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snothead
Oct 4, 2005, 8:19 PM
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My wife is has been practicing for almost a year now.
It really depends on your priorities and choices. During med school and residency you may not have much choice at times. I watched my wife work 80- 100 hour weeks at times and then 3.5 day weeks at other times. When she chose her residency program she was careful to find out what type of lifestyle it allowed, and she happened to choose a city with endless outdoor opportunties within 15min-1hour drive.
I don't know how things are in the US, but here in Canada more new physicians (more than half of which are women) are not willing to work the crazy hours that physicians did traditionally. More and more physicians are recognizing the importance of their own health. You will be less helpful to your patients if you are working 80 hours a week, burning out, impatient all the time, rushed and exhausted, and having your family life suck because you are ignoring them.
In the ER in my city at least 5 of the physicians climb, and the ER schedule does seem to allow for a lot of time off - if you can handle the type of work. I know another doc who is in family practice and works about 3 days a week and spends a lot of time travelling.
And no, rockkid55, she isn't going to "cure cancer" - get a f-ing life
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iamthewallress
Oct 4, 2005, 8:26 PM
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It depends on how easy school is for you and what your priorities are career-wise.
There was and MD/PhD candidate in my graduate program who barely needed to attend class and was still getting honors grades.
If I was in his shoes, I'd have needed to study a whole lot more just to get the pass.
My sorta sister-in-law works 3 10 hour shifts a week and has 4 days off. The money is good, and she has great balance in her life. She's an ER doc, though, so her residencey was very demanding. Some specialties have more regular hours.
Some specialties have more humane residencies.
I've always found in any aspect of life, that you can set your own boundries and experience a bit of both world, but you have to be satisfied that if you decide that you want to make your outside interests a priority, you probably won't make dept. chair at Harvard Med, but that doesn't mean you won't have a great and meaningful career on a slightly less competative and life-consuming track.
As for alternatives...I chose the PhD research track. I actually dropped out of Medical School a week before classes started when the reality of Med school was upon me. I know that a big part of this choice was me balking at the structure of Med School and much of medical practice (as well as a desire on my part to do research full-time). If you go to grad school, you can expect to make around 21K a year in stipend money (vs. paying twice that to go to med school), only take classes for one year, and then for the rest of your time, whether you sink or swim on your thesis project is up to you. Most advisors don't care if you work only midnight hours or take extended vacations so long as you are producing data/publications. The pressure to work all the time is there, but you can usually subvert it, especially if your project is going well. When you finish, you can get a 9-5 job in industry for good money also, if the higher time-pressure academic thing isn't where it's at for you.
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lhwang
Oct 4, 2005, 8:45 PM
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I can only talk about medical school since I'm not yet a doctor, but yes, it most definitely is possible to go to medical school and climb. People often worry about not being able to have a life outside of medicine, but it is essential and much easier to do than you'd imagine. The three years I've spent in medical school have been among the easiest and most leisurely in my entire life. I love medicine... it's flexible, there's loads of variety, it's challening and stimulating, and yes, you get to help people.
All in all, since the start of March and my hospital rotations, I figure I have climbed about 70 days outside including 10 days at Skaha, 8 days in Thailand, 4 days in Nova Scotia, 12 days at Squamish, 3 days at Red River Gorge, and many more days in the mountains around Calgary (the Bugs, Castle Mountain, Lake Louise, Grassi). I do long alpine routes, sport and trad (and ice in the winter), and on average I climb twice a week at the gym. Keep in mind, most medical schools are 4 year programs. Mine is 3 years, meaning that we squash 4 years of learning into 3 years (by cutting out holidays) so it's pretty intense, and I have still managed to do a lot of climbing (and other stuff... in addition to climbing, I play hockey 4-6 times/week during the winter on two separate teams, backcountry ski when it's too cold to ice climb, learn languages, etc.)
I certainly would disagree with Rockkid in that I don't think that my passion for climbing has interfered with my performance in medical school. I've scored well above the average in all of my exams and just today, my preceptor told me that my knowledge base far exceeded that of other students at my level, I have 3 separate research projects on the go in various stages of publication, I founded and co-chaired a student interest group on international health and organized a conference, I was involved in the admissions process for new students, I shadowed about 4-6 hours/week in general surgery and familiy medicine, etc.
Getting into medical school is pretty hard given that there's a limited number of spots, so I think it is relatively safe to assume that if you're in medicine, a) you're intelligent (or at least have skills so that you can fake it... maybe you memorize stuff easily), b) you have strong time management skills, c) you're determined. If you're all of these things, you should have no problem excelling in medical school and continuing to enjoy all the things that make life worth living.
PM me if you have any questions.
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climbs4fun
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Oct 4, 2005, 8:48 PM
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In reply to: """I am pre-med and I still find time to climb and snowboard, it depends where your priorities lie.""" --Renohandjabs Obviously not with saving lives and learning to be a good doctor. I'm so glad there's medical malpractice . . . Seems to me that you should only have one passion in life, if you're gonna excel at it. Don't anyone talk about that "Type-A personality" crap. I'd bet most doctors who climb all the time and make regular trips to the Himilayas aren't going to help cure cancer any time soon. So do you wanna be a great doctor or a great climber? Pick one.
I disagree with that entirely. Doesn't matter what field you are in, you need something of your own outside of work. Keeps you sane. My best friend is an ER doc. Personally I'll take my climbing, snowboarding doc over one with nothing else in their lives but the inside of a hospital.
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iamthewallress
Oct 4, 2005, 9:02 PM
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In reply to: I'd bet most doctors who climb all the time and make regular trips to the Himilayas aren't going to help cure cancer any time soon.
Most doctors who work all the time aren't going to cure cancer either.
I think that a lot of us type A folks have realized over the years that a day off or a full nights sleep can yeild more results than working like an ox.
Working to exhaustion and a single minded approach to ones passions does not tend to lend itself to creative advancements in any feild.
A couple of years ago I invented an unprecidentedly sensitive method to detect and concentrate the agent that causes mad cow disease. I think I had the idea on a day where I probably speant more than half of it reading these news groups. If the company that I was working for successfully produces a blood test with this method, then the US blood donor population may increase by 8%, and your chances of getting an incurable deadly disease via tranfusion will be further reduced. Maybe it's not curing cancer, but it's something useful, and I don't think I'd have had a scrap more to contribute if I'd avoided the message boards or worked every weekend instead of going to Yosemite.
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ozarkclimber
Oct 4, 2005, 9:08 PM
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Do what you want, you'll find time for your priorities
I'm a fourth year medical student, sooo politely referred to as the sport-climber and boulderer in a previous post by midwestishell. I still manage to climb some alpine, rock, ice, take 2-3 trips out west per year. 2-3 times in the gym/week depending on the class/work load. If crags were 30min away, i'd be outside all the time. I also mountain bike, and to top it all off, i'm stuck in st. louis. If I can manage to find time to climb, I'm sure you can. Family Medicine is great in that you can set up your business how you like. They also have a repayment program in rural health. I know several residents that climb/bike daily. I worked with a vascular surgeon that had a family, and mountain biked daily. He was one of the most successful surgeons in the area, and a great biker. Med-school is demanding, but you'll find time. I can't speak for residency quite yet, but from what I've seen, some are more demanding than others, but everybody still manages to find a way to make it through and have fun.
Having an MD after your name doesn't mean you have to give up the rest of your life. Yes, you can be successful at MORE than ONE thing. As a matter of fact, in my limited experience, it seemed most of the patients preferred doctors that had interests and were diverse. You don't have to be labeled as type-A to make it work.
Some people will tell you to avoid medicine, some will tell you it's the best thing on earth. Just remember it's your decision, and your life.
PM if you like...
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nutsnbolts
Oct 4, 2005, 9:17 PM
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To OP:
Finished residency, chief residency, and now in fellowship. Started climbing 3 years ago in residency, and typically go 3-4 times a week, one of which is outside if weather and wife permit. Sure, there were hospital rotations which shaved my climbing to twice a week on occasion, but this was rare. Conversely there were also rotations I was climbing 5-6 days a week. Onsighting most 11's sport now. Done bouldering comps and learning trad currently. Been to Smith, JT, Red Rocks, Black Hills among others. I know ER residents, surgery residents, radiology, path, and all primary care specialties (IM, peds, FP) and several RNs and PAs who climb, all of varying intensity. So follow your dream, you can climb around any job you choose if you make it a priority. You may not be Caldwell but you can have a fullfilling career and climb too.
Rokkid you sir are an idiot.
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crackmd
Oct 4, 2005, 10:00 PM
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I am currently a fellow in pediatric critical care which means I have completed 4-years of med school, 3-years of pediatric residency and 2 of 3 years of critical care fellowship. I truly believe that a motivated person can become a physician and become/remain a strong climber. There are lot of hours in the day and days in the week and so on. Time management and dedication will keep your abilities tuned. Indoor gyms also help a bunch. Location is key! Don't underestimate its value.
During the course of my medical training I have been able to actually improve my climbing and have had many great climbing achievements. Gone for me are the days of heading out to the crag spontaneously and climbing outside 15-days per month. I now have to plan most of my adventures ahead of time and average significantly less than 15-days. Despite this drop in outdoor time, I still take pride in climbing harder than most (not all) of the residents of Hidden Valley and Camp 4. I feel that I have a legitimate shot at freeing a vast majority of the Moonlight Buttress which I hope to do next spring.
To the previous poster who says a physician should only have passion for medicine I say that my passion for climbing has only made me a better doctor. I am passionate about a lot of things (my fiance, climbing, medicine). All these things contribute to who I am and how I define myself. Climbing has honed my ability to stay calm in stressful situations which is a skill that has extrapolated to my career working with critically ill children.
My training has not been without tough spells however. A lot goes into making a climbing day happen. Nothing is more frustrating than getting your rare full day off only to have climbing thwarted by the weather, a flaky partner or just low motivation. I have made the most of my trips which during training I average about 4-weeks per year. My partners marvel about how I can climb 14-days straight at Indian Creek without a rest day. I don't know the exact answer, but is lies somewhere between an intense love of jamming off-sized splitters and fear that it will rain for 4-days straight after my rest day. When I leave a climbing trip I want to feel that I gave my best and left everything I had there.
I am looking for a job to start around July of next year after I finish my fellowship. Things are about to get really good for me. I will working 14-days per month (24 hour call days) as opposed to the little time off I have now. I have a choice of possible locales and hope to find a hospital in a climbing down like Flagstaff, Denver, Chattanooga, Vegas all of whom are advertising positions. Best of all, I am going to become a husband to an amazing woman who just so happens to be my main climbing partner.
So in summary, based on my own experience, a motivated person can have an intense medical career while remaining a strong climber with a rewarding interpersonal life. There are some tricks I learned along the way and some mistakes I made that I would be happy to share with the OP (don't want to bore the climbing community with this). PM me anytime.
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crackmd
Oct 4, 2005, 10:02 PM
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Hey Tim. Thanks for the accolades. It was good hanging with you up in the Whitney area. We should go back next year.
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climbsomething
Oct 4, 2005, 10:29 PM
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I hope they do. I am sure they deserve it.
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jenfu
Oct 4, 2005, 10:55 PM
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This has become a long thread so I'll just add a bit. Before going to medical school, I was deciding between that and pursuing a "climbing-based" career. I've just finished a 2 year fellowship, a 4 year residency, and 4 years of medical school. I can summarize as follows:
In medical school, you have to become the master of the WEEKEND trip. Time and flexibility are very short, especially in the 3rd and 4th years. So, you've got to be close enough to rock for those weekend trips.
Once you enter residency, there will be very few weeks were you will even have both of the weekend days off. You may manage a Saturday OR Sunday, very rarely both. Therefore, you have to become the master of the DAY trip. If you live close enough and with weather that cooperates enough to allow getting somewhere for the day, then climbing is possible.
So, I guess the secret is finding a place for your medical training where you can get to a crag in a very short amount of time.
As for after training is over, I'll let you know in a little while :)
Good Luck.
Cheers,
-JenFu
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rockkid55
Oct 5, 2005, 4:00 PM
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All you doctors sound pretty cool. I wish I'd met more climbers/doctors like you fine folk. My comments are the result of constantly meeting ass-hole doctors who show up to the rock in their Mercedes and act like they're cock-of-the-block, whether they're good climbers or not. These "type-A" personalities who "work hard and play hard" generally piss me off. They take themselves too damn seriously. They need personality implants.
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crimpstrength
Oct 5, 2005, 4:18 PM
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My father is a physician with one semi partner. He takes call every other weekend and every other night during the week depending on who had the weekend. He is not a climber, but from his schedule I would be confident in saying that he could have time on his off nights and weekends if he made it. Now add in a family and all that and he would not have much time for it. On another hand, I know a family practice guy who climbs every weekend and is an active part of our local climbing culture, setting up bouldering comps, outdoor cleanups, and frequents the gym often. I can tell you that after school, your time at the rock will depend on what discipline of medicine you calls you. I am a pre med student and because of my dad, know a ton of doctors. They all say that a division called them, and that is how they made the best of their abilities as doctors. In short, my surgeon father has a very busy and demanding work and call schedule where a family practice climbing friend of mine leads a very active outdoor life.
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cpdxf
Oct 5, 2005, 4:38 PM
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Buddy:
If you are looking for advice on RC.com about becoming a MD, medicine is not for you.
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mountaindoc
Oct 5, 2005, 5:30 PM
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You have received a lot of good info here, as well as testimonials from various folks at different stages of their respective careers, so here is another. I'm an intern in Ohio, yes Ohio. It sucks, I have to drive at least 5 hours to get to good climbing, and there is no gym here. That has put a damper on my climbing. However, I just spent 10 days in Chamonix climbing, and I have been able to fit in 2 trips to the Red in Kentucky. I have been able to maintain 5.11 sport. Med school was much easier, as I was in Phoenix, and crags were only 45 min away and there was a gym which I made it to 3 days a week. Studying will put a cramp on your climbing a bit your first 2 years, but you should be pretty wide open your 3rd and 4th years. The fourth year will be the best of all of your education. I did a rotation in Moab for a month and got in 15 climbing days. I also took a month to travel in Peru and spent 2 weeks in the Cordillera Blanca. I climbed in Mexico during my first year and Thailand during my second year. I also took a six week road trip at the end of my first year and climbed in Cali, Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Wyoming, and Colorado.
If it is important to you, you will be able to make time. The ease will be affected of course by where you get accepted. Right now FP is wide open, and you can easily find a good residency that has good access to climbing. That may change by the time you get finished though. And some food for thought, primary care is changing in this country. Becoming a PA is 1 less year of education and no residency, and they are getting to do more and more as the years go on. Hope this has helped.
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mikewong
Oct 5, 2005, 9:50 PM
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It depends.
I'm a surgeon (OB/GYN to be specific) and to be honest, I don't climb like I used to in terms of grade or quantity. I used to climb daily, but found that residency and family made getting out to the crags difficult except for weekends, especially now.
The good news is that it doesn't have to be that way. Medicine is flexible and you can pick a specialty that is conducive to climbing (eg. radiology, emergency, etc) or design your hours around your lifestyle (with compensation adjusted accordingly).
The only really important thing that I have to add is that be sure that this is what you want to do because the minimum investment is approximately 7 years after college, extreme stress, suffering, sleep deprivation, and debt. All of these sacrifices will leave you with no alternate job other than what you are trained for if you don't like what you picked as a specialty.
My climbing partner is also a doctor.
Mike
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jimfix
Oct 5, 2005, 10:12 PM
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MD's don't need to climb
They can levitate using their ego's natural buoyancy
Note: I'm currently training to become a real doctor
Moohahaha the wonders of an edit button
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harmonydoc
Oct 5, 2005, 10:13 PM
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In reply to: All of these sacrifices will leave you with no alternate job other than what you are trained for if you don't like what you picked as a specialty.
Speaking as a formerly practicing primary care pediatrician now working in the clinical department at a biotech company, I can tell you that is not quite true. There are always alternatives, but it takes some effort and creativity to find them.
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mikewong
Oct 5, 2005, 10:35 PM
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In reply to: MD's don't need to climb They can levitate using there ego's natural buoyancy Note: I'm currently training to become a real doctor
I can tell you're still training because 'there' should be spelled 'their.'
Don't forget that only our handwriting should be bad, not our grammar.
P.S. My ego is not that big, residency destroyed it.
Mike :lol:
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mikewong
Oct 5, 2005, 10:40 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: All of these sacrifices will leave you with no alternate job other than what you are trained for if you don't like what you picked as a specialty. Speaking as a formerly practicing primary care pediatrician now working in the clinical department at a biotech company, I can tell you that is not quite true. There are always alternatives, but it takes some effort and creativity to find them.
I stand corrected. The point is that it is a huge investment with few alternatives if you decide you don't like it or the lifestyle.
Mike
P.S. Could I get a job like yours?
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flatlander
Oct 5, 2005, 10:49 PM
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I'm in Med-School, and I get to climb once or twice a week. Add at least one hangboard workout into the mix, and I'm about as strong as I've ever been (not that strong...), and maybe getting stronger (probably a result of ditching longer trad routes for bouldering). You just have to be organized with your time.
That said, I don't get to spend the whole weekend, or even a whole day out at a good crag. I'm currently limited to bouldering. However, being on the quarter system allows me to make several big trips a year. A friend of mine did his first two walls in his first year of med-school.
Ben
Ps: Being married to my main climbing partner helps...family time and climbing time can be combined to some extent.
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leinosaur
Oct 6, 2005, 4:28 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: If not, what "near-doc" profession would be most conducive to continued climbing, e.g. Physician's Assistant, Nurse-practitioner, etc? If you want to become a "near doc" then please become a PA, not an NP. If you view NPs as junior doctors then you will be very unwelcome in the field and in nursing school especially. Nursing is a great profession, but not if you view it as something like being a doctor only easier.
Thanks for the advice, didn't mean to step on toes. I certainly don't think nurses' jobs are easier, having spent some time in hospitals & hospice situations. Less glorified, surely, and less well-compensated perhaps, though the latter is changing in some cases. Sorry for the callous inclusion.
NB: LONG, BORING PERSONAL STUFF FOLLOWS. ONLY THE MOST INTERESTED NEED CONTINUE >>>
(so many have offered further dialogue, I thought I'd open up to further comment)
My recent concerns were centered on time in school, me being 34 and still a few years away from med school. My earlier degrees were in Letters and Law, which didn't include many pre-med standards. I've enjoyed teaching languages but am ready to put them to good use outside the classroom. Law school was fun but the profession just ain't for me.
I've been thrilled to get such a wealth of advice from MD climbers & others. My sister's a non-climbing but quite athletic intern and has been much of my inspiration, and a wealth of advice and strategy.
She's seen me at my laziest and still thinks I'll make a good doc, and enjoy the challenge of med school. I asked her what I wouldn't get out of PA school, and she said mostly the added intellectual challenge, i.e. lots of detailed science you won't necessarily need . . .
But she knows that's lots of what draws me to it too.
Frankly climbing's driven me to it, made me challenge myself, get more organized, get in shape, plan more, and think even harder about how folks can get broke or spring a leak any time, and that I'd like to be among those who know what to do about it. WFR was a great first step but when they reminded us on the last day of the course that we were probably at the height of our patient assessment powers, it hurt.
Then when I told my wife "those med school leanings are back again" and she said, "I think you should do it . . ." well, I started asking questions and making plans.
Pre-med's going well but it'll take a couple more years: MCAT (or GRE) in April '07 if all goes well, so no school 'til fall '08. That gives a few years to prepare the fam and do a bunch of volunteer work & shadowing, hopefully improve my medical Spanish.
Unfortunately the pre-school requirements for MD's & PA's don't really overlap that much, science-wise, so I've got to decide here pretty quick. Tonight I'm leaning MD even though interns make teacher-wages!
The warning that sparked this thread was from my father-in-law whose dad was a thoracic surgeon in the 1940's & 50's. He's known lots of other docs, too, but I've insisted all along that I'll stake out my time & climb with my family. I'm a pretty efficient student.
I figure also, what time I miss with my wife and son, I'll be doing something respectable, at least!
Peace & thanks again,
Rob
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hugepedro
Oct 6, 2005, 6:22 AM
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Rob,
Don't know if this is your bag, but perhaps consider dentistry. Most dentists only work 4 days a week, and you work for yourself so you make your own schedule.
Dental school is damn hard to get into, but I'm sure you're up to it. I believe there's one at OU.
And consider this. There is a huge percentage of dentists who are currently in their mid-fifties and will be retiring soon. The dental schools are not ramping up to meet the coming shortfall. The value of dental services will be going nowhere but up. And most dental patients don't have dental insurance, so you get paid cash dolla's and set your price based on the market and the quality of service/office experience you can offer. You aren't a slave to the price caps of the government and big insurance companies.
Good luck with whatever you choose,
Peter
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leinosaur
Apr 23, 2008, 3:30 AM
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Hey gang -
Thought I would follow up on this thread I started a couple of years ago.
In contrast to many "big ideas" I've had in my life, this medical gig is one I've really followed up on.
Within a few months of the OP I decided on the Physician Assistant route, and at the end of that school year, quit my teaching job to return to school full-time, which was the only way I'd finish PA school before the age of 40. I didn't have any of the science pre-requisites, so I've been a pre-PA undergrad for the last two years. Is my wife supportive, or what?
Undergraduate work has been much more rewarding the second time around, and the years of teaching made being a student a piece of cake.
The application process was onerous but I got a few offers and will start the Master of Health Science / Physician Associate program at Oklahoma U this July.
I've used these last few years of relative "calm before the storm" to get in shape and get in lots of climbing, including an incredible 3-week jaunt to Red Rocks, the Needles, and Yosemite last May, as well as tons of great stuff in OK and AR. Serious fitness training has finally become a habit, and has not surprisingly made a huge difference in my climbing.
With the master's program coming right up, I am prepared to climb in shorter-but-more-intense bursts for the next couple of years, as the gym near the PA school has recently improved by leaps and bounds, and my drive to the good granite will be shorter, as well. Day- rather than weekend-trips will be the usual MO, I expect, but you bet your ass I'll be sending once I get out there.
Once PA school's over, it's over - no residency, etc., and I'm committing to practice in small towns in OK for a few years in exchange for the better part of the costs of school. That will allow me to live right where the rock is, while honing my med skills and spending more time with my kids (I have two now!) than I would have been able to during a fourth year of school, residency, fellowship, etc. that the Doctor-path would have brought.
Once that debt's paid, we're likely to travel some, as every wilderness or other climby destination we've fantasized about seems to have a small town needing a PA right nearby. I saw a seasonal post advertised earlier this spring, entitled "Live and work in Yosemite National Park . . ." Four-out-of-seven day shifts sound pretty good.
My wife and I made the joint decision that PA would just work better for us. I'll be a bit sorry to miss the extra chemistry and such that MD training would provide, but at this point the flexibility, and being in the field and back in family life about four years sooner, are just more important than the greater money or authority an MD or DO degree would provide.
Thanks again for your sage advice a few years back. Remember me in a few years if you are looking for a PA for your climbing-town primary care practice, or your remote expedition, or whatever.
Peace
Rob Leinau
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