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beny
Apr 27, 2006, 12:20 AM
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after reading some of the posts that have come up, i have a few comments. i'll direct them to the intended reader.
mike, you say that you don't know who 'madlfash' is. i don't believe this. i do believe that when i met you, you were climbing with madflash. madflash's repsonse to you supports this. you state that paying arkansas taxes should grant one the right to make decisions about bolting. last time i checked, sams was part of a NATIONAL forest. i may not know how things work in arkansas, but in the rest of the country, national forests and national parks are supported by user fees and NATIONAL monies. unfortunately for you, uncle sam just recieved my federal income taxes. i guess that means i get a say.
i'm sorry you had routes renamed by someone from springfield- sounds like you should speak to him about it. but yes, it does sound like you're whining- lucky for you a new guide is coming out and there's more time for you to correct the previous errors before they're made again.
madflash, you've asked for an explanation on bolted cracks, specifically mentioning break in the battle, yin/yang, swamp thing. first, swamp thing's single bolt was retro work- i agree that it should be removed. yin/yang's upper bolts are unexplainable to me. obviously, the bolts on the face belove the crack seem to make sense, but i don't know about the upper bolts. perhaps clay could chime in and add his logic? break in the battle's single bolt is another one that is strange. perhaps to keep the rope out of the crack, but i don't actually believe that is the case. again, clay's thoughts would be invaluable to this discussion. two routes you didn't mention, but should have are ultimate frisbie and head lice. ultimate could avoid at least one of the bolts and the same with head lice. why are they there?
now, i'll personally address a bolt next to the crack that i placed on the 2005 route, Right to Bare Arms, that therealbovine hints of. this route is the far left roof crack near head lice and ultimate frisbie. for those that haven't climbed it, its a 50 ft face to a 12(?) ft roof with a widening, bottoming flare crack. this route was climbed ground up, on lead, with 4 bolts placed from hooks. the 4 bolts are used to protect the face and crackless roof section to gain access to the roof crack. in addition to the bolts, several gear placements are mandatory to prevent ground fall potential. after i finished the route and was having the second follow, the rope became repeatedly fixed on a cam in the roof crack. the transitioning angle of the roof and the gear-limiting nature of the flare made the fixing unavoidable unless the cam was not placed. this continuously caused a dangerous loop of rope to remain between the follower and the cam until he would be able to get to the cam. because of the strenuous nature of the climbing, the follower was unwilling to take the risk, and i doubted subsequent parties would either. this route is way too steep to clean on rap, so i decided a bolt to keep the rope out of the crack and away from the cam was the best option. the bolt remains nex to the crack. if someone can find a better way, i'm open to any ideas.
here's another problem i see. how do you know a route hasn't seen an ascent on gear? it seems that the people who are most intent on adding bolts to sams are people who have not climbed many of its routes. mike and madflash, hanging with you guys at sams last summer, i was amazed how few routes you have actually climbed at sams and the surrounding areas. you guys are the locals. i would expect you would have every single line done and wired. why not climb the existing lines, then start thinking about what could be next. you never know, your opinion on bolts and what is protectable with natural gear could be a bit different.
another thought, while these ideas and opinions are being discussed, why are more routes going up in questionable style? why can't we slow down a bit and hold off til better discussion can be had. these bolts are adding permanent scars to the rock that we may regret in a month.
holy smokes, i just saw how much i wrote. what a rant. final note, i was seroius about clays thoughts on bolted cracks. i've been curious for years and never asked. now seems like a good time.
-ben
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dobbsboy
Apr 27, 2006, 12:48 AM
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time for my 2 pennies.
Yes local is relative and no one owns the incredible sandstone at Sams. One thing I think a lot of people are over looking is that Sams Throne is no different than Yosemite, Eldo, Joshua Tree, or any other world class climbing area. Any climbing area with any history has an established ethic and group of climbers to uphold those ethics. Sams is a traditional climbing area with contributing climbers from Arkansas and all surrounding states. The people involved in this discussion are the ones responsible for upholding the traditional ethic. If someone started rap bolting on the diamond people would be up in arms. I am not advocating fighting over this but i think that those climbers not in touch with the routine of establishing routes at Sams need to be put in their place (via this forum, or a simple face to face discussion). And if anyone of you yahoos dismiss Sams as being listed amongst premier crags of the west. Get out and climb some more. For the past 2 years i have been living in Colorado, southern California and San Francisco for 7 months at each location. During that time i was fortunate enough to climb at numerous areas that i had not visited before and making some repeat trips to select areas. I loved being able to hit all of those climbing areas, but i still longed to be climbing in northern Arkansas. Since moving back to the Midwest in February i have been able to make it to Sams twice. And it breaks my heart to hear about the events of late. All it takes is one person who ignores the standards and then the Sams becomes just another HCR. Don't get me wrong, i love climbing at HCR. but when i feel like climbing HCR, i go to HCR.
So listen to the people who know the area and its' ethics intimately, even if they can't climb as hard as you do.
As for junk bolts. i have seen very few. if they need replacing then fine pursue the proper avenue of contacting the first ascentionist. but before you dismiss a 3/8" bolt go whip on some 1/4 inch stardrives then you'll see where bolt replacement efforts need to focused first.
Asta
Jesse
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therealbovine
Apr 27, 2006, 3:21 PM
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I just wanted to add this quote. It is directly from email correspondence I received today from a long time Arkansas climber who has contributed years of time and energy to the area and the climbing community.
In reply to: It’s all very sad. Those gear routes are a precious resource and if they are bolted, it will stunt our growth. Bolting Coup De Grace so that you will have a warm up for your 12d was a selfish act. Squeezing a sport route next to the best gear route in Arkansas shows a tremendous disrespect for the rock and is a complete lack of self control. There are miles and miles of good sport climbing stone in Arkansas, why ruin the most perfect wall in Arkansas? I know some of the people involved with putting those routes up and I am very disappointed by both their arrogance and disregard for the consequences of their actions. |
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golsen
Apr 27, 2006, 3:43 PM
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Glad to see some of you posting up your opinions. Everyone's got one wether they want to post it or not. And while I may not agree that Sam's is world class as Jesse says, I think it is a damn special place. I did a search last night looking for some pics of that place for old times sake and found that madflash posted on arkansasclimbingdotcom a very similar post to his first one. Madflash, this gives it away, dude. You do care and you do give a sh&&! If you didnt give a sh&&, I doubt you would be posting up. Caring is a good thing, that is the only way any of us with whatever views we have are going to have any impact on the place. So while I disagree with rapp bolts at Sam's I am glad you cared enough to post up.
It seems interesting to me that some of the arguments for preserving this traditional heritage are the same ones used in the early 80's against all rapp bolting anywhere in the US. Now I realize that many of you were not around then, but guys like John Bachar were arguing that it was much easier to start at the top of a cliff and TR then rapp and bolt than it was to start on the ground and try it ground up. The diehard Trad's arguments were that the rock is a finite resource and that rappel bolting used this resource up faster and also took ground up challenges away from those who aspire to those. Furthermore, I believe in most situations that ground up leaves less bolts, hence less impact. Most old timers I know have respect for both modes of ascent. There are world famous climbers out there who are known for their bold ascents who sport climb. I have sport climbed with Steve House of Nanga Parbat fame. The point here is that it is important to recognize the importance of all kinds of ascents and the history of particular areas.
Madflash makes one point I agree with, and that is some of the routes at Sam's have a weird ethical history (at least in my opinion). When I was there in the early 90's I came from an area that was definitely traditional; however, rapp bolting in some areas had been initiated. I was eyeing Windy Armbuster (leading not bolting) and I was told that it had been TRed before leading it. When I first heard this I was kind of pissed. The term headpointing did not become common except for the last few years in this country and that ethic seemed just plain weird to me. I was pissed because at the time it offended my sense of fairness. It did not seem fair to me that someone would TR something before leading it. The old traditional ethic wold have indicated a ground up ascent with no preinspection. Hell, windy is easy to throw a TR on, so in reality starting on the ground with no preinspection may be more contrived. The games we play in climbing sometimes makes no sense at all! I got over my sense of fairness and appreciate the efforts that were taken at Sams to minimize bolting, even if they did mess with my idea of what was fair or not.
Headpoint ascents actually give more opportunities to future climbers. Think about that new route the guy headpointed in England recently, 5.14c with poor gear. It took a lot of balls for him to do that route and he got out of it what he wanted without altering the rock. Now in the future, some guy has another challenge awaiting, the first on-site ascent. I certainly am not in line for that stuff, but someday, it will happen.
The point is that this type of ethic does not alter the rock, while rappbolting does. Not only that, rapp bolting brings the playing field down to eliminate the danger of having too place your own pro. It takes some of the opportunities away from those who may want to preserve that element of climbing. It aint for everyone. But once bolted, it is gone for good. You wont learn that type of climbing in a gym. Sounds like you wont learn much of it at HCR. I would also say that if the area has more of those head challenges than safe ones, it is less popular. It is not a sport for the masses because not all people are willing to accept those challenges. But as tony said earlier, those experiences are the ones that stay with you. I think you need to tap into a different place for that type of climbing than you do for sport climbing. People can learn that type of climbing and experience it at Sams. If rapp bolting becomes wholesale, that experience will be lessened and you will end up with another Sport Area.
Sorry for being so damn long winded, and I am definitely not a trad purist, just an older climber tryin to share an old perspective.
Good Luck.
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therealbovine
Apr 27, 2006, 9:19 PM
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Ahh Yes, The Natural...
Sure hope we can keep it that way for generations to come.
Thank you for posting the great photo!
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crankmarklar
Apr 27, 2006, 10:15 PM
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Timeless! Thanks for that Gary.
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yankee
Apr 28, 2006, 4:58 AM
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I promised myself I would not post... and look at what guys made me do! I have been here and done that on this subject to many times, on to many areas. But you guys sucked me into this one also.
One, I live in Jasper, AR and probable will for the next 40 years, so even when I say I really don't care what goes on at Sam's, I really do. I have climbed a Sam's maybe half a dozen times and will probably climb there about 800 more times in my climbing life span (40 years * 20 days out of the year=800).
Two, I believe in Bomber (I will get to this later on) fixed gear.
Three, I believe in FA's ethics or style (but number four trumps three)
Four, I believe that the masses have a say on ethics or style (i.e.- if the masses say run-out scary trad is no longer cool, so be it. If the masses say run-out scary trad is the way to go, so be it.) We are a democracy!
Five, I believe climbing is a silly thing we do, it does not make the world a better place (it does not help world hunger, does not stop wars, does not stop global warming, etc....) but to the people (like me) its our whole world and we very passionate about our beliefs.
In response to golsen last post,
Just because a route is bolted, who says someone cannot walk to the base of the route with a rack and try to lead it on gear on-sight. I have done it a few times and it is much more rewarding to me knowing I have passed up bomber pro and have done it in mad crazy style.
So, I can have my crazy death gear lead and spray around the campfire what a bad ass I am, and the next guy in line who just wants to have fun and not die can enjoy the route also. Like I said earlier climbing is a silly thing we do.
Retro bolting- yep, the bolts at Sam's are some of the worst I've seen (except for the ones I was clipping into on North America Wall in Yosemite that Royal Robbins, Yvon Chouinard, Tom Frost, Chuck Pratt put in... just making a point that the grandfathers of ethics placed bolts).
These bolts at Sam's should be replace with good hardware. IMHO the only way to go is Stainless, and better yet should be glue-in stainless bolts. The bolts at Sam's are hardware 3/8 wedge carp bolts. And don't tell me there wasn't anything better, cause I started plugging in steel in 1990 and I used Rawl 5 piece expansion bolts back then. What ever happens with this new bolting rage, the old time bomb bolts should be replace with the good stuff.
I think the boys who bolted these new routes where in the wrong.
They should have gotten overwhelming support for there endeavors before they rapped down and plugged the steel into the wall.
They should have never bolted an existing line without talking to the FA and least important they should have camouflaged their hardware.
Anyway, time will tell if the bolts will stay or go, like I said its up to the masses. If the bolts get chop and the masses want bolts I guarantee bolts will go back in the wall. If the masses don't want bolts the bolts will just keep on getting chopped. Like a good friend of mine (Eric Ulner) once said,
The ethics of an area are the ones who have the time and the energy to enforce those ethics. If there are more active rap bolter's than trad climbers then the rap bolter's will win, and vise versa.
Anyway, you won't see me anytime to soon at Sam's. I will let the smoke settle down some before I enter the war zone.
Chris Schmick
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therealbovine
Apr 28, 2006, 1:57 PM
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From Clay...
In reply to: It appears from all the comments about Sam's Throne that good intelligent comments have been made about what people want to have happen at Sam's. It would be a good idea for new bolts to be high quality stainless steal and there probably are some bolts that could use replacement. I know some climbers have been helping with that already. For those that want to help with time and money- great. I have always enjoyed the varied types of climbing that Sam's has to offer; Trad, mixed and sport. When I originally started climbing at Sam's there were no bolts and a great deal of rock that was unknown. After climbing all the routes we knew, we started climbing one area at a time, all the different features that could go. We did this ground up for the adventure of it. After several years we ran out cracks and started bolting routes , mostly mixed routes and later some sport routes. At that time, we did this because we wanted more routes to climb because there were very few established routes. I admit that we did not always do the best job and that some routes may be a bit spicy for some. It sounds like some feel bolts are in the wrong place or to close to cracks and so on. At the time, most of the routes that I put a bolt in I tried to make for others, if I failed I am sorry. There has been maybe a dozen or so of routes I put up that I retro bolted because I thought it would make it a better route. I am sorry to hear some of the climbers have problems with a few of these routes. For those that feel some routes are too safe, do not clip the bolt to spice things up, that is what I do. If I have misnamed your route or gave the wrong credit please let me know via mail or e-mail. I would love to get it right if I can in the next guide book. Oh yeah about the guide; I am really close to finishing. The whole thing is done (for the most part). I really do plan on having it out next year. I have had new responsibilities in my life that have really slowed finishing. God Bless Clay Frisbie |
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therealbovine
Apr 28, 2006, 1:58 PM
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From Clay...
In reply to: It appears from all the comments about Sam's Throne that good intelligent comments have been made about what people want to have happen at Sam's. It would be a good idea for new bolts to be high quality stainless steal and there probably are some bolts that could use replacement. I know some climbers have been helping with that already. For those that want to help with time and money- great. I have always enjoyed the varied types of climbing that Sam's has to offer; Trad, mixed and sport. When I originally started climbing at Sam's there were no bolts and a great deal of rock that was unknown. After climbing all the routes we knew, we started climbing one area at a time, all the different features that could go. We did this ground up for the adventure of it. After several years we ran out cracks and started bolting routes , mostly mixed routes and later some sport routes. At that time, we did this because we wanted more routes to climb because there were very few established routes. I admit that we did not always do the best job and that some routes may be a bit spicy for some. It sounds like some feel bolts are in the wrong place or to close to cracks and so on. At the time, most of the routes that I put a bolt in I tried to make for others, if I failed I am sorry. There has been maybe a dozen or so of routes I put up that I retro bolted because I thought it would make it a better route. I am sorry to hear some of the climbers have problems with a few of these routes. For those that feel some routes are too safe, do not clip the bolt to spice things up, that is what I do. If I have misnamed your route or gave the wrong credit please let me know via mail or e-mail. I would love to get it right if I can in the next guide book. Oh yeah about the guide; I am really close to finishing. The whole thing is done (for the most part). I really do plan on having it out next year. I have had new responsibilities in my life that have really slowed finishing. God Bless Clay Frisbie |
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madflash
Apr 28, 2006, 8:39 PM
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Chris thanks for throwing in your opinion. I agree that if a climber wants some spice on a route all they have to do is skip some bolts. If a climber wants some safety all they have to do is clip them. Yeah I also agree some, maybe not all, but definitely some of the hardware needs to be replaced. I think everyone is in agreement that the best possible hardware should be used to avoid having to go back and replace it later.
Therealbovine, thanks for getting Clay's opinion on here. I had hoped he would let his thoughts be known since this is right up his alley. I am pleased to see that he is in agreement about the need for safe hardware at Sam's. I have climbed many of his routes and they have all been memorable. I am psyched to check out the new guidebook also.
In regards to this weekend. I had hoped to make it out to Sam's, one to climb cool rock but also so that people could sit around at night and I could get some more input about this stuff. However, it looks like it is gonna dump balls so I don't know if I can make it. Honestly, I have finals next week and really should study, but you can guess what I would rather be doing.
Perhaps we could organize some kind of meeting at Sam's in May or June (if the bugs don't eat us). If not, maybe at the comp at Horseshoe this coming fall.
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beny
Apr 28, 2006, 9:54 PM
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madflash, if we'll be putting off a meeting and giving input, does this mean you'll be putting off more rapbolting at sams until we can all meet up? seems like a good temporary plan to me.
dissapointing weather this weekend. maybe next weekend would be better, and you'd have no finals nagging you. i'll call you mid-week.
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golsen
Apr 29, 2006, 3:59 AM
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In reply to: In response to golsen last post, Just because a route is bolted, who says someone cannot walk to the base of the route with a rack and try to lead it on gear on-sight. I have done it a few times and it is much more rewarding to me knowing I have passed up bomber pro and have done it in mad crazy style. So, I can have my crazy death gear lead and spray around the campfire what a bad ass I am, and the next guy in line who just wants to have fun and not die can enjoy the route also. Like I said earlier climbing is a silly thing we do. Chris Schmick
I suppose we can agree to disagree here. First, it has nothing to do with spraying around the campfire and everything to do with preserving the rock.
Second, if a route is bolted that someone can pass up all of the bolts and be able to spray about it, it is either easy or the dude doing it is relying on their ability as a climber and not the bolts (hats off), or the route should never have been bolted in the first place. My guess is that most times it is not the middle choice there.
The third thing I disagree with you on is the most important. Imagine if you will taking your logic to the end point. That is bolting is OK because you can just not clip them. With this logic at the end point everything may as well be bolted. Hell if you want it spicy just dont clip them. That is the problem wih this logic. You are right that climbing is a strange thing we do (ie: game), but games have rules wether we like em or not. If this logic is applied to climbing then bolt the NA wall make it a ladder. You want it spicy just dont clip the bolts. I am sure you would have felt different about your ascent had that been the case.
Climbing is about freedom. However, if the choise is made to bolt "spicy" routes, then the freedom for others to enjoy unaltered rock is lost.
Since you guys are more tuned in to Arkansas Climbing than I am these days, perhaps you can share with me any pure trad areas you may have in your great state? Just curious.
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cedk
Apr 30, 2006, 1:44 AM
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Two points:
1) I've never understood the "if you don't like it don't clip it" mentality. By that logic you could put a bolt ladder next to Windy Arm Buster. If you don't like it don't clip it. Ridiculous yes?
2) I respect a First Ascencionist's right to go back and add a bolt or give permission if they feel that doing so would prevent them from being responsible for injuries later on. Sometimes people want to put up routes that the rest of us will climb and enjoy and sometimes people want to put up "Perilous Journeys" that will inspire and motivate us. But that's the FA's call.
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yankee
May 1, 2006, 5:45 AM
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Golsen wrote:
In reply to: Head point ascents actually give more opportunities to future climbers. Think about that new route the guy head pointed in England recently, 5.14c with poor gear. It took a lot of balls for him to do that route and he got out of it what he wanted without altering the rock. Now in the future, some guy has another challenge awaiting, the first on-site ascent. I certainly am not in line for that stuff, but someday, it will happen. The point is that this type of ethic does not alter the rock, while rappbolting does. Not only that, rapp bolting brings the playing field down to eliminate the danger of having too place your own pro. It takes some of the opportunities away from those who may want to preserve that element of climbing. It aint for everyone. But once bolted, it is gone for good.
Your right we can agree to disagree,
One, you say head pointing gives climbers more opportunities for future climbers. I disagree, if a route is bolted, climbers can do the route using fixed protection. Also future climbers can also head point the route and future climbers can also have the opportunity to head point the route on sight. So just because a route is bolted its not "gone for good".
Second, you say bolting alters the rock. Chipping, gluing, prying loose flakes and scrubbing lichen alters the rock. Bolts and chalk are major eyesores. If we want to keep Sam's a pristine unaltered area we should remove all fixed hardware and not allow chalk.
In reply to: You are right that climbing is a strange thing we do (ie: game), but games have rules wether we like em or not.
You call climbing a game with rules. I have been climbing for over 15 years and I have never seen or heard of these rules. Chess, monopoly, poker etc... are games and yes they do have rules. You can't really call climbing a sport, there are climbing competitions and I guess you could call that a sport like football or basketball. You know, you can't go out of bounds, feet can't touch the ground after you start climb, your the winner if you make it to the top and nobody else does. You get a trophy or a ribbon.
I see climbing as a recreational activity, much like horseback riding, hiking, ridding ATVs etc... These activities do not have rules. The only rules that apply to these activities are what the local, state, or federal govt say. Such as you can not ride your ATV down this trail because the state govt. said so. Just like climbing the only rules we have are what the govt. says. Such as no power drilling in wilderness areas.
Since you say climbing has rules, you might be able to fill me in on something that has bugged me for awhile about FA's. Who actually gets the FA, is it the guy who TR's it first or is it the guy who lead it first. What about a Sport route and then someone does that Sport route on gear, that someone has done it in better style so should he have the FA and does he have the right to yank out the bolts. Also what if there is a trad route and someone solos it, does the guy who solos it get the FA. Since he has done it in better style can he go back and bolt the route if he so chooses. Just wondering since climbing has these rules I was unaware of.
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golsen
May 1, 2006, 4:25 PM
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In reply to: I see climbing as a recreational activity, much like horseback riding, hiking, ridding ATVs etc...
I admit, I lost this debate. Any climber who compares climbing to these other pursuits is someone that I will be unable to adequately communicate with. I like doing those other activities, I just dont see them as comparable to climbing, perhaps that is just me.
What I call "rules" are what guidebook authors and others call ethics and style. Like this one, "Dont add bolts to existing routes". I wonder how many guidebooks have written this statement.
Or how about another example, "This area is a traditional area and rappel bolting should not be done."
These are "rules (my word)" or ethics that guide book authors have written to try and convey the spirit of an area.
I used the word rules because when you try and explain climbing to a non-climber these ethical and stylist arguments might better be explained by saying these are unwritten rules we play by. If you dont like the word rules then call them ethics and style, I dont care.
As far as poor bolts at Sam's I have heard of very few climbers who do not believe that old bolts should be replaced. I believe that if a bolt is old and crap, then it should be replaced and if I placed that bolt, you dont have to ask for my permission. In my opinion if there is a bolt placed, it should be a good one.
I am still wondering about your logic of bolts are ok and if you want it more spicy just dont clip them. What about the NA Wall on El Cap? How about a bolt ladder from bottom to top. You want to place your own gear then do so and ignore the bolts. Would the climb be the same? I think that you can apply the same logic to an 80 foot bluff in Arkansas.
There is nothing I can do to prevent rappel placed bolts at Sam's other than express my disagreement and outrage here. My point is this. If Madflash and others want to place rapp bolts at Sam's just dont expect most of us old timers to tell them what a fine job they are doing. Most of us think it is a really f&&&ed up thing to do. That is the bottom line.
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mwintroath
May 1, 2006, 6:48 PM
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To Ben,
Yea, when I ran into to you last summer there were a lot of routes at Sam's that I had not done. I stopped climbing there years ago because I just don't like crowds much. But since I ran into you I have climbed about 80% of the cracks there with the rest coming. I have been ticking off routes at Sam's left and right. I have climbed at Sam's and valley of the blind just about every weekend since then because with the popularity of HCR Sam's is once again crowd free.
Regarding the establishment of new routes at Sam's, I have not bolted any routes and don't plan to. I have no desire to put up any routes at Sam's, or anywhere really, unless it is trad route. To me, bolting up sport lines anywhere is time wasted when I could be climbing. But I am not going to tell somebody what they can or can't do. I don't have that right. If somebody wants to put up a route I just hope they know what they are doing and do it correctly. I not going to refuse to clip a bolt because is wasn't put up on lead. So please don't assume you know what I am thinking. I guess I just don't really care if bolts are place on lead or on rappel. I guess the only thing I really do care about is that no bolts should be put on an already existing route unless you get permission from the person who put it up. To bolt up a route that has already been done is not cool. I don't think anyone in this state would do that intentionally. Personally, I am really surprised at all the controversy over this insignificant issue. Its rock climbing. It is suppose to be fun.
Mike
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ww
May 1, 2006, 7:04 PM
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Registered: Jun 23, 2005
Posts: 8
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Don't bolt more sport routes at Sam's, find another bluffline or better yet BUY some property and develop it to suite your preferences.
Replacing old crappy hardware is fine by me, don't add anything to the route that wasn't there before, don't place a bolt if you don't know what hardware is best and how to place it right.
Repeating for clarity: DON'T ADD NEW BOLTS TO AN EXISTING ROUTE.
New routing is like a drug. There are over 500 routes in that one area, climb whats already been done, most of the original ascentionists employed leave-no-trace ethics so it could be like a new route for you too, thats the ethic that best suites Sam's. Enjoy it, but remember its Public Property, not yours to change because you would like it more because your route is in the guide.
Wes Williams
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yankee
May 1, 2006, 8:04 PM
Post #94 of 144
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Registered: Feb 14, 2003
Posts: 13
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golsen wrote:
In reply to: I am still wondering about your logic of bolts are ok and if you want it more spicy just dont clip them. What about the NA Wall on El Cap? How about a bolt ladder from bottom to top. You want to place your own gear then do so and ignore the bolts. Would the climb be the same?
The NA Wall is an aid line, so all your really doing is pulling on gear to get you to the top. When Robbins, Frost, Yvon and Pratt did it they use pins to get them to the top. At the time it was considered one of the greatest climbing achievements of its time (in which I agree). Parties after that also used pines in which created pin scares. In my book, pin scares are a major ALTERATION to the rock. Now days you can do the NA Wall pretty much with clean gear, cause all your really doing is placing the gear in chipped holds (ie...pin scares).
Climbers now days are free climg routes up El Cap, but all they are really doing is climbing a bunch of chipped routes.
You ask if the NA Wall was bolted would it be the same experience? Well probable not, I probably won't have been placing gear in chipped out placements. If it had been bolted form top to bottom, I might have had the chance to hook my way up and UN-ALTERED route. Also if was bolted someone someday might have had a chance to head point on-sight the route in an unalter state, now there is nothing but chipped holds to climb up.
Maybe I should aid out a bunch of lines at Sam's with pins, and maybe someday someone could free climb them.
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golsen
May 1, 2006, 8:25 PM
Post #95 of 144
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Registered: Mar 1, 2005
Posts: 361
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Actually yankee, what some of us are saying at Sams, is leave the rock alone until you are good enough to climb it without bolts placed on rappel.
yankee you say NA is an aid line? No sh**, thanks for the education...
I suppose if you want to aid a bunch at Sams go for it.
Like I said, debating someone with your uhh intelligence is a lost cause....
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crankmarklar
May 1, 2006, 9:21 PM
Post #96 of 144
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Registered: Apr 4, 2004
Posts: 48
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In reply to: I see climbing as a recreational activity, much like horseback riding, hiking, ridding ATVs etc...
That is probably the lamest sh** I have ever heard from a climber?
Gary don't waste your time with this guy he is basically intent to argue for the sake of arguing. BTW I spent most of the winter climbing at the Valley of the Blind and never saw another party.
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yankee
May 2, 2006, 2:44 AM
Post #97 of 144
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Registered: Feb 14, 2003
Posts: 13
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golsen wrote;In reply to: Actually yankee, what some of us are saying at Sams, is leave the rock alone until you are good enough to climb it without bolts placed on rappel.
So you have no problem with bolts placed on lead?
golsen wrote:
In reply to: Like I said, debating someone with your uhh intelligence is a lost cause....
Why is it a lost cause? I am actually very intelligent.
golsen wrote:
In reply to: I believe that if a bolt is old and crap, then it should be replaced and if I placed that bolt, you dont have to ask for my permission. In my opinion if there is a bolt placed, it should be a good one.
Just one more thing I would really like to hear your rules(ie..ethics) on my FA's question.
crankmarklar wrote:
In reply to: Quote: I see climbing as a recreational activity, much like horseback riding, hiking, ridding ATVs etc... That is probably the lamest sh** I have ever heard from a climber?
As far as I know, all state and federal govt. agencies call Rock Climbing a recreational activity. They do not call it a game and they do not call it a sport. So maybe you could enlighten me on how we should classify Rock climbing.
Also, do you think horseback riding or hiking is lamer then rock climbing?
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crankmarklar
May 2, 2006, 2:54 AM
Post #98 of 144
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Registered: Apr 4, 2004
Posts: 48
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Yank,
In my opinion you're just pulling everyones chain and should stay off the board and let those of us who have a sincere concern for this issue carry on. All of those activities you mentioned are available for you at HCR get some!
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madflash
May 2, 2006, 2:58 AM
Post #99 of 144
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Registered: Oct 25, 2002
Posts: 77
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In reply to: I suppose if you want to aid a bunch at Sams go for it.
Isn't that basically what the "ethic" is? If we have a hard thin face with crap gear that needs bolts, thats fine. But we have to put the bolts in on lead, right. Doesn't that just mean that we are supposed to hang on gear on lead and drill in the bolts?
Therefore, is it safe to assume that if there is a line out at Sam's that I, for arguments sake, wanted to make a fun clip and go sport route with bolts every few feet, all I have to do is put the bolts in on aid and no one will have any problems with it. I could be nailing pins, hooking fragile flakes (possibly blowing out valuable holds in the process) and otherwise scaring the rock, but as long as I am on lead its okay?
1. Now applying your "ethic" to the route in question, What does that give us?
A bolted sport route...with possibly some bolts in akward spots and maybe some little crimps/flakes blown out from hooking.
2. Now rap bolting, What does that give us?
A bolted sport route...with bolts in good clipping spots and all holds intact.
Now any subsequent ascentionist would be able to tell the difference how exactly? Oh yeah that's right, if the bolts are in bad spots and there are flakes/crimps blown out...it was probably an "ethical" ascent. Sounds great.
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crankmarklar
May 2, 2006, 3:15 AM
Post #100 of 144
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Registered: Apr 4, 2004
Posts: 48
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Madflash,
Cut to the chase you want to grid bolt Sam's and turn it into a HCR. All the whacked analogies pretty much in tune with Yank basically saying bolts everywhere. Not one time have you guys said jack about wanting to preserve the rock and minimize the impact ie. bolts. All of us are sharing this area and moving in this confrontational banter is a no win and the rock will invariably pay the price. Think in terms of 30-40 years down the road not just your next weekend at the crag.
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