A woman who is a mother, who I have met(although only at a slideshow she was presenting). The article also features a woman I know, who is alos a mother, and whom I see out climbing with her daughter on occasion.

Their names are in the article, Clausti.....

Susan E.B. Schwartz is a freelance writer, also the author of Hans Kraus' biography.

- what the fuck is with her calling Modern Times 5.10. pretty damn sure the book gives that 5.8

- "1) Climbing and motherhood are pretty incompatible." not climbing and parenthood, just climbing and motherhood. dads can die and it's ok.

from that article she seems like the kind of woman who goes around trumpeting how she's found her whole life's purpose in being a mother, and god forbid the sperm donor take some responsibility for anything- he might fuck it up. and then acts like a martyr when she has two plates of responsibility because she won't share.

Why not ask her, or the editor of the piece? I surely can't answer that question. Both Dick and Swain give it 5.8+.

I dunno... Of all the women I have climbed with:
- one had a grown step-daughter
- one climbed until she got pregnant. At 45, she stopped climbing immediately because she wouldn't take the risk of losing the baby. She's climbed a few times since baby was born, but finds it really tough to coordinate child care, make time for herself, get partners and all that. The issue of having lost her climbing head is up there too, in making it tough to get out.
- The featured mom, Jannette, is the 3rd mom climber I know. She's currently not happy because that job that made it all possible, which she talked about in the article, has unexpectedly ended. She's pretty freaked out about that.

Every single other woman I have ever climbed with has never had kids, and I have climbed with a lot of women.


Susan is not the type as you have painted(life's purpose as a mother/martyr). But I know, when one hasn't met a person in reality it can be easy to ascribe traits to them which may not be accurate. Happens all the time.

...

And - never having had children, I obviously can't speak from experience. But from the moms I do know(climber or not) it is pretty much the usual thing that, when they have a child or children, those kids just DO come first.

And it isn't about martyring themselves. It's more about unconditional love. True, too - I have known a lot of dads(climbers and not) who love their kids just as unconditionally, but.....they do tend to keep their hobbies up, even if at a different level.

Maybe some of the fathers on rc.com, and those who are married to women who also climb(or did climb) have some input.

There's an article in Climbing this month called "8 confessions of a climbing mom", the conclusions of which state:

"1) Climbing and motherhood are pretty much incompatible, and 2) if your life's goal, now and later, is to climb as much as possible, you probably shouldn't become a mom-odds are high you'll be miserable, and so will your children."

Ouch. Harsh.

Now, I'm not a mom so I will readily admit that I don't know what it's like to try to balance climbing and motherhood. I'm really hopeful though that my husband and I will be like Don and Phyl Munday, who had a kid and still managed to do tons of first ascents in B.C., and that other people won't judge me saying that I'm making my kids miserable.

It pisses me off that you would never see an article like this written by a man. "8 confessions of a climbing dad", or "Climbing and fatherhood are incompatible". Why do women allow themselves to get sucked into this stupid guilt game, and go around pointing the "You're a bad mom" finger?

Anyway, any thoughts? Especially from climbing dads and climbing moms...

(and yes I remember a similar discussion about breastfeeding at the crag a long time ago... thought I would start a new thread though related to the article).

This conclusion is pretty appalling. Basically I agree with everything that you said.

Even if you had to climb less for a few years at some age they do get old enough to go climbing/hiking/be outside also.

I would hope that it is not suggesting that mommies should only be mommies as opposed to some how finding the time to also have jobs or keep themselves healthy, etc.

I also do not have kids. If some reason I ever did though, I expect there to be a Dad who would share in childhood tasks.

A woman who is a mother, who I have met(although only at a slideshow she was presenting). The article also features a woman I know, who is alos a mother, and whom I see out climbing with her daughter on occasion.

One thing that just occurred to me is that at least Jannette(featured in the article) climbs trad, for the most part. I'm pretty sure Susan does too, as her Kraus biography has reference points with her climbing at the Gunks.

Perhaps the point of view is unintentionally skewed more toward the multipitch/gear climber? I am not trying to sport bash(I have enjoyed it the few times I've done it.). The fact does remain that sport and gear are two different animals. I don't really read/hear too much about sport climbers considering the reaper as being that third that's always in the party. Much more so for people who climb trad.

In addition to all the subjectively ridiculous internalized sexism that article is frosted with (Moms shouldn't climb, but hey Dads are fine! Because only Moms do the important stuff for kids!), you let her get away with calling Modern Times 5.10. Hey editor, the route is extremely well known, and it's 5.8. Sorry that she had to bump up the grade so that she could call top-roping a 2 pitch route "epic," but you should have caught that.

-christina austin

There's an article in Climbing this month called "8 confessions of a climbing mom", the conclusions of which state:

"1) Climbing and motherhood are pretty much incompatible, and 2) if your life's goal, now and later, is to climb as much as possible, you probably shouldn't become a mom-odds are high you'll be miserable, and so will your children."

Ouch. Harsh.

Now, I'm not a mom so I will readily admit that I don't know what it's like to try to balance climbing and motherhood. I'm really hopeful though that my husband and I will be like Don and Phyl Munday, who had a kid and still managed to do tons of first ascents in B.C., and that other people won't judge me saying that I'm making my kids miserable.

It pisses me off that you would never see an article like this written by a man. "8 confessions of a climbing dad", or "Climbing and fatherhood are incompatible". Why do women allow themselves to get sucked into this stupid guilt game, and go around pointing the "You're a bad mom" finger?

Anyway, any thoughts? Especially from climbing dads and climbing moms...

(and yes I remember a similar discussion about breastfeeding at the crag a long time ago... thought I would start a new thread though related to the article).

Hi Christina,

We were well aware of the old grade of 5.8. A new book pegged it at 5.10, so we went with that after some discussion.

Matt

Hey Matt,

What book?

I had the old Mc Carthy ones at the office, as did Susan at home — Modern Times there is 5.8, you’re right; Susan referenced the new Extreme Angles one: http://extremeangles.com/gunks.htm

We’re a very small editorial staff, but I do my best to fact-check things like that.

Matt

You know, I actually wanted to post right after I read the article. It made me cry-- both the truths and the un-truths in it.

My "take-home" from reading it is that

A) I climb a lot more, and a lot harder, than a lot of climbing moms out there. (Substantiated by real-life comparisons as well as the stats in the article).

B) I am judged by many people because of it.
--I have been told that I shouldn't be climbing, b/c 'what if something happens to you, what will your kids do then"?
--I have been told, many times, that I am irresponsible to "leave my children" twoce a month to go on a weekend climbing trip. I "leave" them with my husband, their FATHER, for God's sake! How many times a guy is told that he is irresponsible to "leave the kids" if he goes off fishing for the weekend?

To add another climbing example, does anyone remember the respective deaths of Alex Lowe and Alison Hargreaves? Both died in the Himalaya in the mid-late 1990s, both had young children. However, there was a pretty harsh backlash against Hargreaves after her death for "leaving" a child without a mother, much more than any criticism of Lowe for doing leaving his kids fatherless..

I would expect that this double standard would be even more pronounced if, say, a female with a 10-year old started free soloing like Michael Reardon did. I guarantee that such a hypothetical mother would be completely shunned by the entire community, she would not get the sponsorships that Reardon did, and if she was to meet Reardon's end, her ENTIRE legacy would be negative.

Are women inherently less likely to take these sorts of risks, even if the kids are not in the picture?

Are they less likely to do it b/c they feel more attached to their children and more "responsible" for them than the fathers do?

Are the less likely to do so b/c they have been raised that way? Or b/c females in general are more atuned (and more dependent) on the opinions of the people around them, and tend to look for 'approval' and 'validation'?

One of the things was that women have multiple language centers within our brains whereas men usually just have one. That, he posited, was why women "seem" to interconnect issues which men are befuddled by.

Are they less likely to do it b/c they feel more attached to their children and more "responsible" for them than the fathers do?

Are the less likely to do so b/c they have been raised that way? Or b/c females in general are more atuned (and more dependent) on the opinions of the people around them, and tend to look for 'approval' and 'validation'?

You're right... I'm not denying that most childrearing responsibilities tend to fall on the woman. The thing that I found so, so disappointing about the article was how the author just accepted this and didn't figure out a way to work around it, and not only that, implicitly criticized those mothers who do climb..

I guess on its deepest level, the article scared me because it's yet another woman telling me "No, you can't have it all", that it's impossible to be a good mom, have a career and have leisure activities. But nobody ever seems to say that to men.

I am not sure why woman still pick up more work when it comes to raising a child. I believe it is a choice a woman makes when she does unfair share of raising children.

may not be able to climb as often, but I will climb. And lately, I climb mostly trad climbs, and I don't think this will make a difference for me. I already climb less than I'd like because I work and because I am married. I have not regretted either choices I made, and I'm sure I won't regret having children.

So, lhwang, I don't care what this lady says. I plan to have it all. Right now, I have a great career, a great marriage, and I climb as often as I can. I am perfectly happy. Hopefully, by next year, I will be able to add being a mom to that list.

This is the new book.

About male vs. female with general care... I think there is some correlation with a woman's thinking process and that they tend to end up taking charge even in these days of ....equality.

.... but especially to those who sacrificed, perhaps his own climbing time, so that his significant other can climb.

An example: schools usually do some sort of a celebration for the child's birthdays. There is one day a month when they celebrate all January birthdays, for example. You get a note from school, saying that the celebration is on such and such day, the folloing kids in the classroom have their birthdays on that month. Parents, please coordinate the treats among yourselves.

Good God, seriously? There's a day a month AT SCHOOL dedicated to birthday parties? How very educational.

I do think parents worry about this sort of thing way too much. My parents showed up for the school Christmas concerts and usually for one performance of any play I happened to be in, but I think they may have made it to two track meets in the eight years I competed and they certainly never chaperoned anything or brought cupcakes to school for my whole class (not that I remember any other parents ever doing anything like that either). And I never had any problem with my parents' level of involvement. If anything I preferred it that way.

Good God, seriously? There's a day a month AT SCHOOL dedicated to birthday parties? How very educational.

I do think parents worry about this sort of thing way too much.

Yeah, in general parents worry about everything too much.

I think the school birthday celebrations are ridiculous, too. Hopefully it will not continue past elementary school. However, while these things are going on, and while they ARE important to my kids, I make an effort to be there. Would they be scarred for life if I didn't make it to a party -- nope, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't. But it is just a little example of everyday choices you have to make as a parent. The little things add up.

Or choice number 5 which is when they say parents coordinate, they mean parents and not moms. I completely expect my husband to share all responsibilities including cupcake bullshit.

People remember things that they find important... concluision?

Great expectation!

Not great, just fair.

Daniel should climb more 5.12's on Wednesdays?

So, although I am just as against any double standard as many of you, I don't think the woman who wrote that article was trying to be sexist or defeatist. Although it doesn't paint a future I personally want, I don't think she was trying to be negative or 'keep us down.'

I think those of us without kids have a hard time understanding how a parent thinks or feels. To some degree, the moms I know (climbers or not) don't make a real effort to get out and do their own thing. Whether this is due to what society has told them they should do or whether it's just what they want for themselves (or partially each), I don't know. I guess I think it's both.

Now, I'm not a mom so I will readily admit that I don't know what it's like to try to balance climbing and motherhood.

I'm really hopeful though that my husband and I will be like Don and Phyl Munday, who had a kid and still managed to do tons of first ascents in B.C., and that other people won't judge me saying that I'm making my kids miserable.

It pisses me off that you would never see an article like this written by a man.

Anyway, any thoughts? Especially from climbing dads and climbing moms...

About male vs. female with general care... I think there is some correlation with a woman's thinking process and that they tend to end up taking charge even in these days of ....equality.

I read a book once...

I had a guy friend and we were discussing this difference(before I had read this book). The guy says "You know, when you ask a guy what he's thinking about something? Imagine a little cartoon thought bubble coming from his head, and it's empty."

What I am getting at is - guys(in general) just don't connect the dots sometimes, when it comes to their kids. They don't realize WHY the errand needs to get done now and that he needs to have (whatever) along for his 2-year old and that he needs to get back home (by whatever time) so the kid can get fed and his nap or else - well, we all know what happens then!

The women connects the dots between risky behavior, all the way down to not being available for her child should she be hurt or injured. All without so much as tying in. Whereas the guy....is more apt to realize he's got trouble handling the child care about....the day he wakes up in the hospital after an accident, or gets home 6 hours past the time he said he would and now mom can't do what she had planned.

I did see it as defeatist. But I didn't think she was painting the future. She was doing a snapshot of things as they are NOW for many women. If people she polled felt that way, you cannot really argue with it, can you?

I did see it as defeatist. But I didn't think she was painting the future. She was doing a snapshot of things as they are NOW for many women. If people she polled felt that way, you cannot really argue with it, can you?

I am not sure who she polled. Why is that climbing moms I know seem to manage just fine? There is you, Lena, and at my gym there is one mom who climbs hard and takes trips (last major one being to Thailand), at least one mom who told me she is stronger now after having a baby (and you should see this woman boulder), and another 2 that bring their brand new babies to the gym that I see regularly.

rob - I am glad you have the experiences you have, and that you shared. Perhaps a little more on being a climbing dad, when your kids were all in the under 16 age range would be helpful.

About the comments you questioned which I made - I know plenty of mothers who have been in partnerships, and that is where I based the things I wrote on. Never once declared myself an expert.....

No insult to dads who care well for their kids. There's no need to suggest anyone is lumping you AND every other dad on this forum in any such category. If you were insulted, that's on you.

There's no need to suggest anyone is lumping you AND every other dad on this forum in any such category. If you were insulted, that's on you.

The husbands come from the same stock, but who is taking time off to come and read a story to a bunch of kindergarteners and help out with the field trip? Not the people with the Y chromosome!

I had a guy friend and we were discussing this difference(before I had read this book). The guy says "You know, when you ask a guy what he's thinking about something? Imagine a little cartoon thought bubble coming from his head, and it's empty."

What I am getting at is - guys(in general) just don't connect the dots sometimes, when it comes to their kids. They don't realize WHY the errand needs to get done now and that he needs to have (whatever) along for his 2-year old and that he needs to get back home (by whatever time) so the kid can get fed and his nap or else - well, we all know what happens then!

Maybe by means of refusing to climb with her spouse any longer, the author inadvertently took on more of the parental responsibilities. That sets her up for the 'motherhood being incompatible with climbing' scenario. It's self-imposed. But as long as she is happy with her life, that is what matters.

Oh for the love of Dinojesus. 3 pages of lumping every dad into the category of a dumbass with no freaking clue as to what his kids need and no responsibility to care for them and blah blah

to be fair, i realize you were talking to happiegrrl, but not everyone in this thread is lumping all men into the "idiots" category. and lena has been talking mostly in specifics about her situation.

some of us have, in fact, been lumping guys into the "perfectly fucking competent to split stuff" category.

Great expectation!

Yes, of course, when the note says "parents coordinate" that means theoretically parents of both genders. However, if you did a poll of the parents in my kids' classroom, or did a poll of parents I work with, and asked them what notes came home from school in the past couple weeks, I can guarantee you that Moms will tell you exactly what those notes said, and describe how they are planning to deal with it, and most Dads would say:"Huh? what note? there is a birthday celebration at school? which project is due? Nobody told me!"


A somewhat comical example from couple of weeks ago.

K. called me on Wednesday, frantic b/c Daniel didn't come home from school. He called the after-care, and Daniel wasn't there, either, so he needed someone (that would be me) to tell him what to do next.

Meanwhile, on the board right above the kitchen table there was a BIG bright-neon-pink sign that said in large black letters: GREENHOUSE CLUB DATES. Yes, that Wednesday was listed right there on that neon-pink sheet.

Did K. know that Daniel was participating in Greenhouse club? Theoretically he should have known.
--When the description of the clubs came home in the fall, he saw it.
--When Daniel signed up for it, there was a discussion which club he wanted to choose, complete with the discussion about the late bus, the time the late bus showed up, etc..
--When the schedule of club meeting dates came home, he saw it, too, theoretically. And then the Schedule went up on a board in a very visible place in the kitchen, so we would all remember it.
--This being a regular event, there have been multiple meetings (always on Wednesdays) before now.
--Moreover, on the very morning of the day he panicked b/c his child was missing, he was right there at the table during breakfast, when I had reminded Daniel that he had a greenhouse club after school, reminded him of the time the late bus left the school, and asked him to check that he still had his home key in his backpack.

Nothing wrong with my husband's brain. he will tell you exactly when he climbed his first 5.12, after how many tries, and what the crux sequence was. He is also very good at trivia games...

People remember things that they find important... concluision?

OH COME ON!!! At least he noticed that the kid was missing!!!

Are all men/fathers hapless losers who don't spend any time taking care of their kids? No.

Do women/mothers still perform the majority of home and childcare responsibilities? Yes. Surveys and research from many social science disciplines consistently show an imbalance. Does this mean that in every household, the women does more of the work? No.

I would also suggest that childless-women do have some experience from which to speak about parental roles: their own childhoods. Of course, times are changing (the imbalance in responsibilities is certainly less pronounced than it used to be). But, at the risk of speaking for others, I'm sure at least some of us grew up in homes where it was our mothers who picked us up from school, made treats for the class, arranged playdates, drove us to and from various activities, cooked meals, cleaned the house, etc. I certainly did, and this was with a father who was by no means a Neaderthal in his attitudes towards females--I was the son he never had, and we constantly bonded over sports (playing and watching). But still--the closest he ever came to "cooking" was mixing up tuna for a sandwich. Oh yeah, and both of my parents worked full-time. Maybe, just maybe, those of us without children of our own have had our images shaped by our childhoods, by watching our friends' families, by TV and movies, and so on.

Some take those experiences and assume that's the way it always is and always will be; some won't stand for it continuing; and some do recognize that it isn't always like that.

Basically, my life with my mom and stepfather was one where neither really gave a shit unless I or my sisters did something to disrupt them. They may have attended about 2 or 3 games / events / etc from the time I entered school until I left the house to live with my dad after 8th grade. I was pulled from the class play in the 5th grade because they didn't want to give me rides, and this was repeated for my karate classes and one year of baseball.

I'll throw in my thoughts on my upbringing in here. My parents were divorced when I was young (2yo, maybe?) and my mother remarried when I was about four.

Basically, my life with my mom and stepfather was one where neither really gave a shit unless I or my sisters did something to disrupt them. They may have attended about 2 or 3 games / events / etc from the time I entered school until I left the house to live with my dad after 8th grade. I was pulled from the class play in the 5th grade because they didn't want to give me rides, and this was repeated for my karate classes and one year of baseball.

I went to live with my dad for the start of high school. He was single, living alone, and working very long hours (he had about a 1.5hr commute each way every day on top). I'm not going to say that he picked me up every day or even came to all my games, because he didn't, but there was definitely something different in how he missed my events. To be clear, he came to about half of my extra-cirricular actitivities. He even helped me make cookies for class once (a rugged construction worker he was - and my mom was stay at home - to be fair, she baked cookies, too). Whenever my Dad did miss events, he always seemed to be trying to make up for it elsewhere. Whether he was always succesful or not is irrelevant - he tried and my mom and stepfather made me feel as if I was a burden on them.

This carried with me for a very long time. I started to paint a clear picture of who was important in my life based on how they treated me. At the top were my father and grandmother (because she was always so warm and loving - I did live with her for several years, too, and she was always there with my grandfather for me - she holds my highest respect and admiration). But the thing that kept coming back to me was how divorced mothers were much more likely to get custody and alimoney from the fathers and not the other way around. My own experience told me that this wasn't necessarily the best decision. Later in life I even made small adjustments to Mass state law pertaining to child support checks to strip the language from saying "Father pays Mother" to say "non-custodial parent pays custodial parent." Do the stats show that most custodial parents are women? Yes, but that doesn't mean it is right.

I guess what I'm saying is that while there are a lot stereotypes about how men do nothing in the child-rearing world, there's also a lot of unspoken material about how some moms don't make the best parents despite everyone thinking they should be. My dad is my hero. My mom, while we've certainly reconciled and moved on, couldn't hold a stick to him. It's not even close.

I'd like to shake your dad's hand. he and I could share some stories. No good deed goes unpunished.

Some of the 'traditional' family roles really piss me off. For instance, when I bring my daughter to the doctor and tell them that I am the 'step-mother' there is a general pause and look of concern. And sometimes they ask (in front of her) 'Well, where is her real mom?'.

Or when Josh finalized his divorce, after Dakotah had been living with him all of her life, the judge asks 'Why is the child not going to live with the mother?'.

Or even on my daily commute to take Dakotah to school on the train, we get these fawning 'Oh, isn't that cute - a mother taking her daughter to school' sort of looks from people. I find it really bizarre.

Obviously, that's the one that gets me. But I have to admit that the part about taking her to school is also weird. I went out on a date with someone once and she noted how hot she thought her neighbor was for how much attention he paid to his daughter (she was four or five years old). So the mother gets "she's doing her job" and the father gets "he's hot."

[Drumming fingers]...shit, I need to get me a kid...

as a total tangent- when did the whole "playdates" thing arise? 'cause me and my sibz did definitely not have them, and I assumed it was a later generational thing, but i'm pretty sure tavs is my age or older.

What I could not relate to what the author's decision not to climb with her husband. For me, Josh is the best climbing partner that I've ever had and I'm not willing to give that up! I don't intend to die climbing, with or without my husband.

We climb together mostly. Sometimes he takes her for the weekend so that I can get out and climb and vice versa. It's fair and balanced.

Maybe by means of refusing to climb with her spouse any longer, the author inadvertently took on more of the parental responsibilities. That sets her up for the 'motherhood being incompatible with climbing' scenario. It's self-imposed. But as long as she is happy with her life, that is what matters.

First, is people don't generally socialize with their neighbors as much, so you don't have that level of comfort letting your kids lose to just roam the neighborhood and find activity. Too much "stranger danger" drilled into everyone, parents feel a need to hover.

Second, since parents aren't as social with neighbors, they too crave social interaction with other adults. But since they don't know their neighbors, they have to schedule it in between gymnastics and homework

as a total tangent- when did the whole "playdates" thing arise? 'cause me and my sibz did definitely not have them, and I assumed it was a later generational thing, but i'm pretty sure tavs is my age or older.

i mean, i had three siblings, and we went to church 2-3 times a week, so maybe playdates are for kids who don't have an extra-school structure in place for social stuff? or is it supposed to be in addition? (my husband and i were actually talking about the social void relative to our own childhoods that no church would mean for hypothetical children).

but yeah, playdates- what it is?

If people she polled felt that way, you cannot really argue with it, can you?

Lena said
some sweeping generalizations going on and i've climbed with Chad, Rob, Josh, Jay, and other dads who have either had to bail, had to cut time short, had to schedule climbing around their kids.

[...And statistically-speaking, no question at all, women take the bigger hit...

...It is simply a snapshot of how things are.

There's an article in Climbing...

"...Climbing and motherhood are pretty much incompatible,... if your life's goal ... is to climb as much as possible, you probably shouldn't become a mom..."

Ouch. Harsh.

Now, I'm not a mom...

It pisses me off that you would never see an article like this written by a man .... Why do women allow themselves to get sucked into this stupid guilt game... ?

Anyway, any thoughts?...

Well, her reasons for not climbing with her spouse "so if something happens the kids would have at least one parent left" seemed more than slightly ridiculous to me. But I do know people who for this reason refuse to fly together. Crazy, if you ask me (they do drive together, after all...), but people feel that way sometimes.

However, my husband and I have also made a decision that resulted in us not climbing together most of the time. In the hindsight-- bad decision. But this is how it unfolded:

Imagine that you didn't have the biological Mom taking D. every other weekend and leaving you and Josh free to climb together, and D. was still young-- and had a sibling, compounding all issues of childcare. This is our situation. We do not have family nearly, the kids are not old enough to be left alone overnight, and we cannot afford to hire a baby-sitter for the whole weekend.

In our situation, going climbing together means going climbing with kids. The closest climbing destination is 5.5 hours away. Or rather, it is 5.5 hous away IF you are driving without young kids. Driving with kids adds at least an hour to that time, under the best circumstances.

We DO do it occasionally-- but it is tiring for the kids. They enjoy camping and hiking, but climbing isn't their thing, so they aren't super-excited about the trip to begin with. Getting back home late at night on Sunday, spending 12-13 hours in the car over the weekend... it is something you could do once in a while, in summer, when there are no school schedules to keep in mind, or maybe when there is a long weekend...

So we came up with a "perfect" solution-- Go climbing together once a month or so, and in the meantime, alternate weekends... Fair and equal. Except when you do it that way, the person who is left behind ends up with a double-whammy of work to do, and you spend very little time with your spouse, and have a lot less "family time", both parents and kids, doing something all together...

Can't see how baby would stop you climbing.

I've had great ideas from others on that, e.g. play pen for child while you boulder, single pitch etc..

Where there's a will, there's a way I say.

It is a very weird thing of modern-day parenthood.

No, we didn't have playdates when we were kids either. Anytime we wanted to play, all we had to do is walk outside and there would be someone there. Or at most, go knock on the neighbor's door and ask if the kid who lived there could come out to play.

In these times, the cities are more spread-out, and people move more often, and they aren't home during the day, they get home late after work, pull into their attached garage, and close the door, so the contact with neighbors is not so great. A lot of times people just don't know each other.

So when a child wants to play, especially if he/she wants to play with a specific person-- let's say a classmate-- the chances are the classmate in question lives across town, and the kids can't just get together at a drop of a hat, b/c someone has to drive them there.

And even if the kids live relatively close, the parents have to arrange the day and time for them to meet, taking into account all the other things on the schedule:"Oh, no, Vivi has soccer on Saturday afternoon, and no, Sunday she has Sunday school until 2, and then she has her piano lesson. How about Saturday morning? oh, your daughter has gymnastics then? oh, let's see... can we do it after her gymnastics, but before Vivi's soccer, for couple hours?"

When the two kids finally meet to play, it is called a playdate... sad, isn't it?

ok, so my hypothesis that we didn't do it cause mom got adult time at church 2-3 times a week and we got social interaction seems to be holding.

(snickers) please, let me know how that works out for ya.


just please don't park your wailing kid at the bottom of the route I"m on. Nothing grates more on another Mom's nerves, than the sound of someone else's baby crying. It sets up this instinctive reaction to help, but its someon'e else's baby, so you can't really intervene, but you want to make it stop... ahhh! nothing makes me feel more helpless!

Congratulations if you are expecting; I haven't been logging on recently and wasn't aware!

Well it's what others do and have done and one suggested it to me but I like the kiddie crib idea better ;)

I can't stand wailers either, that's what a dummy's for anyway
Just kidding.

Thanks for the congrats. Sounds like you did a fine job with yours.. but your climbing suffered right?

Anyway, any thoughts? Especially from climbing dads and climbing moms...

Great expectation!

Yes, of course, when the note says "parents coordinate" that means theoretically parents of both genders. However, if you did a poll of the parents in my kids' classroom, or did a poll of parents I work with, and asked them what notes came home from school in the past couple weeks, I can guarantee you that Moms will tell you exactly what those notes said, and describe how they are planning to deal with it, and most Dads would say:"Huh? what note? there is a birthday celebration at school? which project is due? Nobody told me!"


A somewhat comical example from couple of weeks ago.

K. called me on Wednesday, frantic b/c Daniel didn't come home from school. He called the after-care, and Daniel wasn't there, either, so he needed someone (that would be me) to tell him what to do next.

Meanwhile, on the board right above the kitchen table there was a BIG bright-neon-pink sign that said in large black letters: GREENHOUSE CLUB DATES. Yes, that Wednesday was listed right there on that neon-pink sheet.

Did K. know that Daniel was participating in Greenhouse club? Theoretically he should have known.
--When the description of the clubs came home in the fall, he saw it.
--When Daniel signed up for it, there was a discussion which club he wanted to choose, complete with the discussion about the late bus, the time the late bus showed up, etc..
--When the schedule of club meeting dates came home, he saw it, too, theoretically. And then the Schedule went up on a board in a very visible place in the kitchen, so we would all remember it.
--This being a regular event, there have been multiple meetings (always on Wednesdays) before now.
--Moreover, on the very morning of the day he panicked b/c his child was missing, he was right there at the table during breakfast, when I had reminded Daniel that he had a greenhouse club after school, reminded him of the time the late bus left the school, and asked him to check that he still had his home key in his backpack.

Nothing wrong with my husband's brain. he will tell you exactly when he climbed his first 5.12, after how many tries, and what the crux sequence was. He is also very good at trivia games...

People remember things that they find important... concluision?

we just didn't do the activity kaleidoscope, and my mom didn't rip chunks out of her workday to drive us around. and so it's hard for me to imagine how i'll deal with it with my own hypothetical kids, because we didn't do it when i was a kid.

Daniel should climb more 5.12's on Wednesdays?