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mother_sheep
Sep 16, 2002, 5:44 PM
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I'm kind of new at this but doesn't it matter entirely on how and where the piece is placed. In general, can it be said that one is better than the other without knowing what type of route you're on? Just curious.
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tradguy
Sep 16, 2002, 5:53 PM
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Given all options, I'd most prefer to fall on a well placed big hex. They just seem so bomber whenever I throw one in somewhere.
The short answer to your question, is that there are good cam placements and there are bad cam placements, just like there are good nut placements and bad nut placements. Depending on the route, sometimes I will place more of one than the other, but I wouldn't say that I would have a preference for falling on either, because if I don't have confidence in a piece to hold a fall, I'll either replace it with something else, or I will add another just above or below it. Good placement is an essential skill.
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rollingstone
Sep 16, 2002, 6:04 PM
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I think the essential issue is not whether one is falling on a cam or nut, per se, but rather which piece is actually more secure; if they are used properly, and the placement allows, I prefer a nut, but that may be because I used them for six years before cams ever came out.
So much depends on type of rock, type of climb, and degree of leader proficiency leading and placing gear...
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grandwall
Sep 16, 2002, 6:11 PM
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It depends on how high I am above my last piece. I find that if I'm more than 15 feet above, I prefer to fall on a cam and if I'm less than 15 feet above, I prefer to fall on a nut (preferably a #2 stopper, it never drops me).
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ergophobe
Sep 16, 2002, 6:21 PM
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I remember when Friends first hit the market and everyone used to say - "Sure they go in easily, but I wouldn't want to fall on one." I guess we've gotten used to it.
- a lot of people think cams are magic and place them in spots that flare too much. A good cam placement is bomber, but they can be difficult to judge sometimes.
- small cams only need to walk a little bit before they go past their expansion range and become practically useless.
- passive gear is often more directional than cams and more likely to come out due to the movement of the rope.
- after a hard fall, cams are usually easier to clean.
Just remember my golden rule:
Whenever possible, have TWO bomber pieces between you and disaster.
Disaster means the ground, a ledge, a rope-cutter flake, a point tree, whatever. Don't get tunnel vision or myopia - keep track of the hasards and always go for redundancy if possible.
Tom
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rrrADAM
Sep 16, 2002, 6:22 PM
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I would rather fall on, in order of confidence:
1. Stoppers
2. Hexes
3. Bolts
4. Cams
This depends on rock type, and configuration of crack, but given the option, I place much more passive pro, even though I have 31 cams. In fact, I sew up climbs with 98% passive, mainly Stoppers.
Get your nut tool, and come climb with me.
[ This Message was edited by: rrradam on 2002-09-16 11:24 ]
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tradguy
Sep 16, 2002, 6:44 PM
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Quote: if I'm less than 15 feet above, I prefer to fall on a nut (preferably a #2 stopper, it never drops me).
Grandwall - I hope for your sake that last statement about the #2 stopper was a joke. You know the #1 and #2 stoppers are only rated to 2 kN, right? If I was 14 feet above a #2 stopper and about to peel, I think I'd be sh*tting myself.
Of course, I'm not a big aid climber, so I'm not really used to trusting the tiny stuff so much.
[ This Message was edited by: tradguy on 2002-09-16 11:44 ]
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tradclmbr
Sep 16, 2002, 6:50 PM
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All things equal (and they never are, since some placements obviously take cams better and some nuts better) I would rather fall on a well place nut buried so deep in a tapering crack that your second will curse you. Ive never had a cam come out, but moving parts scare me.
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antimatter
Sep 16, 2002, 7:16 PM
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Of course, "bomber" pro will take any fall so it all depends, but I'd rather fall on a well placed nut.
I've fallen on cams but their tendency to walk or sometimes marginal placement in flaring cracks can make them less than bomber.
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xcit
Sep 16, 2002, 7:26 PM
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I'm going to be the second to call BS on this (falling on a #2 stopper).
Tradguy is right, if your taking 14ft lead falls on a #2 you are very lucky you havent woke up in the Golden City with a harp in hand wondering what went wrong!%#@!
[ This Message was edited by: xcit on 2002-09-16 12:28 ]
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murf
Sep 16, 2002, 7:50 PM
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What a stupid question...
The answer is, of course, it depends.
Murf
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sparky
Sep 16, 2002, 8:16 PM
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it depends on the placement and the size, i'd rather fall on a small nut than a small cam (like oo cam or lower) because it's cheaper to replace an rp
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grandwall
Sep 16, 2002, 8:35 PM
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xcit, tradguy: I said that I was 15 feet above the stopper making that a 30 foot fall not a 15 foot fall! Yes, I read on the stopper that it is rated for 2kN of force and yes, it turns out I am joking. I don't know many people who prefer to take a 30 foot whipper on a #2 stopper so I figured it would be assumed that I was joking, but thanks for straightening that out.
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jerrygarcia
Sep 16, 2002, 8:58 PM
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Stoppers
I always feel comfortable with my stopper placements. That is not the case with all my cam placements.
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wlderdude
Sep 17, 2002, 11:32 AM
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I like cams because they are easier to get out once you have fallen on them (as was mentioned earlier).
Nut just look more comforting in everything but sandstone.
In Sandstone, cams are king.
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murf
Sep 17, 2002, 2:22 PM
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Overhung,
You get to decide, OK? You're the one hanging there, slammin' in that piece, baby. Put in that bomber cam. Oh, but wait, you only have one of that size and it looks like it will fit farther up, at the crux. So, damn, I've got a nut that will do just fine. But this is my first piece, and I'd like it to be multidirectional, back to the cam, I guess. Whoops the rock looks alittle fractured here, maybe this isn't a good place for this cam.
And on and on and on....
Murf
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murf
Sep 17, 2002, 3:42 PM
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There's no such thing as "in general".
Are you asking:
For full strength gear ( no microcams/nuts ) in perfect placements, for which the energy used to place the gear is equal, on which would you rather fall?
Because that's a stupid question.
Murf
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camhead
Sep 17, 2002, 4:24 PM
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Dude, it's all subjective.
As roughly as I can categorise, here goes:
cams in sandstone are usually better than nuts, and nuts in granite can be stronger than cams.
The many variables and advantages of these two pieces have been covered previously in this thread, so here is all that I will say:
When you are truly at your physical limits while climbing trad, cams are quicker and easier to place, and thus reduce the pump factor. I believe that this is their greatest advantage.
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josher
Sep 17, 2002, 4:37 PM
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I took a 30 fall on a trad climb at JTree. a hex, then a nut popped until a cam finally cought me. I would think that any pro will hold, as long as they are placed correctly. (actual results may very).
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parangole
Sep 17, 2002, 6:00 PM
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I was doing an A2 than a nut got out and hit my head, my helmet save me. But the helmet...
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hawk233
Sep 18, 2002, 3:38 AM
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I would want to fall on the piece that was the most bomber.
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toobigtoclimb
Sep 18, 2002, 2:55 PM
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I'll go with:
1. (Good) Bolt
2. Stoppers
3. Hexes
4. Cams
You can't beat the simplicity of the physics of a stopper or hex in a good crack.
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tradguy
Sep 18, 2002, 3:34 PM
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I've taken 3 real lead falls on gear:
One was because there was a snake in the 5.10 crack, and it startled me so much I just flew off the rock. Small fall, on a nut, I think. Had no worries about that one - no time to think, really.
Second was another 5.10 crack in cold (~35 degrees) damp weather. Was downclimbing (encroaching darkness) with numb hands, and just slid out. Not a huge fall - maybe 5 ft - onto a cam that pulled. The nut below it caught me about 1 ft from the ground (laid out sideways - like Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible). That totally freaked me out. I attribute the pulled cam to the fact that the sioux quartzite rock (very hard and slick) was damp, making it even slicker, and the cam was a Wired Bliss, which has a particular pattern on the contact surface of the cam units that give them much less contact area on smooth rack than something like a camalot or friend. It was placed upward vertically into a crack under an overhang, and basically just slid straight down and out. I climbed back up after the fall and retrieved the rest of my gear and down climbed to the ground - not leading anything for another 6 to 8 months (it was winter in Iowa and Minnesota anyway).
Third was a big 30+ ft whipper onto a #1.5 Friend on a 5.10 overhanging finger crack. Rock was Red River Gorge sandstone, and the piece held great. No worries at all, though I was starting to get a bit concerned as I was falling, wondering when I would stop.
Anyway my point is, with experiences you develop preferences and styles. Ask me now, and I'd say I don't mind falling on cams, and in many cases I think I would prefer it. If you asked me that same question shortly after episode #2 above, I would certainly have had a different story.
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murf
Sep 18, 2002, 4:06 PM
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Overhung,
I'll answer that question. I feel comfortable with both. I don't worry about which one I like/trust more because at any particular point on a particular climbI make a decision to place one or the other. I will place the piece which works best for that time and place and I will make it as bomber as it can be.
A trad leader cannot trust nuts over cams or visa versa *in general*, because at some point in a climb you will be presented with the fact that only a nut or only a cam will work, or that you have only a nut or cam that will work. You can't be concerned over the fact that its not your favorite piece, or your favorite type of piece. Nuts are bomber, cams are bomber, hexes are bomber, bolts ( normal exclusions apply ) are bomber. If they weren't we'd know.
If in your mind you have beliefs that one or another type of gear is better, at some point, that belief will bite you in the ass, probably when you can least offord it.
Murf
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josher
Sep 18, 2002, 5:09 PM
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fell on my nuts once. Hurt like hell.
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