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matterunomama
Feb 12, 2009, 11:57 PM
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Yes, it was a generalization and I meant no harm to you or any of the struggling hard working Dads and Moms. Without writing an academic paper its hard to accurately parse most/some/few/all. We all do what we can with what we have where we are. The vast majority love our children most of the time and pass thru resenting them on occasion. Actually, the same with husbands and wives.
Women love to talk about this issue, and the popularity of the topic is emblematic of how conflicted we feel about it, and how judged both by society and even other women/ourselves for the way we chose or had to handle it.
'Should' is the enemy of 'is'.
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limeydave
Feb 12, 2009, 11:59 PM
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clausti wrote: limeydave wrote: clausti wrote: limeydave wrote: Do you want to show your kids how to get out there and live their lives, or how to live in a spotless house, stressed, watching 5 hours of TV on weekends getting fat? Chromosomes are not the issue here, weak people making bad choices for themselves thinking they are protecting their children is. holy mother of condemnation, batman! and only the neat freaks get fat? please It's not only the neat freaks. Also: Lazy people people with thyroid issues Ok, I admit it - I have a cleaner, and really I have no opinion except I stand by my assertion that everyone has a choice in making their priorities - edit: regardless of whether they have children you know who i'd like to hear from? some dads who don't despise the mother of their children.
Haha! Good one!
This isn't about her though.
We rarely disagree over parenting issues.
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clausti
Feb 13, 2009, 12:07 AM
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limeydave wrote: clausti wrote: limeydave wrote: clausti wrote: limeydave wrote: Do you want to show your kids how to get out there and live their lives, or how to live in a spotless house, stressed, watching 5 hours of TV on weekends getting fat? Chromosomes are not the issue here, weak people making bad choices for themselves thinking they are protecting their children is. holy mother of condemnation, batman! and only the neat freaks get fat? please It's not only the neat freaks. Also: Lazy people people with thyroid issues Ok, I admit it - I have a cleaner, and really I have no opinion except I stand by my assertion that everyone has a choice in making their priorities - edit: regardless of whether they have children you know who i'd like to hear from? some dads who don't despise the mother of their children. Haha! Good one! This isn't about her though. We rarely disagree over parenting issues.
sure it's not. the weak/fat comments weren't about her either, i'm sure.
but really, the only dads we've heard from are bitter divorcees. which, honestly, seems like it would color your perceptions and words in a discussion about gender roles and expectations.
i'd love to hear from some guys who have kids and are still amicably living with the kids mom.
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limeydave
Feb 13, 2009, 12:16 AM
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clausti wrote: limeydave wrote: clausti wrote: limeydave wrote: clausti wrote: limeydave wrote: Do you want to show your kids how to get out there and live their lives, or how to live in a spotless house, stressed, watching 5 hours of TV on weekends getting fat? Chromosomes are not the issue here, weak people making bad choices for themselves thinking they are protecting their children is. holy mother of condemnation, batman! and only the neat freaks get fat? please It's not only the neat freaks. Also: Lazy people people with thyroid issues Ok, I admit it - I have a cleaner, and really I have no opinion except I stand by my assertion that everyone has a choice in making their priorities - edit: regardless of whether they have children you know who i'd like to hear from? some dads who don't despise the mother of their children. Haha! Good one! This isn't about her though. We rarely disagree over parenting issues. sure it's not. the weak/fat comments weren't about her either, i'm sure. but really, the only dads we've heard from are bitter divorcees. which, honestly, seems like it would color your perceptions and words in a discussion about gender roles and expectations. i'd love to hear from some guys who have kids and are still amicably living with the kids mom.
Surely such a beast does not exist!
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lena_chita
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Feb 13, 2009, 3:26 AM
Post #205 of 438
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tavs wrote: lena_chita wrote: So in the above example, you have a really good husband-- the one who makes the bed, takes out trash. picks up after himself, and does laundry... maybe even does the dishes... and a good handiman, to boot... but... fair labor distribution? no! This is such a powerful and interesting statement to me. Acknowledging the range of actual experiences, the exceptions, etc...this still sums up what many think of as the "norm" of where we stand now with gender roles in the household.
Not the NORM-- as in this is how things SHOULD be-- but a norm, in terms of how things ARE,right now. Survey after survey after survey shows that women still do more housework and take on more child-rearing responsibilities than men do. Whether you like it, or understand why, is beside the point.
We are not talking about individual examples of the opposite. Yes, the opposite is possible, but as the things currently stand, it is more the exeption than the rule.
And no, I don't think a lot of women like this particularly -- which is why they are complaining about it.
But the article wasn't addressed to the rare exceptions-- b/c the rare exceptional couples have obviously figured out their own way of doing things fairly. The article was addressed to "the average" woman out there, in an average situation, b/c the situation the author finds herself in is pretty much that.
I don't disagree with lhwang and clee03-- maybe a more inspirational story along the lines of "this is how you can make it work, look, an interview with the couples who DID figure out how to work things out so neither partner feels like he/she is getting the short end of the stick" would have been really great.
But that's an entirely different story, isn't it? This was a personal story in a lot of ways... and just because you think you are/will be different than the author, it doesn't necessarily means that you should discount the experience others are having.
tavs wrote: But I can say this--I don't care what you want to say about it, but I do KNOW what I can expect from my partner.
SO certain, so absolutely certain.. good for you, really! I take it, you have never before been surprized by the actions of a person you thought you knew well. After 20 years with someone, you've seen everything there is to see, and you know exactly how they would react to every single unexpected situation, right?
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lena_chita
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Feb 13, 2009, 4:09 AM
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Sebs wrote: You provide some wonderful advice. And again, I love your insights. You're right about one thing. Part of the reason I'm feeling time stressed is making meals for the family. Something which I certainly didn't face when I was single or before children, which cooking was for parties and holidays. But other parents, please chime in too. Obesity is such a huge problem with children nowadays. And when the children go for playdates, at really nice families, it's still amazing the huge quantities of junk food or really rich food that they're served. So I might spend a lot of time and energy making sure the meals at home are really nutritious and being a role model for good eating. But this also takes time.?
We all have the things that are easy of us, and things that are more difficult, and of course it's the more difficult ones that cause more stress. And of course, time ( or rather, lack of it) is the major contributor to stress, but by far not the only one.
I happen to be pretty well-organized, and I also enjoy cooking, so cooking for my family every day doesn't feel like a major thing.
However, the days when my kids (one kid in particular) was really, really picky in terms of his food choices were the cause of incredible stress to me. Then all of a sudden I felt that cooking was taking up a huge amount of time, was a chore that I detested, and it was really unsatisfying b/c I was limited to just a few things that he would eat, and I had a choice to either cook the same boring things I was sick of, or to cook something different and to face the uphill battle of getting him to even try the thing that I cooked.
This was going on for years, until I made the decision to really push him to try new foods, focusing on just a couple of most common types of foods that I happened to cook most often. Of course, i had no more free time back then than I do now, and of course, it WAS more stressful to push, cajole, talk and otherwise persuade the kid to try that bite of broccoli that was mixed with chicken. (he happened to like individual foods, but not the foods mixed together -- or God forbid, covered in any kind of sauce)
I was getting a lot of 'flak' for it from other well-meaning parents who were telling me that really, the kid can live on cereal and occasional apples, just let go, relax, and stop "obsessing about it", "stressing about it", and otherwise spending so much mental and physical energy on it.
I don't really know, but I AM fairly sure that they were right, and that my life THEN would have been a lot less stressful if I had followed that advice at that time. However, I notice a curious thing-- I DID invest a lot of time, energy, and patience, to get my child to try different things, at the cost of my time and nerves THEN, but NOW my life is really less stressful in this respect, and the pay-off is wonderful b/c the child in question is now eating a wide variety of healthy foods, and enjoying them-- and I am enjoying the fact that i can throw together a stir-fry with anything that strikes my fancy, and it would be happily consumed. While the parents who were going the 'easy way' are still serving their kids PB&J or mac&cheese for dinner most of the days, and complaining that their kids aren't eating anything else.
On the other hand, I really detest the activities along the line of "make Valentine's day cards for every child in class, here is the class list." Or pretty much any "homework project" that is given with the express understanding that it would be a joint parent-child project. HATE it! If I am doing a project with my child, *I* will be the judge of what we should be doing together, I don't need more homework for ME, I am not in school anymore! And gah, signing my child's agenda book every day! WHY????!!!! I find these things time consuming, and pointless, yet I find myself unable to NOT do the things that are expected from me in these matters. So I'll rate all of these things as WAY more stressful than cooking a family meal every day, even though objectively, they don't take as much time as cooking.
Sebs wrote: And time -- lack of -- really is the underlying adn defining theme in a climbing mom's life. Or any parents' for that matter, but just so exacerbated being a climbing mom. Any thoughts out there?
Yes, time crunch is a major part of it. There are relatively few "hobby" activities that take you away from the kids for an extended period of time, and climbing is tough in that respect. When you spend the week barely able to keep up with all the daily routines, and then you want to LEAVE for the weekend, things really pile up fast, and unless you have a supportive partner who is able to keep things going in your absence, leaving becomes pretty much impossible.
It is something that can be solved/ameliorated by:
-- having a supportive partner who CAN keep up;
-- having family nearby, willing to help out;
-- having money to pay for help with things that you don't have time to do, and/or hiring baby-sitters;
-- letting go and deciding that the things you think are needed to be done, aren't really needed, after all, at least not right now.
The discussion of the above short list has taken us 9 pages already...  b/c some things are easier said than done.
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robbovius
Feb 13, 2009, 4:16 AM
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clausti wrote: so, just to check, tav's opinion is less valid than mine, because she's never having kids, and my opinion is less valid than rocky's, because i am only considering it, and rock's is less valid than yours, because she hasn't sqeezed it out yet, and only people WITH kids are allowed to have an opinion that isn't, in your own words, "marginalized"?
Oh please, you 20-somethings and your righteous indignation. calm down. everyone is allowed to have an opinion, just like everyone is allowed to disagree and find fault with any particular opinion presented in discussion.
that, and not whether I've already successfully bred, is what gives me the right, in this instance or any other, to tell you that you're stupid, if I happen to evaluate your agument as stupid, from my point of view.
In reply to: what a fucking crock of shit.
see, everybody has an opinion. that's yours. I evaluate it to be stupid...and thus was completed the great circle of life.
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robbovius
Feb 13, 2009, 5:10 AM
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tavs wrote: Clausti said most of the things I wanted so say, so I'll just add: Robbovius--you know very little about my life except what I've explictly stated here. Since you assert that my life with my husband has been "static," I assume that for you the only life change that actually matters and can impact a couple's life is having kids.
In reply to: Not moving across the country and having one partner spend a very difficult year+ unemployed. Not going through an extremely rough period for many personal reasons that almost broke up the relationship. Not dealing with one partner starting and going through graduate school. Not making the decision to buy a home (hey, maybe that's nothing to you, but my parents didn't own a house until I was 22; it's a big deal to me).
all these life experiences are stressors that defintely test the pair bond, and I absolutely believe that you are confident in your knowledge of how he will behave in any given stressful situation, that involves the two of you...and that condition is the essence of what your pair-bond is about - the two of you.
you can have a dog, but the pair-bond is still centered around the two of you, the dog is on the periphery, no matter how affectionate you may feel towards it, how beloved a pet it may become, you'll never have any vested interest in its development or learning, its rearing, its activities. And, after 12 or so years, it'll die, and , if you find you really like dogs, maybe you'll get another. it'll be another beloved pet, but that's all.
with a child, though, the pair bond is no longer centered on you and he. its about the child, and stays that way for 18+ years, minimum. About the most difficult thing to do, when a child enters your life - simply by letting nature take its course - is accepting that its not about you anymore. in the early years, hardly any of your life is about you anymore.
In reply to: Nope. Nothing else can possibly help a couple understand how to deal with life short of having kids. Well, gee. Glad to hear that if I were going to have kids, all of the things I thought I learned through taking the time to develop and cultivate a long-term relationship would be meaningless. That's quite a comfort.
sarcasm noted. for what its worth, I was with my kids's mom for 23 years before finally divorcing, in 2004 (3 years after I'd convinced her siblings to perform an intervention at a family gathering. I thought it better to save her, if I could, than simply having her dragged off to detox. alas, no good deed goes unpunished) we were together 7 years before having kids.
as you claim, I was SURE i knew who she was, and what her behaviour was about, and how she'd react to etc etc...we talked about what it was going to be like, we went to Lamaze classes, we read the books and we talked to other parents...
*nope. nothing prepares you fully for crazytown. the most abject, helpless n00b in the world is the new parent. by the time you get to your 3rd, you kinda have a clue...*
...No offense, but "almost 8 years of cohabitation" doesn't seem so long to me, or such a sure predictor of behaviour.
In reply to: I want to clarify something--what most interests me about this whole debate and conversation (and despite being repeatedly told that I basically have no right to weigh in on it, I remain interested) are the GENDER issues. What my comments were directed at are the discussions of GENDER ROLES.
point taken, congruent with so many other comments here, including some of mine.
In reply to: But apparently no decisions any couple makes about any issue in their life can give them any basis on which to judge how they are likely to deal with the mutual responsibility of having kids.
oh it can give you a basis. but that basis, no matter how carefully reationalized in your own estimation, will be a guess...and quite possibly wrong.
In reply to: No matter how many times you tell me that I can't have any valid opinion about how my life might be if I did have kids,
no no no, you can certainly have an opinion, but, having lived what you admit you're never going to allow yourself to experience, I judge your opinion to be largely misinformed.
In reply to: you will not change my mind on these facts: I KNOW my partner; I KNOW our relationship; I KNOW how we balance responsibilities and tasks; I KNOW how we talk about important decisions, how we react to changes in our lives, how we deal with adversity, and how we deal with exciting new experiences.
well, then, so, have a kid or two, and let us know how it works out ;-) you wanna deal with "an exciting new experience"? c'mon, don't be a wuss!
;-)
(This post was edited by robbovius on Feb 13, 2009, 5:25 AM)
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robbovius
Feb 13, 2009, 5:36 AM
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clausti wrote: [you know who i'd like to hear from? some dads who don't despise the mother of their children.
you have been. who says I despise my kids' mom? she made some realy bad life choices there for a while, and I don't think moving away from her son was particularly kewl - and I admit to harboring anger over some of it, but, hey, we had kids together...what closer bond is there than blood?
its better for the kids, if she's doin' okay. its better for me, if I let go the grudges and anger. way deep down there, where the deepest secrets lie, there's a part of me that wishes it had all turned out different.
Clausti, rest assued, I remember clearly when it was really really good. but, well, nothin lasts forever, and you really never truly know what the other person's thinkin'.
a toast, for what might have been. I wish her well.
knowhatimeen?
(This post was edited by robbovius on Feb 13, 2009, 5:41 AM)
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clausti
Feb 13, 2009, 1:10 PM
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robbovius wrote: clausti wrote: [you know who i'd like to hear from? some dads who don't despise the mother of their children. you have been. who says I despise my kids' mom? she made some realy bad life choices there for a while, and I don't think moving away from her son was particularly kewl - and I admit to harboring anger over some of it, but, hey, we had kids together...what closer bond is there than blood?
what closer bond is there than blood? tripe, tripe, tripe. you have a blood bond with your kid, not your exwife. what you have with her is whatever you made of it, and it doesn't sound like you're really all that keen on how it turned out. how could your mate failing you and abandoning your kid NOT affect your perception of them, and of gender roles and expectations in marriage?
god, you are so full of shit. i just cannot wrap my brain around it. you go for 8 pages telling people that they can't have an opinion unless they've popped one out or sperminated someone, then your'e all like "OMG you have 20-something indignation calm down everyone is allowed to have an opinion"
bullshit
you go on and on about how pissed you are that the mothers in this thread are describing their own experiences, call people sexist, and then go on and on about how much you did for our kids, good for you. but to say there're a "little bit of anger" over her moving away from yall's son and then to tell me you don't despise her...
quite frankly, after all your mood shifts and anger *just in this thread* you'll forgive me if i don't believe you.
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limeydave
Feb 13, 2009, 4:39 PM
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robbovius wrote: clausti wrote: [you know who i'd like to hear from? some dads who don't despise the mother of their children. you have been. who says I despise my kids' mom? she made some realy bad life choices there for a while, and I don't think moving away from her son was particularly kewl - and I admit to harboring anger over some of it, but, hey, we had kids together...what closer bond is there than blood? its better for the kids, if she's doin' okay. its better for me, if I let go the grudges and anger. way deep down there, where the deepest secrets lie, there's a part of me that wishes it had all turned out different. Clausti, rest assued, I remember clearly when it was really really good. but, well, nothin lasts forever, and you really never truly know what the other person's thinkin'. a toast, for what might have been. I wish her well. knowhatimeen?
And I don't despise mine either.
I have some anger about certain events, and I know she does too, but most of it aint bad at all.
I think Clausti is projecting something here.
Daddy issues?
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wonderwoman
Feb 13, 2009, 7:14 PM
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limeydave wrote: robbovius wrote: clausti wrote: [you know who i'd like to hear from? some dads who don't despise the mother of their children. you have been. who says I despise my kids' mom? she made some realy bad life choices there for a while, and I don't think moving away from her son was particularly kewl - and I admit to harboring anger over some of it, but, hey, we had kids together...what closer bond is there than blood? its better for the kids, if she's doin' okay. its better for me, if I let go the grudges and anger. way deep down there, where the deepest secrets lie, there's a part of me that wishes it had all turned out different. Clausti, rest assued, I remember clearly when it was really really good. but, well, nothin lasts forever, and you really never truly know what the other person's thinkin'. a toast, for what might have been. I wish her well. knowhatimeen? And I don't despise mine either. I have some anger about certain events, and I know she does too, but most of it aint bad at all. I think Clausti is projecting something here. Daddy issues?
It strikes me as odd that you would be defensive about people assuming that you despise your ex when you haven't had a positive thing to say about her so far as I can tell. All of your threads, and even your signature, are referring to the mother of your child(ren?) as fat.
Maybe I'm just projecting my Daddy issues, too, but please let me remind you of the conditions of posting here:
A place for women to share their experiences, ask female-related questions and get empowered in a safe environment. All are free to post, but keep maturity in mind. Highly moderated.
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clausti
Feb 13, 2009, 7:37 PM
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limeydave wrote: robbovius wrote: clausti wrote: [you know who i'd like to hear from? some dads who don't despise the mother of their children. you have been. who says I despise my kids' mom? she made some realy bad life choices there for a while, and I don't think moving away from her son was particularly kewl - and I admit to harboring anger over some of it, but, hey, we had kids together...what closer bond is there than blood? its better for the kids, if she's doin' okay. its better for me, if I let go the grudges and anger. way deep down there, where the deepest secrets lie, there's a part of me that wishes it had all turned out different. Clausti, rest assued, I remember clearly when it was really really good. but, well, nothin lasts forever, and you really never truly know what the other person's thinkin'. a toast, for what might have been. I wish her well. knowhatimeen? And I don't despise mine either. I have some anger about certain events, and I know she does too, but most of it aint bad at all. I think Clausti is projecting something here. Daddy issues?
actually my father loves me very much, thanks. he told me so most recently when i talked to him on the phone tuesday. loves my mother very much, too, and is still with her after almost 35 years. we tease them about flirting too much in front of the kids, but honestly it's pretty sweet.
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limeydave
Feb 13, 2009, 8:11 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: limeydave wrote: robbovius wrote: clausti wrote: [you know who i'd like to hear from? some dads who don't despise the mother of their children. you have been. who says I despise my kids' mom? she made some realy bad life choices there for a while, and I don't think moving away from her son was particularly kewl - and I admit to harboring anger over some of it, but, hey, we had kids together...what closer bond is there than blood? its better for the kids, if she's doin' okay. its better for me, if I let go the grudges and anger. way deep down there, where the deepest secrets lie, there's a part of me that wishes it had all turned out different. Clausti, rest assued, I remember clearly when it was really really good. but, well, nothin lasts forever, and you really never truly know what the other person's thinkin'. a toast, for what might have been. I wish her well. knowhatimeen? And I don't despise mine either. I have some anger about certain events, and I know she does too, but most of it aint bad at all. I think Clausti is projecting something here. Daddy issues? It strikes me as odd that you would be defensive about people assuming that you despise your ex when you haven't had a positive thing to say about her so far as I can tell. All of your threads, and even your signature, are referring to the mother of your child(ren?) as fat. Maybe I'm just projecting my Daddy issues, too, but please let me remind you of the conditions of posting here:
A place for women to share their experiences, ask female-related questions and get empowered in a safe environment. All are free to post, but keep maturity in mind. Highly moderated.
The signature and most of my comments are really tongue in cheek and a comment on divorce in general. For the record my ex isn't fat - she's 5'9" and maybe 125lb. It's a joke.
The bitterness is also at least partly comedic - but I can understand how it would be easy to take them more literally than I intended them.
Fair point about the Ladies room - I thought I had a decent point about peoples choices regardless of sex, but I guess you want this thread to go the way you want it to go and I'll butt out.
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clausti
Feb 13, 2009, 8:19 PM
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limeydave wrote: wonderwoman wrote: limeydave wrote: robbovius wrote: clausti wrote: [you know who i'd like to hear from? some dads who don't despise the mother of their children. you have been. who says I despise my kids' mom? she made some realy bad life choices there for a while, and I don't think moving away from her son was particularly kewl - and I admit to harboring anger over some of it, but, hey, we had kids together...what closer bond is there than blood? its better for the kids, if she's doin' okay. its better for me, if I let go the grudges and anger. way deep down there, where the deepest secrets lie, there's a part of me that wishes it had all turned out different. Clausti, rest assued, I remember clearly when it was really really good. but, well, nothin lasts forever, and you really never truly know what the other person's thinkin'. a toast, for what might have been. I wish her well. knowhatimeen? And I don't despise mine either. I have some anger about certain events, and I know she does too, but most of it aint bad at all. I think Clausti is projecting something here. Daddy issues? It strikes me as odd that you would be defensive about people assuming that you despise your ex when you haven't had a positive thing to say about her so far as I can tell. All of your threads, and even your signature, are referring to the mother of your child(ren?) as fat. Maybe I'm just projecting my Daddy issues, too, but please let me remind you of the conditions of posting here:
A place for women to share their experiences, ask female-related questions and get empowered in a safe environment. All are free to post, but keep maturity in mind. Highly moderated.The signature and most of my comments are really tongue in cheek and a comment on divorce in general. For the record my ex isn't fat - she's 5'9" and maybe 125lb. It's a joke. The bitterness is also at least partly comedic - but I can understand how it would be easy to take them more literally than I intended them. Fair point about the Ladies room - I thought I had a decent point about peoples choices regardless of sex, but I guess you want this thread to go the way you want it to go and I'll butt out.
pretty sure all she meant about quoting the ladies room guidelines is that some of the discussion, including your daddy issues comment, is probably walking on just this side of civil.
(This post was edited by clausti on Feb 13, 2009, 8:53 PM)
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MattSam
Feb 13, 2009, 10:04 PM
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clausti
Feb 14, 2009, 1:28 AM
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MattSam wrote: clausti and matt samet's emails wrote wrote: a bunch of stuff matt samet is mad about me posting. Quickly, I realize I meant the old Dick Williams guidebooks. Email was sent while I wasn't in office, at 9 a.m. on a Sunday, while my brain was foggy. Also, Christina or an administrator - it's never good to see person-to-person correspondence pop up on a web forum, and I kindly ask that you remove it, then I'll do the same with this post. Thanks, Matt
Quite frankly, I am surprised that you object to this being posted. As far as I am concerned, this is formal correspondence, beginning with a "Letter to the Editor." Which, as far as I know, you can print in your magazine, if you like, with this or a different rebuttal, which I have no say about. Since I clicked on your, ya know, "Editorial Department" link. If you want to assume things are private correspondence, maybe that link shouldn't lead to your primary email.
I think it's shady of you to be mad that I quoted you exactly. Would you rather i have posted "oh i said, and then samet said, and then i said, and then he said, and i was like  ." Please, give me a reason to think this is over something other than that you are embarrassed you got called out about the grade in the article.
I'm not editing my post. I am not in any way repentant. And I'm sure you can bully the site admins in to removing my original posts, since "rockclimbing.com" doesn't want the editor of "Climbing Magazine" mad at them. But I'd rather THIS post not get removed, so I did take the emails out of it.
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lvpyne
Feb 14, 2009, 2:29 AM
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clausti wrote: tripe, tripe, tripe.
clausti wrote: god, you are so full of shit. i just cannot wrap my brain around it.
wonderwoman wrote: All are free to post, but keep maturity in mind. Highly moderated.
Interesting juxtaposition.
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MattSam
Feb 14, 2009, 2:32 AM
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clausti
Feb 14, 2009, 2:37 AM
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MattSam wrote: Never said I was mad; I don't know where you got that. I just prefer Climbing correspondence stay off public forums, for privacy reasons. You can definitely do as you choose - I'm indifferent. Just thought I would ask nicely. take care, Matt
If you actually considered it a private matter and wanted to ask nicely, you could have contacted me at the email address of the correspondence. Or you can PM me now. Coming into the open forum and telling me you're going to get the posts removed whether I like it or not doesn't look like asking nicely from where I sit.
(This post was edited by clausti on Feb 14, 2009, 2:52 AM)
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tavs
Feb 14, 2009, 4:17 AM
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Just a few relatively quick responses. Lena_chita: that is indeed how I meant the term norm, as what is the standard of behavior (not norm as in the normatively desirable). And while I absolutely agree with you about individual exceptions being just that (I'm a political scientist who teaches a course on gender and politics, and I'm acutely interested in what is actually going on out there, in the majority of situations), I do also think that if we are going to change the norm, we need to realize the power in individual exceptions. As much as we clearly disagree about many, many things, Robbovius's story is just such an important example.
About my expressed certainty about my partner...of course, he sometimes surprises me with his behavior (and vice versa, I'm sure). But what gives me the comfort I have is that we generally recognize the unexpected when it happens. That is, I can say, "gee, it seemed weird to me that you [did X, said Y, whatever] because you almost always [do A, say B]." I guess what I see are PATTERNS of behavior, trends, tendencies. We are not perfect, we fight and disagree just like any one else, we do things the other doesn't like. I'm not trying to make my life sound like an episode from some 50s family sitcom.
Finally, I too would like to hear more from happily married dads about the ways their lives (and climbing) have changed (or not changed) because of kids. Not because some posts make it seem like the divorcees are bitter and hateful, but because that is to me the most interesting part of the Climbing article and the reactions it spawned. When the parents are together and are both, presumably, caretakers--is this still more of a climbing MOM problem???
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rockprodigy
Feb 15, 2009, 4:46 AM
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Phew! Nine pages in one push...Matt, if you're still around, I think this should be a "Hot Flashes."
I am one of those mythical dads...happily married, very much in love with my wife, my 3 year old and my 5 day-old.
As I've read through all of this, my opinions have wavered back and forth. I read the original article, and scoffed, like many of you. I don't think my opinion has necessarily changed, but I am maybe more aware of how lucky I am. Two lucky things: 1. My kids are (so far-knock on wood) healthy, so we haven't had any of the challenges that some families deal with. 2. I have an AMAZING wife - She is the most giving, selfless person I've ever met.
I climb a lot...probably more than most family men. My climbing hasn't deteriorated since our first child was born. It hasn't necessarily improved that much either, but I attribute that more to my own issues with injuries than because of kids. I'm fairly introspective, and since I was raised catholic, I'm constantly consumed with guilt, so I worry about this a lot. As I said, my wife is selfless, and I am selfish...am I taking advantage of her? Sometimes, definitely.
My wife definitely climbs less than me, but in my defense, I think a lot of it is by choice. We go to the gym as a family. I never go to the gym without at least asking if she wants to go, but sometimes she doesn't want to. At the crag, I always climbed more pitches in a day than she did, and that condition has been exacerbated since the kids. I'm a fairly neurotic, OCD climber type, and feel the need to eek out every last ounce of daylight during a climbing day, and she has never been that way. Certainly, if we didn't have kids she would climb more, but I don't think that she resents her lower day-to-day pitch count.
The biggest change I've noticed since the kids is that we don't trad climb together much anymore. I really miss this, personally, but I think she is fine with it because she generally finds trad/alpine/ice climbing to be more scary. I find partners to climb these mediums with, but I miss doing it with my "soul mate". Once or twice a year we get a baby sitter that enables us to do a route together, but I notice that she isn't the same because she doesn't have the consistency on that stuff that she did before kids.
Some of the people on here seem to only trad climb, which would be more difficult. With kids, we have to do single pitch stuff exclusively. Multipitch is out. That said, I'm surprised at what sounds like some people implying that they can't bring their kids to the crag. What?? I can't think of a better place to bring a child. Granted, there are some safety concerns, which can be mitigated...there are safety concerns riding on a swingset, crossing the street or riding in a car. We first took our son to the crag at 2 weeks, and he's been joining us ever since, virtually every weekend. He doesn't know anything else. He loves camping, hiking, digging in the dirt, capturing bugs, shouting "send it!" to Daddy, or Mommy, and his favorite - pulling the rope after a climb and yelling "rope!" For the first 3 years, we tried to climb in groups of 3+, and it works OK, when you can find it. After the age of 3, he seems smart enough to handle himself and we've been able to climb with just the two of us. Climbing at the Red, you're always in a group, and a cute toddler is a great way to make friends...again, we're lucky that he's well-behaved.
I don't know...we're still "noobs" as parents. Our first is "only" 3.5, and we just recently added a second, and we're still not sure how that will work out. Maybe my days are numbered. However, kids don't have to mean the end of your life.
For those women out there who expect the husband to participate equally, I think that is a fair expectation, but also be aware of yourself. Three things: 1. Don't blame your husband because you jump at every sound the baby makes. Men and Women (it seems to me) have different ideas of when pampering of a child is necessary. 2. You may be surprised to learn that after the birth of your child, you WANT to do more of those things. Before kids, my wife and I had a fairly 50/50 split on house work, but that has definitely changed. She seems to feel a daily need to bake "something" every day, which certainly wasn't the case before kids. She usually does this with our son, and he really loves it, but she does that by choice...I'm not a bad, or selfish father because of that. 3. Men don't have mammary glands. You may have the husband of the millenium, but there will always be things that he just plain can't do.
(This post was edited by rockprodigy on Feb 15, 2009, 7:20 PM)
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j_ung
Feb 15, 2009, 6:22 PM
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This thread has gotten to the point where every detail of every post is being over-evaluated. People are looking for reasons for disagree with each other and more than once it strayed off topic, though mercifully, it's managed to veer back on. Last word: this is a blue forum and the thread is being watched closely. If you want to stray off topic, please post another thread. If you want to disagree, please do it respectfully, which means a little more than just "don't cuss."
Msamet, I'm sorry but clausti's post stands. Many people consider it to be bad form to post emails and PMs on forums, but it's not against any written rules.
If anybody needs clarification, please feel free to PM me.
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camhead
Feb 15, 2009, 11:59 PM
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ok, I'm going to just chime in with some personal observations, and Jay, I'll keep it civil AND to the point!
First off, I do not have kids. I am married to clausti, and we both are very bogged down in school and work issues right now, love to climb, realize that there will always be compromises in life that may put climbing on the backburner; we're dealing with some right now.
We have talked about having kids quite a bit, and the consensus is that it will depend on a lot of things such as where we wind up, what types of jobs we have, how near we are to grandparents, etc. Both of us grew up in cultures in which the attitude was all to often "oh, we'll just leave it up to God," or "there's never a RIGHT time to have kids! Do it now!" We disagree with both of these attitudes emphatically.
As for the division of responsibilities, I agree with Lena; culturally, and perhaps biologically, the majority of child-rearing responsiblities and actions have always fallen to mothers. Again, with our backgrounds, both my wife and I have professional mothers, who nonetheless took several YEARS off of their careers to rear their kids. Times are different now; I'm not sure that we will be able to do that.
In regular household matters, I am definitely the "neat freak" out of the two of us, I do probably 3/4 of the cooking, and until recently was at home writing the dissertation 7 days a week, so I naturally embraced most household duties. I know that, culturally, these are many duties seen as "female," and I have no problem bucking the trend. HOWEVER, child-rearing is NOT the same as cooking dinner every night or keeping the floor swept.
As for climbing specifically, I am not even going to speculate, because I don't have kids. Right now I am frustrated enough with weather and academic pursuits that are keeping me of the rock. I will say that, however, that I REALLY admire how xgretax has approached the whole "children and the outdoors" issue. She came on an eight-day river trip with us when she was six months preggers; she did not ride through the biggest rapid, but stayed on shore and shot a video of me flipping, and I am still very glad that she was not on that boat– though I'm sure she would have been fine. As soon as she and Mike popped out their spawnling, they were taking her on hikes, outside, on the river, out to climbing areas, and I think she is going to wind up all the much better because of it.
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xgretax
Feb 16, 2009, 1:42 AM
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rockprodigy wrote: 3. Men don't have mammary glands. You may have the husband of the millenium, but there will always be things that he just plain can't do.
i type this as my techoweenie bangs on the keyboard, so forgive any errors and lack of coherence.
i think the above point is sometimes used as a cop-out. i'm NOT saying that you, rockprodigy, have used that point in such a context; i'm only speaking from personal experience. yes, it is true that a breastfeeding mother is well, feeding the kid. but my point is that there are other things that she may need help with. in my relationship with my husband, these things, at times, have been overlooked and chalked up to 'you're the breastfeeding mother.' boy does that churn up the ol resentment cogs. but with time, and persistent communication, these things can be cleared up.
camhead...thanks. but i think we have created a monster...she has to have an unique adventure everyday or she gets pissy (like her parents). she climbed up greencanyon spine to the first knob the other day. on her own and she's only 20 months old.
and for the record, i was 7 months. that trip marked the beginning of my third trimester. and i'm still pissed about getting kicked off the boat that DIDN'T flip. hehe.
gotta go, the wee one wants some milk...
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