- There's no problem with ovals on both sides, other than that they're much weaker...

Christ.

Ok, for the millionth time:

• Why does the Straight gate go to the bolt side and bent and/or wire go to rope?

• What advantages does the wire gate provide over a bent gate? Easier to clip? Lighter?

• Why is ok to use wire gates on both sides?

Doesn't that stand to reason that you could use bent gates on both sides, or ovals on both sides?

- Bent gate carabiners do not belong on the bolt or gear end of a quickdraw because they are much more prone to being wedged against said bolt/gear and thus opening themselves than straight gate or wire gate carabiners.

- Wire gates offer lighter carabiners with typically no loss of strength. Most people find them easier to clip as well, although this obviously varies per person.

- There's no problem with ovals on both sides, other than that they're much weaker than asymmetrical D carabiners. Wiregates on both sides is basically testament to the fact that, despite answer #1, any carabiner snagging on bolts/gear and unclipping itself on the draw end is incredibly unlikely.

The reason wire gates are recommended on the rope end of draws is primarily to ameliorate the gate bounce phenomenon that might occur if the rope-end biner hits something.

Okay...was that really necessary? Like it was really that much of an inconvenience for you to explain it to help the guy out, especially since you didn't even have to respond to his post in the first place.

"Other than they're much weaker!" That's a hell of a problem.

Ovals can have as little as 6 kN open-gate strength, which is clearly too little for any biner that one might take lead fall onto (see the recent thread about the broken biner accident). Good sport climbing biners have at least 9 kN open-gate strength. Some have 10 kN.

Jay

They also cut down on gate flutter during a fall (that is, the tendency for the gate to flutter open and shut due to small movements of the carabiner) so its less likely to be in an open (and thus weaker) configuration when you fall.

First, you may call it unlikely, but I've seen it happen so many times (and often in the strangest of situations) that its a legitimate concern.

I figured there are some good arguments for/against using wiregates on both ends.

I agree that stronger is generally preferable, but I think it comes down to personal envelope of risk.

Ovals are highly unlikely to fail, but asymm-Ds are less likely still.

How much is one willing to gamble?

...but it's his neck and he can make his own decisions...at least now he knows.t benefit.

No, it has nothing to do with "personable envelope of risk." There is no rational reason to use 6-kN carabiners in your quickdraws. It is increasing risk with no offsetting benefit.

I've said this over and over again: It is a mistake to think of gear failure in probabilistic terms. For all intents and purposes, a piece of gear will break with certainty if its breaking strength is exceeded and will not break (with certainty) if its breaking strength is not exceeded.

Biners get loaded with gates open a lot. One would expect that a fall above the first bolt of a sport would generate a force at the bolt exceeding the open-gate breaking strength of a typical oval biner. Therefore, oval biners are not suitable for use in quickdraws. They are not intended for use in quickdraws, and no quickdraw manufacturer that I am aware of sells quickdraws assembled with oval biners.

That isn't the question! What the hell is the point of gambling on something like this? Who in his right mind intentionally uses non-standard inferior climbing gear for the sole purpose of adding risk to a climb -- especially a sport climb!

I don't think that he knows much at this point at all, and worse yet, he now thinks he does. I doubt that he's searched for the thread about the biner failure that was posted a few days ago. I doubt that he understands that the most important criterion in a carabiner is its open gate strength. The disadvantages of using wiregates on the bolt end of the draw have either not been emphasized or not mentioned. And so on.

Well, how do you want to define benefit? Say someone has ovals laying around and wants to use them rather than buying new gear?

You could make the very valid argument that it's stupid to increase the risk level to save a few bucks, but again, that's not our decision to make for him.

Easy to say, impossible to do. Your breaking strengths example makes the issue look simple, which it isn't. There are a million and one factors that go into how and why a carabiner is loaded. You have two ifs in your statement above: if it's loaded past breaking strength, and if it's not.

You're the statistician, so what are the odds of each on a given fall?

I'd agree with all that, excepting that what's suitable when is a personal decision. Some folks out there like to solo, I hear.

Would you rather have a draw with ovals 10 feet below you on the chance it might hold, or be risking a ledge fall?

I think we're discussing two different contexts here. You're looking at the issue very specifically. I'm looking at it very generally.

I already said. No probabilities should be considered. It should be considered deterministic. We're talking Newtonian mechanics, not quantum mechanics. After 4 weeks of high school physics one should be able to calculate that the force of a fall before clipping the 2nd bolt of a typical sport climb with a static belay will exceed 6 kN. That's it. Done.

That has nothing to do with the decision of what gear to buy for sport climbing. Please drop this line of reasoning. It is too ridiculous to continue replying to.

That question is irrelevant. The relevant question is whether I want a 6 kN biner below me or a 10 kN biner.

I'm looking at the question in the OP's context.

Repeated falls onto a bolt will roughen the surface of the biner. This can wear on the rope if you turn the quickdraw around. Probably not a big deal in the end but it's nice to minimize wear on the rope.

Note the use of qualifiers: Typical sport climb, static belay. What about dynamic belay? What about an atypical sport climb?

Look, I agree with you in spirit - that there are better options than what the OP suggested for the purpose he's asking about. I'm just saying that these types of decisions really need to be made onsite, in action.

What's suitable being a personal decision has nothing to do with gear purchase?

I'd rephrase to "Am I willing to risk a 6kN biner below me?"

I got a couple of questions about quickdraws, and really wanting to understand the 'why' part of how quickdraws are setup. I did search the forums, but didn't find the answers I was looking for.

I was off to tackle my first lead last weekend, and needed quickdraws, so I read the forum, and blindly (and possibly ignorantly) went to REI and bought some BD nylon bones, some hotwires, and some quicksilver straight gates. I wish I would have understood more, because I made some stupid purchases also, like BD QS bent gates, nuetrinos, and DOVALs. Stupid only that I didn't have what I needed to make all the draws useful.

This may be off topic slightly, but why is there even question on this? It seems the simple, bottom line solution would be to buy strong, properly designed quickdraws, instead of trying to make your own.

• Why is ok to use wire gates on both sides? Doesn't that stand to reason that you could use bent gates on both sides, or ovals on both sides?