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john1987
Oct 4, 2002, 12:36 AM
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Do you think its safe to use? For example if I forgot my belay device for some reason would it be worth using or would it be better to just not climb until you could go get a new one?
Thanks
John
Edit: Just chaged a period to a question mark
[ This Message was edited by: john1987 on 2002-10-03 17:37 ]
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crazywacky
Oct 4, 2002, 12:44 AM
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The Munter Hitch is safe, but NOT the prefered way of belaying these days.
Definitely get a belay device.
For 16 Bucks you can significantly reduce the chances of killing your climber.
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john1987
Oct 4, 2002, 12:46 AM
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I have a belay device I was just curious
Thanks
John
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crazywacky
Oct 4, 2002, 12:49 AM
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No Problem..
I just re-read your post...
If you forgot it, then yea, I'd probably go ahead and climb..but I would probably find some other method to belay..carabiner brake, small hole of an 8, etc... maybe my partners atc.. unless mine was the only one between the two of us.
I've just never really had a good time with Munter Hitches..
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jhump
Oct 4, 2002, 1:02 AM
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The munter is safe and solid. In fact its stopping power is far greater than the ATC and similar devices. It doesn't feed too smoothly for leading, and lowering/rapelling will twist the rope. To get the hang of it, just leave your other devices at home for a day. Just belay with the munter, and build a carabiner bar brake to rapell. So, when you drop something on a wall, or just want to go really light, you are prepared.
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jt512
Oct 4, 2002, 1:04 AM
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Quote:I'd probably go ahead and climb..but I would probably find some other method to belay..carabiner brake, small hole of an 8
A Munter hitch is as safe as any belay device. You have to remember, though, that maximum braking force is achieved by holding the two strands of rope parallel to each other, the opposite of what you do with an ATC.
As to a biner brake: Never belay with a biner brake. Biner brakes are for rappelling only. They do not produce enough braking force for belaying.
-Jay
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john1987
Oct 4, 2002, 1:08 AM
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What is a carabiner bar brake?
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apollodorus
Oct 4, 2002, 2:12 AM
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Definitely use the carabiner brake instead of the munter hitch for rappeling.
You take two carabiners and mount them to your harness with the gates opposed. You pull a bight of the rap rope(s) though, and then clip a third carabiner across the other two; the rope(s) run over the back of the third carabiner. The third carabiner winds up not clipped into the other two, but is trapped to them by the rope. The gate of the third carabiner is on the side of the two where the rope comes in.
The bend in the rope as it comes under the two, over the third, and back out the two provides quite a bit of friction. You can double the brake up with another on for thin or single ropes.
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wlderdude
Oct 4, 2002, 2:14 AM
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A biner brajke is a set up of biners that you can rappel with. The friction is simila to that of a figure 8. Go to the library and find an older climbing book and it will definetly have a picture with instructions. They take like 8 biners (I have not used one in years), and they can't be weird ahped sport biners. I think ovals work best.
I have a question, does the Mutner HItch wear your rope much? Being that the nylon rubs on the nylon, it seems like it would get awful hot and wear pretty fast.
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topher
Oct 4, 2002, 2:31 AM
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ok i have been messing around with the munter latly, and was wanting to know how you use it when building an anchore. i just dont get it?
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okieterry
Oct 4, 2002, 2:47 AM
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Back in 1979 or so I climbed with Wolfgang Gullich and some of his buds for about a month in Eldorado Springs. We used nothing but the Munter to belay all the time. Once you get used to it, it really works well. The cool thing was is that it kinda auto locks and all you need is a big pear biner.
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jt512
Oct 4, 2002, 3:04 AM
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Quote:Appollodorus: Definitely use the carabiner brake instead of the munter hitch for rappeling.
You take two carabiners and mount them to your harness with the gates opposed. You pull a bight of the rap rope(s) though...
That is incorrect. You do not put the bight of rope through the biners that you clip to your harness (call these the Harness Biners). You clip two more biners with gates reversed and opposed {call these the Main Biners) into the Harness Biners. You feed the bight of rope through the Main Biners, and then clip two more biners (the Brake Biners) with gates opening in the same direction and facing down thru the bight and across the Main Biners. Thus, a total of 6 biners are needed (though a single locking biner can replace the two Harness Biners). Needless to say, this is hard to describe with words alone; however, if you've set it up correctly, the bight of rope runs over the spine of the two Brake Biners.
The biner brake is a very important technique to know, especially on multipitch roues. I've had to use it three times: once when I dropped my ATC, once when I left it on the ground, and once when my partner forgot to bring up his. In a pinch, BTW, you can set up a biner brake using sport biners, but it is awkward.
-Jay
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curt
Oct 4, 2002, 3:09 AM
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The Munter Hitch is indeed a totally safe belay method. I have used it quite a bit. In fact, I have used it with twin ropes (twin munter hitches) on separate biners to belay. the only down sides to the Munter are:
1) The knot flips back and forth through the biner when alternating between feeding out and reeling in rope, which is a pain to manage. and,
2) If you use it to rappel or lower someone with, it will indeed twist the hell out of your rope.
Otherwise, it is great.
Curt
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coldclimb
Oct 4, 2002, 3:17 AM
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I've only used it for rappelling, but it worked great for that. Just remember lock your biner, it's not fun when you weight it and the biner opens.
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knotrocket
Oct 4, 2002, 4:29 PM
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For the loads experienced in sport climbing (not specifically "sport", but you you get the idea...) the Munter is more than sufficient. However, I've seen videos of it used as a belay knot for rescue loads, which in the video were assumed to be 600 lbs. (which there is a standard for) and then subjected to a 1 ft. fall onto 3 M of rope. The guy's hand almost got sucked up into the crab as the rope fumed with smoke and the stokes basket plummetted (sic?) towards Earth. Again, not typical of loads seen in this sport.
Just remember to pull, like Terry said , the ropes TOGETHER, not OPPOSITE, like most other devices...
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ride
Oct 4, 2002, 4:57 PM
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I use Carabiner Brakes all the time for rapping. I use the Munter Hitches for belaying in a pinch (sometimes more )
Yes, The munter will twist the hell out of your rope, but that's the only downside to it I see.
I've never used Carabiner brakes for belaying, didn't seem like it would work too well, but for rappelling I think I could say that it is my preferred rap device, I have four 'biners specifically for it.
The cool thing is having many people at the crags say "whoa, I've never actually SEEN someone using that, I've only read about it in books..."
I think being able to use minimal gear and still get the job done is a huge plus.
These two methods are very effective and I would encourage anyone seriously into climbing to learn and master these techniques.
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elvislegs
Oct 4, 2002, 5:59 PM
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I would like to thank JT512 and Mtngeo for the RARE pieces of good advice on this site. Your ACTUAL knowledge (as opposed to the much more common speculative knowledge) almost offsets the bad that others do by spreading bad advice around. Thank you.
I would also like to caution those that are pretty sure they know something and decide to present it as fact. Please reconsider, the advice you give could cost someone their life.
P.S. The Munter is bomber, I use it often.
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djnibs
Oct 5, 2002, 2:45 AM
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here is a link to how to make a carabiner brake rappel device:
http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/CrabBrake.htm
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coclimber26
Oct 5, 2002, 7:21 PM
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When climbing multi pitch climbs i use the munter. I think it works good with double ropes. I have a story about the munter...Me and 2 friends were climbing the bastille crack in eldorado canyon. I led the 3rd pitch and set up a belay point. I belayed the 2 guys up then swapped the rack..my partner started on the 4th pitch as I belayed with the munter. He put a piece in about 3 ft. up then kept going there was a mantle about 15ft up. He slipped on the mantle and went for a ride. He clipped my backpack on the way down. I hugged the rock and gripped the ropes tight. my directional popped and the locking biner went out of my reach..the munter hitch held the fall (around 30ft.) In the open position! I've climbed in europe alot and they use it more there than here. I have rapelled with it before but it twists the rope. I use a gigi for rapelling and belaying up seconds with double ropes and the munter for belaying lead climbers...
[ This Message was edited by: coclimber26 on 2002-10-05 12:22 ]
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joebuzz
Oct 5, 2002, 9:05 PM
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I use it quite a bit and am very happy with it. Everyone's pros & cons are all true. I figure, you should at least understand it and be able to use it if need be(ie; Leaving your belay device at home). Go to your local crag and play with its different uses. Have fun.
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