear no little responsibility for the loss of all those beautiful cedar trees. Unfortunately that's how evolution works - there is no perfect foresight, only hindsight - all we can do is learn from the past as best as we can and teach by example for the future...
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jds100
Mar 2, 2005, 1:00 AM
Post #54 of 76
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Mr. Healy, first: a huge nod of acknowledgement and appreciation for the "pioneering" you did in southern Illinois climbing. I'm aware that differences of opinion exist, but that does not tarnish the facts of your significant contributions, nor do I think Eric would ever suggest any such diminishment, either.
I can only imagine the sense of loss and nostalgia, to put it mildly, that you probably felt, and that you mention here, in your return visits to Jackson Falls. I think, however, that that is to be expected in just about any context, indoor or outdoor, climbing or anything. Specifically, as you know, climbing has grown in popularity since your halcyon days, in southern Illinois as well as the rest of the country, and that obviously means more visitors to Jackson. As I said in an earlier post in this thread, crowds, per se, are not the problem. Trash and environmental impact are problems, and the fact is that climbers are most likely not wrecking the greatest havoc to Jackson; equestrian are. I would be absolutely shocked if, on any given day of the year, it would be possible to hike through Jackson Falls and find no evidence of horses, no hoof prints, dung, etc. If that was the case on your particular visit, I would suggest that to be extremely rare then, and impossible now.
Horse riders move through the canyon, using the same trails that the USDA Forest Service agreed to let climbers make for climber use some years ago, and were since simply co-opted by riders. The horse caravans have frequently numbered over 40 in one group, with multiple groups riding through, and then back again on the same trail the same day, repeated at least on Saturdays and Sundays of weather-permitting weekends throughout the year.
There have never been groups of climbers that large, nor that frequent. Even hiking groups are larger than the groups of climbers. I further doubt that climbers as a user group ever constitute the largest number of individual user days in a given year at Jackson Falls. By the way, the Foest Service has recognized climbers as unique among all user groups of the area in their level of cooperation and willigness to contribute to whatever solutions need to be developed, as opposed to being stridently attached to specific interests as if we existed in the canyon in a vacuum, as some other users groups (or some of their members) have expressed themselves. We enjoy a nearly-unique good working relationship with land managment authorities in the area.
For overall environmental impact and damage at Jackson Falls, the award goes to equestrians.
I won't begin the arguement about bolts and "damage", nor about chalk and "damage", being equated to the damage that is so immediately visible and expensive to remediate (if the Forest Service had the funds, and if the Forest Service had the manpower, and if the Forest Service had the mandate, all of which they don't).
As to bolted pro at Jackson, there are many routes that simply would not exist without bolted pro, and there are many many routes that cannot be safely set up for top rope. Of course, some would argue that these "routes" should not then be bolted, or should not "be brought down to the climbers level". I believe it is part of the evolutionary process of climbing that climbers want to climb harder routes, and it is a fact of the history of the development of climbing that most -the vast majority- of harder routes have been unprotectable with trad gear. It is a natural part of the evolutionary process that climbers would find ways to provide protection (what year was Ship Rock and "A Bent Piece of Iron"?) as they moved on to harder and harder routes. It is also a natural part of the process that there would be the kind of backlash that we saw in this country, and the kind of over-reaction from the other side, and then, gradually, the penduluum achieves equilibium, as it has, for the most part with specific ocassionaly exceptions.
That's pretty much where we are with respect to Jackson Falls. Yes, ideally there will occur clean up and remediation to enviromental damage, but it has to run through the USDA approval process, which can take (literally) years, on the level that is needed. In the meantime, in general, I think climbers are a fairly reasonable group, with individual exceptions that make it all the harder for the rest of us. But, that's the nature of human beings.
Enough. Thanks Mr. Healy. I agree that Eric and you may not be that far apart on the larger issues. Thanks for the work you've done in the past, and thanks for your input here.
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henryjackson
Mar 2, 2005, 1:50 AM
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As the sole founder of Jackson Falls, I content that I have full privilege to state my opinion.
Back in 65' my family owned a small farm down the road from Jackson Falls, it seemed like no one had been there yet, so with my neighbors permission I christened the canyon Jackson falls, after my father, Eullet Jackson. I placed the first bolts up and down that wall, grabbing the first ascents of Shining WIlbury and Best out of the West. Eventually, the bolts were chopped on Shining, and 20 years later that route was stolen from me and renamed some jibber jabber. I am the eldest authority over Jackson, I appreciate everyone coming together over such a dispute, but as the Supreme figure I say that thou shalt not change the route unless bolts are in dire need for repair. Unless this b-tching stops I am going to rename the falls, t-sticle falls, and under the United States law you will be able to do nothing.
You can never shake hands with a clenched fist.
-Ghandi
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scgreene2000
Mar 2, 2005, 2:30 AM
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In reply to: As the sole founder of Jackson Falls, I content that I have full privilege to state my opinion. Back in 65' my family owned a small farm down the road from Jackson Falls, it seemed like no one had been there yet, so with my neighbors permission I christened the canyon Jackson falls, after my father, Eullet Jackson. I placed the first bolts up and down that wall, grabbing the first ascents of Shining WIlbury and Best out of the West. Eventually, the bolts were chopped on Shining, and 20 years later that route was stolen from me and renamed some jibber jabber. I am the eldest authority over Jackson, I appreciate everyone coming together over such a dispute, but as the Supreme figure I say that thou shalt not change the route unless bolts are in dire need for repair. Unless this b-tching stops I am going to rename the falls, t-sticle falls, and under the United States law you will be able to do nothing.
Now I'm laughing so hard that I think I pissed myself!
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justsendingits
Mar 2, 2005, 3:57 AM
Post #57 of 76
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TROLL ALERT!!
H. Jackson, are you for real??
"Eldest authority"
Eldest----maybe
Authority---- W. Harding would get a good laugh from that.
"Supreme figure"------Not sure what that means!!!
"Sole founder of Jackson falls"---hahahaha!!
As far as changing the name of J.F. you can call the hollow "Green eggs and ham" for all I care!!
Peace (peas) and carrots to all!!!!!
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henryjackson
Mar 2, 2005, 4:41 AM
Post #58 of 76
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justsendingits-
You simply must learn respect. Jackson falls does not deserve to have my name on it. Well back in 85' ulner tried to change it to Ulner falls, so we had a climboff. Every climber from NC to Cali showed up. But back then there was a wheat patch in the falls, so it was more like a carnival. Boy i showed him. I climbed loops around him with my eyes closed. If you think old man jackson cant climb, then think again!
In the "great watering" of 88' me and my old climbing honky tonks slowly drifted away from climbing at jackson and migrated to our secret village deep in the shawnee. We now live off of selling wacky tobacky to local college kids and stealing climbers food.
I might have to talk to rod (blagoyevich), and if he says so, than jackson falls will be redubbed T-sticle falls, or N-tsack falls. We established EVERY route at jackson but in 65' but we used 2 by 4's and cowbells, not this fancy "bolt" fad. most times we simply soloed.
I fancy them bolts, but you youngin's just dont know the good old life.
#3 Dale Earnheart is my hero.
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justsendingits
Mar 2, 2005, 6:01 AM
Post #59 of 76
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Number 3 RULED!!!
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justsendingits
Mar 2, 2005, 6:02 AM
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I love thst wacky tabacky.
H. Jackson for troll of the year!!!
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healyje
Mar 2, 2005, 10:09 AM
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In reply to: Mr. Healy, first: a huge nod of acknowledgement and appreciation for the "pioneering" you did in southern Illinois climbing. I'm aware that differences of opinion exist, but that does not tarnish the facts of your significant contributions, nor do I think Eric would ever suggest any such diminishment, either.
Thanks much - but first off, as Adam would say back in the day, 'whoa hoss' on the "Mr." business - nothing I've done save getting old rates a "Mr." - let's just make it Joseph or Joe. I may be old but almost everything is still working without a blue pill (make mine microdot). For living proof here is a link to Jim Tangen-Foster and I back in mid-November at Red Rocks - the first time we've really climbed together in about twenty years:
http://spaces.msn.com/members/avasys and click on the fifth button just to the right of the four VCR-like controls
We haven't quit climbing quite yet. Jim's still pulling down .12's and free soloing way too much, I just put up a new five pitch trad 5.11c R route called Lost Warriors out at Beacon, and we'll both be in the Valley the last two weeks of May so if any of you are out that way then look us up.
Don't worry, Eric and I occasionally joust but I have a ton of respect for him and all he has taken on over the years (or is that gotten himself into over the years). I don't suspect he would have guessed what role he would end up playing in all this back when we first met and given all the responsibility he has shouldered and work he has invested in climbing I have nothing bad to say about Eric at all - not to mention he's a great climber...
In reply to: Horse riders move through the canyon, using the same trails that the USDA Forest Service agreed to let climbers make for climber use some years ago, and were since simply co-opted by riders. The horse caravans have frequently numbered over 40 in one group, with multiple groups riding through, and then back again on the same trail the same day, repeated at least on Saturdays and Sundays of weather-permitting weekends throughout the year.
In reply to: For overall environmental impact and damage at Jackson Falls, the award goes to equestrians.
That is way, way over the top on the equestrian front - that makes Eric's comments much clearer - a couple of horses coming into a hollow on a semi-regular basis would trash it let alone run commercial operations in one every weekend. No hollow could sustain that traffic really. I can only assume somehow between climbers and others that word got out about the place and the FS has decided to "sacrifice" it as a "heavy" use area to spare other hollows in the area. That would make some sense and I believe I remember Eric saying something along those lines once...
In reply to: As to bolted pro at Jackson, there are many routes that simply would not exist without bolted pro, and there are many many routes that cannot be safely set up for top rope. Of course, some would argue that these "routes" should not then be bolted, or should not "be brought down to the climbers level"...
I know there are "island" rocks in jax that can't be set up with TRs along with parts of the rim, but I would suspect that many if not a majority of the routes could be TR'd without problem (minus the occasional person falling off setting up TR's). I do understand the evolution we've seen in climbing and I guess this is just a case where I don't agree with some of it. In the case of jax (and copping on Eric's statement) I'd leave trad climbs trad, TR everything else possible, and bolt anything worthy that can't be done trad or on a TR. I just personally just find no merit or satisfaction of any type in clipping bolts for the sake of, well, clipping bolts on a short route that could be TR'd.
Again, I'm not against fixed pro, there are several bugaboos and lost arrows on Lost Warriors (these pins were retro'd in by consensus as those pitches were initially done free almost entirely on Crack N' Ups and small Lowe/Byrne ballnuts which basically no one else around here has except us old guys...) - I just tend to advocate being judicious as hell with all fixed pro, but most especially bolts.
In reply to: That's pretty much where we are with respect to Jackson Falls. Yes, ideally there will occur clean up and remediation to enviromental damage, but it has to run through the USDA approval process, which can take (literally) years, on the level that is needed. In the meantime, in general, I think climbers are a fairly reasonable group, with individual exceptions that make it all the harder for the rest of us. But, that's the nature of human beings.
Well, that pretty much sums up the picture out here at Beacon Rock as well only we deal more with the State of Washington and the Columbia River Gorge Commission...
In reply to: Thanks for the work you've done in the past, and thanks for your input here.
It was no work at all, we were just having way, way too much fun. As for contributions here - well, that still falls under the "fun" category. Thanks for your very thoughtful post; hope to meet you in the fall when we're out that way...
P.S. HenryJ - great parody, but you've obviously never seen stoppers and hexs made out of hardwood...
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organic
Mar 2, 2005, 4:58 PM
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Heading down to Jackson this friday if anyone has some old rope to donate please let me know, I can pick it up. Otherwise I will buy some new rope to put up!
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bigevil
Mar 21, 2005, 10:47 PM
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didn't look like the rope got changed out..did you forget? I had rope all ready to do it, but when I saw your post, I left it at home.
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organic
Mar 22, 2005, 3:27 AM
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someone said they would give me one I have not received it, feel free to setup and/or donate yours.
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gymslackerclimber
Mar 22, 2005, 6:09 AM
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hey,,, i know this is about cliimbing and the entrance rope,, but how about next to the rope, over the water, in front of the falls,,, a highline...,,? Oh YEAh,, next weekend.,, the 25th,,, i think,,,BAD ASS and i also think that it slipped organic's mind before he left the burbs with matt to get their 'climb on'????maybe??(or maybe im way off with that last thought of mine) but if anyone is a slacker and wants to partake.. hopefully on saturday it will be up
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climbingspaz
Apr 1, 2005, 5:45 PM
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i was bouldering at jfalls last weekend and met jeff and his partner (who's name escapes me at present :oops: ). Anyways, i talked with jeff, saw his work, and i think it is wonderful that new routes of easier ratings are going up at jfalls. now before you flame me and say that's because i can't handle hard routes, let me say that whether or not that is true (and you can check my route list if you are so inclined) it is still nice to be able to take others who want to learn about the sport and show them a good time on easier routes -- OUTSIDE. you want to know why gym rats are gym rats most of the time ? two reasons, lack of access to climbing sites (because of lack of transportation or climbing partners) and lack of confidence in making the leap to an uncontrolled environment. for the latter of the two, people like jeff open our sport to those less physically talented than others. and, while more people at a climbing site often times makes routes less accessible to those that are always at the area in question, the routes jeff is setting are, based on the discussion that i've read, beneath all your levels anyways (or at least that's how most of the posters make it seem). so, what truly is the problem ? are we becoming so selfish that we don't want others to experience the passion that makes us drive 14 hours in a weekend to climb six ?
jeff, at least one fellow guide and poster (that's me) supports your efforts. your routes are solid, well set, and safe. couple that with the fact that they may help other less-experienced folks get more experienced at an underclimbed location, and well, i just want to say thanks.
rock on with your bad self. 8^)
CF
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jake83
Apr 2, 2005, 8:35 PM
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I have stated this before but just for the hell of it.I am not against easy routes. what pisses me off is tampering with routes that have been established for quite sometime and the manner in which new routes are being done(e.g. bright shiney hangers and chains). When new routes are established the hangers and chains should definately be camoflauged so that we do not endanger climbing for the future.As most of us know climbers are not the biggest user group of the falls or anyother area all it would take is one hardcore enviromentalist to see bright chains and bolts in the rock and we would most likely be screwed.
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healyje
Apr 3, 2005, 12:30 AM
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I'll second the camo hangers, that's what we're doing out here in PDX at Beacon Rock. I just got a slew of both camo rap anchors and hangers to start swapping out all the [lower] old non-camo ones this year.
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fallenfreesoloist
Apr 3, 2005, 1:00 AM
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right on for everything eric ulner has said. jeff is doing us a favor, giving us more climbing and all you can do is coplain and insult him? Jeff is one of the coolest and nicest guys i have ever met. sure your big and bad on a post where you remain anonymous and dont have to look anyone in the eye, but you'd never stand up and say this to jeff's face. Hes doin this for the climbers, not for himself, so instead of rippin on him u oughta thank him. i have.
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obe
Apr 3, 2005, 1:01 AM
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THIS REALLY PISSES ME OFF!!!!!!!!! I LOVE JACKSON FALLS AND ALL OF SO ILL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IF THERE IS ANYTHING I CAN DO TO HELP STOP THIS PLEASE TELL ME!!!!!!!!!!
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ericulner
Apr 3, 2005, 5:37 AM
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In reply to: I have stated this before but just for the hell of it.I am not against easy routes. what pisses me off is tampering with routes that have been established for quite sometime and the manner in which new routes are being done(e.g. bright shiney hangers and chains). When new routes are established the hangers and chains should definately be camoflauged so that we do not endanger climbing for the future.As most of us know climbers are not the biggest user group of the falls or anyother area all it would take is one hardcore enviromentalist to see bright chains and bolts in the rock and we would most likely be screwed.
The phrase, "established for quite sometime" would be more correct if you said, "unfinished for quite some time". But then again, the "quite some time" greatly exceeds your limited tenure as a climber at Jackson Falls.
This is certainly the case for the slab route you stripped of its bolts a few weeks back (as you admitted to me in a PM). You apparently remain uninformed of much of the history of the canyon, despite all of the posts that Stockton and I have written. And you remain unwilling to simply ask (any of us who are informed) about any given route that happens to bother you. I've come to the conclusion that you really don't care about these things and that your primary objective is to grandstand.
If you would have taken the time to simply talk to Jeff, you'd know that he already has it on his plate to go through and paint hangers. If you really wanted to have a positive impact on the canyon, you would have stepped up to the plate and offered to do this yourself.
By the way, you stripped that slab route and didn't bother patching the holes. Your opinion that drove you to do such a deed was therefore disingenuous.
In reply to: all it would take is one hardcore enviromentalist to see bright chains and bolts in the rock and we would most likely be screwed.
You are showing us all more clearly just how little you are informed of the 15-year relationship between climbers and the Shawnee National Forest. They know, have known, and accept that Jackson Falls has bolts. Your fears of "one hardcore environmentalist" is baseless. Jeff intends to paint hangers for the aesthetic value, not baseless fear. The Shawnee is way more worried about meth labs in the forest than new climbing routes in an established climbing area that already has over 300 routes (Hazmat teams clean up about one meth lab per day in So. IL, sad but true.)
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healyje
Apr 3, 2005, 6:49 AM
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Registered: Aug 22, 2004
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jake83
From what Eric is saying I'd have to agree it sounds like you really need to step way back, think, and talk to people who've been around before taking unilateral action. I can vouch for Jeff's good intentions and you need to talk with folks before jumping the gun. Also, as Eric said, either paint them yourself, replace them with camo hangers (yourself), and I would think anyone of mind to pull bolts regardless of the reason would fill/camo the holes at the time they do the pulling.
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andy_lemon
Apr 5, 2005, 4:59 AM
Post #73 of 76
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Registered: Sep 7, 2001
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In reply to: This is certainly the case for the slab route you stripped of its bolts a few weeks back
Stripping a slab jake? Couldn't you make it up anything vertical?
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justsendingits
Apr 12, 2005, 10:51 PM
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Registered: Dec 29, 2001
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Forget about it Jake, it's Chinatown........
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bigevil
Apr 14, 2005, 3:34 AM
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Registered: Oct 21, 2004
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the crowds were crazy at jackson last weekend. I hope all are responsible about pickign up their own trash, and staying on trails. btw, when you see people building fires and camping under the overhangs in the canyon, please ask them to move (politely , of course)
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