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pijh
Apr 29, 2008, 4:20 AM
Post #126 of 213
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In reply to: How do you know that they have helped you, and how do you know that some other form of training might have helped you more?
Jay - it seems you are now shifting your argument from "pull ups won't help your climbing" to "pull ups won't help your climbing as much as X".
we all know that there is no one miracle exercise that will improve one's climbing... it is a combination of many exercises (be they physical, mental, technical, etc). So don't stray from the original argument that you presented:
In reply to: Is this something you are doing for fun? because it won't help you climb better.
To which I ask: what evidence do YOU have that pull ups don't make a climber better - other than yourself (who has never trained using pull ups)? And just to let you know... "namely a quantitative search of a journal database that showed that there is almost no scientific research on climbing training" has nothing to do with the argument at hand. All that means is that there is no scientific research that validates or invalidates the argument that pull ups better one's climbing.
Like i said before, 2 other climbers and I began a pull up exercise in January and we have progressed from V2 to V5 in the 3 months since then. Also note: no other exercises (aside from climbing) were incorporated other the pull up exercise. Now - is it possible all of the gains were from simply climbing and the pull ups did nothing? perhaps. However, it would seem that those gains are unusual for 3 people to realize from climbing alone. (Unless this happens often? It just hasn't with the people I know).
On another note...
In reply to: I don't know what has compelled you to fly off the handle and resort to putting words in mouth. Calm the fuck down. In reply to: And I'm done arguing with a complete fucking moron.
It seems that you are the one that needs to chill - this thread was created to attempt to determine if pull ups can benefit one's climbing ability... does it matter that much?
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jt512
Apr 29, 2008, 4:26 AM
Post #127 of 213
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pijh wrote: In reply to: How do you know that they have helped you, and how do you know that some other form of training might have helped you more? Jay - it seems you are now shifting your argument from "pull ups won't help your climbing" to "pull ups won't help your climbing as much as X". we all know that there is no one miracle exercise that will improve one's climbing... it is a combination of many exercises (be they physical, mental, technical, etc). So don't stray from the original argument that you presented: In reply to: Is this something you are doing for fun? because it won't help you climb better. To which I ask: what evidence do YOU have that pull ups don't make a climber better - other than yourself (who has never trained using pull ups)? And just to let you know... "namely a quantitative search of a journal database that showed that there is almost no scientific research on climbing training" has nothing to do with the argument at hand. All that means is that there is no scientific research that validates or invalidates the argument that pull ups better one's climbing. Like i said before, 2 other climbers and I began a pull up exercise in January and we have progressed from V2 to V5 in the 3 months since then. Also note: no other exercises (aside from climbing) were incorporated other the pull up exercise. Now - is it possible all of the gains were from simply climbing and the pull ups did nothing? perhaps. However, it would seem that those gains are unusual for 3 people to realize from climbing alone. (Unless this happens often? It just hasn't with the people I know). On another note... In reply to: I don't know what has compelled you to fly off the handle and resort to putting words in mouth. Calm the fuck down. In reply to: And I'm done arguing with a complete fucking moron. It seems that you are the one that needs to chill - this thread was created to attempt to determine if pull ups can benefit one's climbing ability... does it matter that much?
No, he's proved repeatedly that he's a complete fucking moron, and a complete waste of my time. That's not me flying off the handle; more like me being mentally retarded. I should have figured it out long ago.
Jay
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jt512
Apr 29, 2008, 5:02 AM
Post #128 of 213
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pijh wrote: [ Like i said before, 2 other climbers and I began a pull up exercise in January and we have progressed from V2 to V5 in the 3 months since then.
I did the same without doing any pullups, and I'm a terrible boulderer, so I don't think it's too uncommon.
Jay
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onceahardman
Apr 29, 2008, 12:09 PM
Post #129 of 213
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In reply to: The material in SCC is based on well-established kinesiologic principles, which have been studied scientifically, motion studies of climbers, and principles of exercise physiology.
Really have to watch the pea under the thimble, folks, the burden has shifted from "objectivity" to "subjectivity"...
Speaking of "well-established kineologic principles", why are you unwilling to consider the moment arm of the humerus on the glenoid fossa during a pullup (which you dislike), in comparison to campusing (which you recommend)?
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jt512
Apr 29, 2008, 4:30 PM
Post #130 of 213
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onceahardman wrote: In reply to: The material in SCC is based on well-established kinesiologic principles, which have been studied scientifically, motion studies of climbers, and principles of exercise physiology. Really have to watch the pea under the thimble, folks, the burden has shifted from "objectivity" to "subjectivity"... Speaking of "well-established kineologic principles", why are you unwilling to consider the moment arm of the humerus on the glenoid fossa during a pullup (which you dislike), in comparison to campusing (which you recommend)?
Using the same "logic" as yours, someone in another thread came to the conclusion that swimming was good training for climbing.
In fact, clearly, swimming is superior to pull-ups as training for climbing: not only do we have flexion at the shoulder, but in certain kicks we also have leg extension at the knee and pelvis. Climbers often resort to leg extension to allow continued progress up the wall when fatigue prohibits further pull-ups.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Apr 29, 2008, 5:22 PM)
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curtis_g
Apr 29, 2008, 5:12 PM
Post #131 of 213
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jt512 wrote: I'm 5.13a weak. And you? Jay
And you sound douchebag strong.
and look at you on that 12, nice biceps
p.s. Just 11's here.
spra...err climb on.
- Curtis
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curtis_g
Apr 29, 2008, 5:16 PM
Post #132 of 213
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pijh wrote: we all know that there is no one miracle exercise that will improve one's climbing...
Damn, and I thought climbing was my miracle.
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onceahardman
Apr 29, 2008, 6:13 PM
Post #133 of 213
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In reply to: In fact, clearly, swimming is superior to pull-ups as training for climbing: not only do we have flexion at the shoulder
Nice analysis...(not)...
The dominant forces at the shoulder relevant to climbing are extension and adduction. Flexion is only used (generally) in reaching up for holds.
In reply to: Using the same "logic" as yours, someone in another thread came to the conclusion that swimming was good training for climbing.
You are falling apart. You like one exercise which strengthens adduction and extension (campusing), while you dislike another (pullups). Clearly, your kinesiology/biomechanics is lacking. As I said a long time ago, consult a textbook.
Enjoy your 5.12s.
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Johnny_Fang
Apr 29, 2008, 6:23 PM
Post #134 of 213
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wait, but what about pullups helping to score with the ladies or not?
i did some unknown climb the other day and struggled at the crux. it was really tough, but i was strong enough to do it because of all my strength training.
then i watched the guy after me, who cruised through the crux without breaking a sweat because he spotted a perfect foot placement that i didn't see. my "strength" had compensated for my crappy technique. i was so focused on my strong arms that i didn't consider what possibilities i had for my feet. what a dumbass. a strong dumbass, but a dumbass nonetheless.
i wish i had spent more time on technique and less time on strength over the past few years...
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rockclimbergabor
Apr 29, 2008, 6:36 PM
Post #135 of 213
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P.S:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_m5egc9Yk24
The first part of the vid is irrelevant to the topic (it just shows the training room of David Macia), but in the end you will see world cup Champion Edu Marin training.. and *GASP* look at what he's doing. Pullups!
But I guess he has no idea what he's doing right. I mean, he's done a few 5.15s and stuff, but none of that matters, because pullups are just making him a worse climber. Ill let him know to stop and soon enough he will be onsighting the 5.15s no problem.
So now, I'm pretty sure this entire forum has proven Jay completely wrong. Sorry big guy.
(This post was edited by rockclimbergabor on Apr 29, 2008, 6:38 PM)
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jt512
Apr 29, 2008, 6:39 PM
Post #136 of 213
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onceahardman wrote: In reply to: In fact, clearly, swimming is superior to pull-ups as training for climbing: not only do we have flexion at the shoulder Nice analysis...(not)... The dominant forces at the shoulder relevant to climbing are extension and adduction. Flexion is only used (generally) in reaching up for holds. In reply to: Using the same "logic" as yours, someone in another thread came to the conclusion that swimming was good training for climbing. You are falling apart. You like one exercise which strengthens adduction and extension (campusing), while you dislike another (pullups). Clearly, your kinesiology/biomechanics is lacking. As I said a long time ago, consult a textbook. Enjoy your 5.12s.
Enjoy your 5.8s.
Jay
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onceahardman
Apr 29, 2008, 7:05 PM
Post #137 of 213
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Hi Johnny...
You are absolutely right. I have tried to be clear on this, and in an effort at not re-inventing the wheel with every post, I've tried to be brief.
Technique training will yield the fastest and most profound benefit to your climbing.
Strength training, as an adjunct to technique training, will help you get as good as you can be. Pullups, and creative variations thereof, are an important part of strength training, especially at the shoulder. (PT concept="proximal stability leads to distal mobility").
Also, as you found out, if your technique fails you, it's nice to have enough strength to step in and fill the gap. 
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kappydane
Apr 29, 2008, 7:13 PM
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Climbing is mainly about CONTACT strength. The ability to stay in contact with the rock. This is largely isometric, not isotonic. This fact is why the skinny guys and little women can do amazing feats without having to do chin ups. Flexibility and strength to weight ratios are more important in most climbing than pure chin up power. I think the person posting about his progress because of his chin up workouts is missing the fact that most new climbers have very little isometric strength as it relates to climbing. 3 months of climbing will build that very quickly and will account for a lot of your progress.
The problem with most of this discussion is not defining your target audience. If you want to be able to onsight routes, your contact strength and technique and ability to rest are paramount, especially on trad routes. But, if you are talking about burly, short, overhanging bouldering or sport routes, obviously power moves are required. But, take the power climber away from his long-move, one arm chin up, 10 foot crux route and I think you will find that his chin up power will be of less importance on slabs, finger cracks, off-widths, and thin faces. So define your goals. If you want to be able to do ANY 5.11, you have a lot more to work on than chin up power. But if you only want to do overhanging finger pocketed, no foot hold boulder problems, get your beanie surgically attached and do one arms to your hearts content.
Given 30 minutes to workout, do you really think doing chin ups would be better than a hang board or pumping laps on a climb? But, after a good workout at the gym or on off days from climbing, obviously chin ups are a reasonable supplement but would not be missed much in your overall climbing advancement if they were never added.
This is from someone who used to do 500 chin ups in less than 40 minutes and now doesn't do any. I have found that, for ME, the best training is doing laps on routes a grade or two below my on-sight level. But, then again, what do I know. The first thing the sprayers will want to know, of course, is WHAT GRADE TO YOU CLIMB. I can't take what you say seriously if you don't climb 5.hard!!! How many coaches ever competed in ANY sport at the highest level? VERY FEW!
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jt512
Apr 29, 2008, 7:18 PM
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kappydane wrote: This is from someone who used to do 500 chin ups in less than 40 minutes and now doesn't do any.
Whew! My negative correlation is saved. I was getting a little worried with the Gabor data point in the dataset.
Jay
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angry
Apr 30, 2008, 8:58 PM
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So the last thing I'd ever want to do is to defend Jay here. Mostly because he's an ass. Also because he doesn't want defending, I'm pretty sure he actually enjoys these conflicts a lot. That is why he's been getting into so many of them lately.
However, he's got a point.
We climb at approximately the same difficulty though on vastly different types of climbs. It's rare to fail on a route due lack of pull up power.
It makes me think of "Cyborg" in Indian Creek. The crux headwall of "Cyborg" is campusing off of good finger locks. If I was unable to perform a single pullup I would have been unable to pull through. However, as Jay pointed out he's not comparing campusing to pull-ups. In this case, a true pullup was never performed.
In that example, both Jay and Onceahardman should be satified. It proves both of their points.
For the Gabor kid. First off kid, mellow out. If you're half as good as you make yourself out to be, you ought to get famous soon enough. There's no point in being so damn caustic. I can say whatever the hell I want in my mediocrity though. More to the point Gabor, what Jay is saying is that climbing is in it's infancy as a studied sport.
Lets look at elite swimmers. The first black and white tarzan was played by Johnny Weismueller (sp?). He was an olympic gold medalist. He was hands down the best and fastest swimmer in the world. If he was in the pool next to you, you were going to lose. That was probably 80 years ago. Since then countless studies, analysis, etc have gone into swimming. So much so that a typical middle of the pack college 4A woman is faster than Johnny. Fact is, there are a handfull of 16 year old girls who could crush the unbeatable Tarzan. And the speed of world record swimmers is off the charts by comparison.
So just because your peers are doing something that works does not mean that they are training in the most effective manner possible. The truth is, we are probably many many years away from knowing the best possible ways to train.
To assert your claim because you like it and to back it up with strong climbing does not prove anything. Conversly, for Jay to assert his claim likewise doesn't prove anything.
You are argueing opinions.
(This post was edited by angry on Apr 30, 2008, 11:12 PM)
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aerili
Apr 30, 2008, 10:14 PM
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kappydane wrote: The first thing the sprayers will want to know, of course, is WHAT GRADE DO YOU CLIMB. I can't take what you say seriously if you don't climb 5.hard!!! How many coaches ever competed in ANY sport at the highest level? VERY FEW!
This is true. And I have stated this many times. And if you look at the strength and conditioning professionals who don't actually coach technique but merely design and coach the required conditioning, they often have never even played the sport to any degree at all. But it doesn't matter because they understand biomechanics and physiology and exercise prescription, among other things. And if people like me had to excel in every sport of every athlete I've ever worked with, then I would just go be a pro-everything and get endorsements all day to pay my bills.
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onceahardman
Apr 30, 2008, 10:29 PM
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Hi angry, thanks for chiming in.
I agree with you, mostly, and I'd like to expand a bit.
The progress from weissmuller to modern 16 year old girls (obviously) did not happen overnight. Record times get broken, and other competitors (and trainers) look at the successful training methods. They incorporate newer methods of technique and training, and the standards increase. Most of these improved methods are not really "proven", in the mathematical, chemical, or physical science sense. Statistical improvements in VO2 max, or increased type II fiber firing rates can be shown, but the "proof" of causation of actual faster times within an individual or group of athletes is kind of *soft*. So, the results generally are allowed to speak for themselves.
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, so the best athletes get copied. We saw video above of the world cup champion doing pullups. This does not prove the pullups as causative, of course. But the motion pattern, especially at the shoulder, is the same as campusing (perhaps small variations in overall range of motion during the exercise). That's why I called campusing a pullup variant. 25 years ago, the Bachar ladder was similarly popular, and is a similar movement pattern.
My real argument was with the outright dismissal-the idea that if you do pullups, it will not only not help, but will make you worse. I think climbers can (and probably do) climb 5.15 without doing formal pullups from a chin up bar. But few won't train some variant.
Another good analogy (to me) is golf. Since Tiger Woods came on the scene, many more golfers have started strength training, and fat guys like John Daly and Craig Stadler are rarely seen on the leader board. The fat guys still win sometimes, though, and then some people stand up and say "SEE! you don't have to lift weights to win!" Well, that's true, but in the long run, the people who train the hardest will generally be better. Like climbing, most of golf is mental control and solid technique. All the pros have that. The difference is, the stronger pros win more often.
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brutusofwyde
Apr 30, 2008, 10:45 PM
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uhoh wrote: The group I work out with also does push-ups between sets of pull-ups. It doesn't really help with climbing
Push-ups, crunches, v-situps, inversion boots, and finger/hand strength exercises can help TREMENDOUSLY with your climbing, if they address your weak areas.
I'd say working on mantle moves and counterpressure moves (core strength and pushups) have helped my climbing far more than any one-arm pullups I could ever do, which, btw, seriously injured my shoulders.
In fact, sit-ups and core strength exercises are obligatory training (for me) for some of the routes I plan to try this year.
But never mind me. my weaknesses are not necessarily your weaknesses.
Cheers!
(This post was edited by brutusofwyde on Apr 30, 2008, 10:46 PM)
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rockclimbergabor
Apr 30, 2008, 11:22 PM
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angry wrote: For the Gabor kid. First off kid, mellow out. If you're half as good as you make yourself out to be, you ought to get famous soon enough. There's no point in being so damn caustic. I can say whatever the hell I want in my mediocrity though. More to the point Gabor, what Jay is saying is that climbing is in it's infancy as a studied sport.
To be honest, I had no idea what caustic meant, so I looked it up in the dictionary.
Here's what I found:
1. capable of burning, corroding, or destroying living tissue.
2. severely critical or sarcastic: a caustic remark.
It's true, I am capable of burning living tissue. But so are most people in the world, so I'm assuming thats not the one you were shooting for.
Second, severely critical or sarcastic. I dont remember being sarcastic at all this whole time, so by process of elimination, you are calling me severely critical.
Care to explain? Jay said pullups wont help your climbing. I responded that I do believe they will. As evidence I stated that many others on this forum claim they do them and it helps their climbing, and I also said that every elite competition climber I have talked to or read about does some sort of pullup training in their training. Then I posted a link to Edu Marin, a World Cup winner, doing pullups.
So I dont know what you're talking about. Perhaps the fact that Jay implied that his opinion was more important then another persons, because he climbs 13a and the other person climbs 10b.
I found this rediculous, htat Jay thinks he's so superior to everyone. I told him that if he judges importance of opinion based on how hard said person climbs, then my opinion would be way more important then his.
I didnt say it to spray, or to try to make myself seem more important or "famous" or whatever your implying here. I'm just another climber who has an opinion about this topic, and wanted to demonstrate to Jay how he made that other person feel.
So I'm not sure where that came from Angry. Please explain.
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rockclimbergabor
Apr 30, 2008, 11:30 PM
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PS -
I completely agree with you that pullups are by far not the most effective method of getting stronger. I am sure that in the next few decades people will discover much better ways to get stronger for climbing.
My point, as with onceahardman, is that Jay said it WONT HELP YOUR CLIMBING AT ALL, and also, MAKE YOU A WORSE CLIMBER.
I completely disagree with both of these statements. Maybe its not the most effective, but it definately CAN help the climbing of a lot of people, and will definately not make you a worse climber, as long as you train all other aspects as well. Thats it.
And if in all this I came off as arrogant, my bad. That wasnt the intention.
(This post was edited by rockclimbergabor on Apr 30, 2008, 11:58 PM)
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brutusofwyde
Apr 30, 2008, 11:48 PM
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rockclimbergabor wrote: (pullups) will definately not make you a worse climber, as long as you train all other aspects at all.
Tell that to the guy waiting for shoulder surgery due to injuries incurred from cranking pullups.
Brutus
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rockclimbergabor
Apr 30, 2008, 11:56 PM
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Thats completely irrelevant. You can get shoulder injuries from just about anything in climbing, and im pretty sure its way more common to get them from tweaky moves then from pullups.
As long as you do the right amount and rest appropriately (like with everything else in climbing), pullups arent very likely to cause injury. Thats why no one should power train ulesss they either have a coach, no what their doing, or consult a professional who helps them design a program.
I once injured myself from walking across the gym to the water fountain, stepped wierd and tweaked my ankle. Does this mean that no one should walk anymore, because it can cause injury?
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brutusofwyde
May 1, 2008, 12:07 AM
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Overuse injuries to the shoulder joint are quite common in climbing. Pullups often compound the problem.
Even for people who think they no (sic) what they're doing.
Not irrelevant at all.
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hafilax
May 1, 2008, 12:16 AM
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There should be a debating FAQ on this site with special notes for Straw-man arguments and arguing through pointing out the faults in other's arguments without providing a well thought out and presented alternative.
It reminds me of the time a guy gave me directions by telling me where NOT to go.
"Get onto Main St. You'll see a big red gas station. Don't turn there. Keep driving and you'll see a park with a statue of a Mastodon. Don't turn there. When you reach the guy selling flowers in the Barney suit you've gone too far."
It must have gone on for 5 minutes when "Turn on 15th Ave" would have sufficed.
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rockclimbergabor
May 1, 2008, 12:20 AM
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I agree. But it is still irrelevant. The discussion at hand is, do pullups help your climbing. Of course, when something injures you it wont help your climbing. But then again, you can get just as injured from doing hard moves. But people do hard moves all the time. It still helps their climbing. Perhaps people should just quit climbing hard then? Or climbing in general? Because you can get injured on easy moves too (ask Nick Duttle about that one..)
Are you saying that people shouldnt do training (outside of just climbing) at all? Because it can cause injury? Or are pullups particularly worse then fingerboard training, stretching, campusing, etc., the other forms of training.
It seems your being unfair to pullups here. All of the above excersizes can cause just as similar injuries. Please be a bit more clear on your reasoning
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Re: [jt512] pullups
[
