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healyje
Aug 31, 2005, 8:17 AM
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In reply to: All of which amounts to splitting semantic hairs, especially given your "skill and ability being equal" qualifier...clipping a draw to a bolt and sticking a friend in a crack both involve the same level of choice and personal responsiblity, and since the crack-protected trad route offers way more protection per vertical foot than the bolted sport route, I'd say you're more responsible for your own safety on the sport route than on the trad, since falling is the thing that's dangerous and falls are easier to avoid on trad, both because of the frequency of gear placements and the relative lack of difficulty/strenuosness compared to sport. I'm more scared on a sport climb at my limit than I ever was on Astroman or the Rostrum, because I was basically carrying my courage on my shoulder sling in the form of all that spring-loaded hardware - somehow the draws don't make me feel as brave, probably because I can't put those wherever I want...also probably because the hard sport routes are actually hard...
Kalcario, I have no problem believing what you say here, but my responses are, again, about what responsibilities you have available to you to assume when you choose one or the other - not about difficulty, safety, or level of fear/commitment. The simple fact is you place your protection in trad; someone else does it for you in sport. One is about trusting your own protection skills and judgment about placements; the other is about trusting someone else's.
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kalcario
Aug 31, 2005, 8:39 AM
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* I love it when sport climbers try to make a case for sport climbing being a more "manly" activity then trad. Really, it fits so well with the personality type that is drawn to being a sport only climber.*
hmm...my online stalker's back...
As opposed to the type that slings insults from a safe distance, instead of actually being a man and saying whatever it is you need to say to my face. Which of course...you'll never do.
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healyje
Aug 31, 2005, 9:25 AM
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alpnclmbr1,
Again, you need to read my comments a bit more literally. They mean only what they say. By "share responsibility with gear manufacturers" I'm clearly saying that if you use gear and you aren't making your own then you are literally "sharing responsibility" for your safety with them.
In reply to: There isn't any difference in the level of personal responsibility for one's own safety in the different variations of rock climbing. Some people like to think there is, and some others are paid to tell you there is....
Well, outside of the drive to the crag there is actually quite a difference in the level of responsibility you have to assume for yourself in each of these activities. Free solo and bouldering - no gear, trad - no pre-placed protection, sport - climb it or don't. All require that you take responsibility for actually getting off the couch - but a functional analysis of the differing tasks involved pretty clearly shows the differing levels of personal responsibility involved with securing your safety. At the most basic level it is the simple question of, when you leave the ground, will you be providing your own protection in some way or another or will it already be there...
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ambler
Aug 31, 2005, 1:35 PM
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In reply to: in trad crack climbing, you never really have to fall because you can slam in a piece virtually anywhere. |
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j_ungtest
Aug 31, 2005, 1:46 PM
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Hi, j_ung here. This is a test post. Please ignore.
Give it up for the j_ungtest Dancers... :wink:
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rufusandcompany
Aug 31, 2005, 2:09 PM
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In reply to: Probably neither but i was curious as to the opinions of others.
It already has a name: free soloing. It is what it is. That is what is has always been.
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jaybird2
Aug 31, 2005, 3:22 PM
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Is the title of this thread an oxymoron?
(cough, cough, SARCASM!, cough)
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kalcario
Aug 31, 2005, 3:54 PM
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*You have to pick your climbs carefully, carry lots of gear, have all the time in the world and be able to stop anywhere for kalcario's favorite claim about trad climbs to hold water.*
You just basically described 99% of the climbing I did for 15 years in Yosemite Valley, except for the "pick your climbs carefully" part...
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watchme
Aug 31, 2005, 4:35 PM
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In reply to: Trad is ground up climbing baby and free soloing is as trad as it gets. You guys got it all wrong. It isn't new... its the oldest. It is the forefather. More gear = less trad.
Exactly.
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rastafari
Aug 31, 2005, 4:40 PM
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Soloing is a completely different discipline than trad.Soloing was THE first form of climbing. Which reminds me. There should be a Solo section on this forum.
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curt
Aug 31, 2005, 4:42 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: ...You have to pick your climbs carefully, carry lots of gear, have all the time in the world and be able to stop anywhere for kalcario's favorite claim about trad climbs to hold water. You just basically described 99% of the climbing I did for 15 years in Yosemite Valley, except for the "pick your climbs carefully" part...
Try the Gunks sometime.
Curt
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bobd1953
Aug 31, 2005, 5:17 PM
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This crap get so old.
I am so better than you cause I sport climb! Joe
I am so better than you cause I put gear in. Joe
I am so cooler because I boulder. Wanker.
I think it is safe to say that I have done all three more than 98-per-cent of the folks on this site. It all seems to be fun.
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live2climb
Aug 31, 2005, 5:42 PM
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in my mind it is just climbing at its finest, just man/woman on rock just wounderfull and exciting
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arostecrux
Aug 31, 2005, 6:34 PM
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soloing is willing to pay for your mistakes with crippeling injuries or death.
it is the freest you will ever climb, and a good way to learn how to deal with commitment. Am I recommending you try it? Certainly.....not if you don't like the idea.
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bobd1953
Aug 31, 2005, 6:38 PM
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In reply to: soloing is willing to pay for your mistakes with crippeling injuries or death.
Not very smart!
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deschamps1000
Aug 31, 2005, 6:41 PM
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Is this a joke? Are you all really discussing whether free soloing is sport or trad?
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golsen
Aug 31, 2005, 7:05 PM
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Well, this discussion is pretty pointless unless you get a definition of what Trad and Sport are. I mean, I have seen on here where posters call Quartz Mtn in OK sport, or runout bolted face climbs in Tuolumne sport simply cuz they are bolted. So I say get back to basics and get that figured out first. But the answer has already been said here. It all used to be called climbing. Free Solo distinguished the most committing climbing. Can you free solo a sport climb? Sure. Can you free solo a trad climb? yep. Can you free solo a big wall aid climb? Well not exactly, but you can make it pretty sporty (oops).
Just curious: Is the bachar yerian a sport climb? I mean it is all Bolted. Does a trad climb have to involve placing gear to protect your ass? I am sincerely asking these questions. I have only been doin this for about 30 years and I still cringe when people ask if I climb trad....I am not sure I know what the hell they are talkin about. But that is another thread....
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ontherocks
Aug 31, 2005, 8:00 PM
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Before sport climbing, there was just climbing, then they needed to call it trad, to differentiate the old stuff from the new invention. Then I guess is trad, as there is nothing older than soloing. Naked soling is even more trad. Some people even consider aid to use underwear.
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cagdbikeclimb
Aug 31, 2005, 8:02 PM
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Is trolling sport or trad?
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ontherocks
Aug 31, 2005, 8:05 PM
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In reply to: Is trolling sport or trad? |
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ambler
Aug 31, 2005, 8:28 PM
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In reply to: Is trolling sport or trad? |
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squish
Aug 31, 2005, 9:01 PM
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I hope everyone agrees that "sport" and "trad" aren't defined by the gear you use.
Let me propose another definition, for the sake of this argument: Soloing is the application and practice of LMNF. (Leader Must Not Fall.)
In trad climbing, there are certainly pitches where you're "on your own." Even though there's a rope, LMNF would certainly apply. In these situations, the leader is in essence "soloing" the pitch, and that makes this mental game an integral part of trad climbing.
This doesn't happen in sport. Nowhere in sport climbing should the LMNF rule apply. In the exceptional case that it might, in general soloing and LMNF isn't a part of the sport climbing "game."
(If there is a such thing as "sport soloing" we already have a name for it: it's called bouldering.)
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gnat
Aug 31, 2005, 9:32 PM
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In reply to: The rules Lito wrote about, in his classic essay "Games Climbers Play," refer simply to what is not allowed in any particular climbing "game." ...... Progress, as Lito saw it, consists in part of the application of more restrictive rules (such as alpine rules) to larger objectives (such as expeditionary peaks).
The revolution of sport climbing is the antithesis of the limited concept of "progress" as viewed by Tejada-Flores. Progress is not always so narrowly defined anymore.
And while there seems to be a general acknowledgment of the purity of free soloing, a significant number of people who spout off on this site seem to have a completely contrary view of progress than that of Tejada-Flores. I have seen free soloing reviled and participants heaped with scorn. Perhaps this is what happens when climbing is embraced by the greater population- cum lowest common denominator.
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angry
Aug 31, 2005, 9:36 PM
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If you don't understand why people solo, you aren't ready.
You may never be ready.
As to whether it's sport or trad, it's trad, but trad is a sort of retarded term too.
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watchme
Aug 31, 2005, 10:38 PM
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In reply to: trad is a sort of retarded term too.
Exactly.
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