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dallas27
Aug 14, 2007, 6:28 PM
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go the petzl.com and click on the reverso product under descenders. Watch the video via the link in the lower left. Skip to about 1/8 to 1/4 in the video where a guy is belaying a girl in what seems to be the 2001 space oddyssey station.
This link _should_ take you their.
http://en.petzl.com/petzl/SportProduits?Produit=204
He uses the brake hand plam down, and feeds & slips, using the guide hand to manage the friction.
What's it called?
thanks in advance
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jt512
Aug 14, 2007, 6:30 PM
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dallas27 wrote: This link _should_ take you their. http://en.petzl.com/petzl/SportProduits?Produit=204 He uses the brake hand plam down, and feeds & slips, using the guide hand to manage the friction. What's it called?
Slow.
Jay
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Valarc
Aug 14, 2007, 6:33 PM
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Oh boy, here we go...
I'm posting in this one just so it's easy to find later and follow all the hilarity that is about to ensue...
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thomasribiere
Aug 14, 2007, 6:39 PM
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dallas27 wrote: go the petzl.com and click on the reverso product under descenders. Watch the video via the link in the lower left. Skip to about 1/8 to 1/4 in the video where a guy is belaying a girl in what seems to be the 2001 space oddyssey station. This link _should_ take you their. http://en.petzl.com/...Produits?Produit=204 He uses the brake hand plam down, and feeds & slips, using the guide hand to manage the friction. What's it called? thanks in advance
ultra- cautious? or how-you-should-belay?
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JAB
Aug 14, 2007, 6:43 PM
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Let me repost the screenshot from the other thread:
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dallas27
Aug 14, 2007, 6:58 PM
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what's up with the comments? I just wanted to know if that "style" had a particular name or not. I'm asking honestly, and have searched the forums for a couple days before asking the question in order not to repost old questions, to the best of my ability at least.
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Valarc
Aug 14, 2007, 7:03 PM
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dallas27 wrote: what's up with the comments? I just wanted to know if that "style" had a particular name or not. I'm asking honestly, and have searched the forums for a couple days before asking the question in order not to repost old questions, to the best of my ability at least.
This IS an old question, and one that has started massive flame wars on this site. That's why there are so many comments. Look for threads discussing "palm up" versus "palm down" belay styles, and you will see what I mean.
I tried to start a thread to discuss various belay styles in the past, and by already realizing that the topic starts massive flames, I actually ended up making the flames even worse when I tried to keep the thread from going down that road. A lesson learned in RC.com 'etiquette'.
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swaghole
Aug 14, 2007, 7:03 PM
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that chick IS hot. I didn't notice anything else.
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dallas27
Aug 14, 2007, 7:08 PM
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Valarc wrote: This IS an old question, and one that has started massive flame wars on this site. That's why there are so many comments. Look for threads discussing "palm up" versus "palm down" belay styles, and you will see what I mean. I tried to start a thread to discuss various belay styles in the past, and by already realizing that the topic starts massive flames, I actually ended up making the flames even worse when I tried to keep the thread from going down that road. A lesson learned in RC.com 'etiquette'.
First, thank your for responding. I did check old threads, and I am aware. I kinda felt those flame wars were about which was better than the other, which I didn't think my question gets into.
I'm inferring from your post that it's called the "palms down" method. I thought the palm's down method involved releasing the guide hand, backing up the brake hand, sliding it up, and then returning the guide hand. Or are they both considered the "plam's down" method, just with a variation?
(This post was edited by dallas27 on Aug 14, 2007, 7:20 PM)
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thomasribiere
Aug 14, 2007, 7:22 PM
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I think that most french people belay palm down. Could we call it French Style?
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Valarc
Aug 14, 2007, 7:52 PM
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dallas27 wrote: I kinda felt those flame wars were about which was better than the other, which I didn't think my question gets into.
Someone recently said that there are only five actual threads on RC.com - no matter what the topic, all will eventually degrade into one of these discussions. Pretty accurate description in my eyes.
In reply to: I'm inferring from your post that it's called the "palms down" method.
It's one of several palms down methods, all of which Jay will tell you are responsible for the eating of babies, destruction of the ozone layer, and us losing the war. I've never heard a specific name given for the technique shown in the video, but I tried it out in the name of being well-rounded and found it felt pretty sketchy.
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dallas27
Aug 14, 2007, 7:59 PM
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sketchy slow? or sketchy unsafe?
I like it for top roping and gym climbing, and will use it for a leader who has a slow climbing style. For faster climbers, the pinch (I use a pinky guide) is the only thing fast enough for me with my short arms.
But i digress, the question was it's name, and it would seem it technically doesn't have a formal name. Maybe french, maybe hands' down.
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reg
Aug 14, 2007, 8:01 PM
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it's japanese - it's called the "friendly friction happy hands plams down" method. it works!
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kobaz
Aug 14, 2007, 8:08 PM
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swaghole wrote: that chick IS hot. I didn't notice anything else.
Heh.
I noticed the guy uses hand over hand for lowering. Personally I think this is not ideal. I just keep both hands on the rope and shuffle the rope through.
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jt512
Aug 14, 2007, 8:18 PM
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kobaz wrote: swaghole wrote: that chick IS hot. I didn't notice anything else. Heh. I noticed the guy uses hand over hand for lowering. Personally I think this is not ideal. I just keep both hands on the rope and shuffle the rope through.
Try keeping both hands on the brake side of the rope, and just letting the rope slide through your hands without shuffling. Your partner will appreciate the smoother ride, and you'll be putting less stress on the anchor, a possible consideration in, say, a bail situation.
Jay
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kobaz
Aug 14, 2007, 8:23 PM
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jt512 wrote: kobaz wrote: swaghole wrote: that chick IS hot. I didn't notice anything else. Heh. I noticed the guy uses hand over hand for lowering. Personally I think this is not ideal. I just keep both hands on the rope and shuffle the rope through. Try keeping both hands on the brake side of the rope, and just letting the rope slide through your hands without shuffling. Your partner will appreciate the smoother ride, and you'll be putting less stress on the anchor, a possible consideration in, say, a bail situation. Jay
To further elaborate on my style. I don't do a jerky shuffle. It's a modified sliding shuffle. I would rather not let the rope just slide through, I would rather go a little slower and have more control, and more time to see if there are any kinks headed my way.
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kobaz
Aug 14, 2007, 8:26 PM
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And in a sketchy bail situation I would of course adjust my style to be as gentle as possible on the anchor.
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jt512
Aug 14, 2007, 8:32 PM
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kobaz wrote: jt512 wrote: kobaz wrote: swaghole wrote: that chick IS hot. I didn't notice anything else. Heh. I noticed the guy uses hand over hand for lowering. Personally I think this is not ideal. I just keep both hands on the rope and shuffle the rope through. Try keeping both hands on the brake side of the rope, and just letting the rope slide through your hands without shuffling. Your partner will appreciate the smoother ride, and you'll be putting less stress on the anchor, a possible consideration in, say, a bail situation. Jay To further elaborate on my style. I don't do a jerky shuffle. It's a modified sliding shuffle. I would rather not let the rope just slide through, I would rather go a little slower and have more control, and more time to see if there are any kinks headed my way.
Believe it or not, you have more control by letting the rope slide through your hands than you do by shuffling. Either way, you can stop the climber instantaneously, but by letting the rope slide through, you don't jerk the climber at all (not a little, not a modified amount, but not at all), and you can vary the speed to suit the situation.
Jay
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kobaz
Aug 14, 2007, 8:38 PM
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jt512 wrote: kobaz wrote: jt512 wrote: kobaz wrote: swaghole wrote: that chick IS hot. I didn't notice anything else. Heh. I noticed the guy uses hand over hand for lowering. Personally I think this is not ideal. I just keep both hands on the rope and shuffle the rope through. Try keeping both hands on the brake side of the rope, and just letting the rope slide through your hands without shuffling. Your partner will appreciate the smoother ride, and you'll be putting less stress on the anchor, a possible consideration in, say, a bail situation. Jay To further elaborate on my style. I don't do a jerky shuffle. It's a modified sliding shuffle. I would rather not let the rope just slide through, I would rather go a little slower and have more control, and more time to see if there are any kinks headed my way. Believe it or not, you have more control by letting the rope slide through your hands than you do by shuffling. Either way, you can stop the climber instantaneously, but by letting the rope slide through, you don't jerk the climber at all (not a little, not a modified amount, but not at all), and you can vary the speed to suit the situation. Jay
I taught the same method I use to my brother and I don't feel any jerking at all as the climber.
What methods have you used to determine which gives you more control? Not trying to give you a hard time, I'm curious.
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jt512
Aug 14, 2007, 8:45 PM
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kobaz wrote: jt512 wrote: kobaz wrote: jt512 wrote: kobaz wrote: swaghole wrote: that chick IS hot. I didn't notice anything else. Heh. I noticed the guy uses hand over hand for lowering. Personally I think this is not ideal. I just keep both hands on the rope and shuffle the rope through. Try keeping both hands on the brake side of the rope, and just letting the rope slide through your hands without shuffling. Your partner will appreciate the smoother ride, and you'll be putting less stress on the anchor, a possible consideration in, say, a bail situation. Jay To further elaborate on my style. I don't do a jerky shuffle. It's a modified sliding shuffle. I would rather not let the rope just slide through, I would rather go a little slower and have more control, and more time to see if there are any kinks headed my way. Believe it or not, you have more control by letting the rope slide through your hands than you do by shuffling. Either way, you can stop the climber instantaneously, but by letting the rope slide through, you don't jerk the climber at all (not a little, not a modified amount, but not at all), and you can vary the speed to suit the situation. Jay I taught the same method I use to my brother and I don't feel any jerking at all as the climber. What methods have you used to determine which gives you more control? Not trying to give you a hard time, I'm curious.
I've probably used every method of belaying and lowering ever devised, other than the foot belay. However, I can prove that you have more control over lowering when you let rope slide through the device than by shuffling you hands in two steps:
1. You can stop your partner instantly whether you let rope slide through your hands or shuffle them.
2. You can lower you partner as fast or as slow as you want if you let rope slide through your hands, but when shuffling your hands, your lowering speed is limited by the speed at which you can shuffle your hands back and forth.
Therefore, you have more control over lowering when you let rope slide through your hands.
Jay
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cracklover
Aug 14, 2007, 8:46 PM
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There is nothing whatsoever wrong with the way the belayer is feeding out slack to the leader, and this method is common to all non-auto-locking devices. This is simply the palm-down version. The palm-up version looks identical, but with the brake hand oriented (surprise, surprise) the other way.
What's a bit unusual, though, is the way slack is taken in. Still, this method is pretty common when "adjusting", or taking in very small amounts of slack. Frankly, it doesn't even work for taking in larger amounts of slack, since it's dependent on the rope either being very stiff, or there being so little rope between the brake hand and the device that the rope won't buckle when you slide the brake hand back up it.
In short, there's no specific name for it, but you could simply say: palm down lead belaying, where fine adjustments are done without any pinch on the brake strand. I think that would be pretty clear.
GO
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markc
Aug 14, 2007, 8:54 PM
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For shits and giggles, I'd call that the palm-down default-lockoff method. While most proponents of the system seem to advocate changing brake hands and always having a grip on the brake strand, this guy just lets the line go slack and feed through his hand. His grip is probably looser at times than mine is with the palm-up pinch-and-slide method.
It seems a bit silly to ask for specific names for the different belay techniques, like different styles of kung fu. However you choose to do so, I'd like to be belayed with the don't-short-rope-and-definitely-never-drop-me method.
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kobaz
Aug 14, 2007, 8:58 PM
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jt512 wrote: kobaz wrote: jt512 wrote: kobaz wrote: jt512 wrote: kobaz wrote: swaghole wrote: that chick IS hot. I didn't notice anything else. Heh. I noticed the guy uses hand over hand for lowering. Personally I think this is not ideal. I just keep both hands on the rope and shuffle the rope through. Try keeping both hands on the brake side of the rope, and just letting the rope slide through your hands without shuffling. Your partner will appreciate the smoother ride, and you'll be putting less stress on the anchor, a possible consideration in, say, a bail situation. Jay To further elaborate on my style. I don't do a jerky shuffle. It's a modified sliding shuffle. I would rather not let the rope just slide through, I would rather go a little slower and have more control, and more time to see if there are any kinks headed my way. Believe it or not, you have more control by letting the rope slide through your hands than you do by shuffling. Either way, you can stop the climber instantaneously, but by letting the rope slide through, you don't jerk the climber at all (not a little, not a modified amount, but not at all), and you can vary the speed to suit the situation. Jay I taught the same method I use to my brother and I don't feel any jerking at all as the climber. What methods have you used to determine which gives you more control? Not trying to give you a hard time, I'm curious. I've probably used every method of belaying and lowering ever devised, other than the foot belay. However, I can prove that you have more control over lowering when you let rope slide through the device than by shuffling you hands in two steps: 1. You can stop your partner instantly whether you let rope slide through your hands or shuffle them. 2. You can lower you partner as fast or as slow as you want if you let rope slide through your hands, but when shuffling your hands, your lowering speed is limited by the speed at which you can shuffle your hands back and forth. Therefore, you have more control over lowering when you let rope slide through your hands. Jay
I see. It's a semantic difference then. My definition of control didn't include speed, just the ability to lock off and safely lower the climber. Lowering faster than I can shuffle is not something I was interested in doing.
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