I'm sorry if you couldn't see the metaphor......

1. a girls night out is a 3-6 hour affair, not a 48-60 hour weekend.

2. i'm sorry that you, like many of the guys in this thread, are apparently unable to take specifically hypothetical situations in a general, rather than personal way. your n=1 counterexamples kind of miss the point of discussing the power balance in a hypothetical situation. I'm trying to get you to see where some women would be coming from, and all you have to respond with is "well that's not how it is for me." not. thepoint.

And finally, there is a group of 3 women who say that they won't allow this sort of discrimination to happen to them, they and their partners are beyond it, they have the solutions (to the problem they are yet to encounter personally), they won't have to sacrifice much of anything when they have kids, anyway, and anyone who complains has dug her own hole and is a bad example to all the other young women out there, but is NOT at all representative of what most women go through in some way.

Hmmm, well she's usually hung over the next day, so that becomes more of a 36 hour deally in my n=1 sampling pool.

And yes, of course we're going to take it personal.

If you take enough n=1 sampling pools it tends to add up.

How accurate is your sampling pool though in the modern days? How many men under 30 would really tell their wives that they wouldn't look after the kid so they could go climbing for the weekend? I am sure these types of people exist, but how frequent are they in our generation? Are you sure your sampling data isn't n=1, where 1=June Cleaver?

But I also heard from women who have supportive husbands and climb. Hell, we just recently heard from a woman who climbs 12's even though she started climbing when her baby was 6 months old. Why discount her experience?

Automatically discount a perspective because it comes from a dad? May be what they are saying is true, and they have a fair relationship. It seems that every time an example of relationship that is fair is mentioned, it is dismissed because this is not what a 'majority of women' experience.

well that's unfortunate, since *i wasn't talking about you personally*.


then, it would be n!=1, wouldn't it? and, again, we're not talking about "enough" single samples, we're talking about how your single experience isn't a counterexample to disprove all scenarios. your experience is relevant to YOU and to your partner, but not everyone's experience is like yours.


my sample was n=0, since it was hypothetical.

and I'm 23, btw. i'm not a 50's mom, and i didn't grow up in the 60's. I had to google June Cleaver.

Chances are you'll find a nice climber guy someday, you'll have wonderful kids, and every other weekend you'll send the wee ones to spend the weekend at grandma and grandpa's so you can climb and everyone will live happily ever after.

did you miss the part where she said her oldest was 13 when she started, too? hello, built-in babysitter. it's not that her experience doesn't matter to anyone, it's just that her experience is not that of someone who attempted to return to climbing or begin climbing with an infant or a toddler and no one to help watch the kids but the primary partner/husband.


again, it's not that it's discounted- their situations are their situations and good for them and their partners. but some of the dads who have offered seem to think that because their personal situation is one way, then all of the women who say it's not fair have only themselves to blame and that all dads are equally giving. all dads are not equally giving. some are, but many aren't.

no single scenario is "inevitable," is the point. it's not inevitable that the dad will be a jerk or that the woman will take the lion's share. it's not inevitable, either, that the dad will be understanding and giving and equitable. and no matter how hard you try, one person can not by themselves fix a broken relationship. both people have to be trying. and both people are not always trying. sometimes yes, and sometimes no, but no single situation is reflective of all.

I'm already married to a nice climber, but thanks for the well-wishes.

Well that's the thing though. I think what clee, myself, and many of the guys here are saying is that this stone age-man senario is a fairly rare event in today's world.

Well that's the thing though. I think what clee, myself, and many of the guys here are saying is that this stone age-man senario is a fairly rare event in today's world.

And do you think your nice climber would ever keep you at home every weekend so he could go climbing instead of doing his fair share?

I'm a woman married to an enlightened man. I know, I know, just wait until I have a baby....

one, lets start with how you assume that my aspirations were to find a nice climber to marry and have kids.

two, me and my nice climbers aren't even sure that we'll have kids, so we'll see.

three, no, I don't think that. but again, that's one expectation, contingent upon one experience. it doesn't mean it won't happen to anyone.

let's say i'm me, 10 years from now, and I have just finished weaning my 18 month old child.

3) You seam to be way too eager to vilify men despite all evidence to the contrary.

I am sure that there are people who still treat women like they're some sort of man servants, but they are the minority, and obviously you're not married to one, so what does it matter???

1) It sounded like you had at least some interest in having children. And if you're going to have kids, why wouldn't you want to have them with a nice climber?

Interesting. I totally don't see that on this thread, well, may be because I am one of those 'group of 3 women.' I see that there are definately some women who feel that they do more of child rearing than their husband and either climb or not.

But I also heard from women who have supportive husbands and climb. Hell, we just recently heard from a woman who climbs 12's even though she started climbing when her baby was 6 months old. Why discount her experience?

What about lhwang's parents? ."

I also heard from at least one dad who did way more than the mom. Automatically discount a perspective because it comes from a dad? May be what they are saying is true, and they have a fair relationship.

It seems that every time an example of relationship that is fair is mentioned, it is dismissed because this is not what a 'majority of women' experience. May be you are right, and this happens often. I'm sure it's more comfortable to think this is inevitable, but this kind of thinking only perpetuates what you perceive is unfair. I'm not sure why more women don't say to future moms, "Good for you. I hope your story is different than mine."

please, with an utter lack of sarcasm, quote the places where i have vilified men as a whole.


out of curiosity, where did you grow up?

1) It sounded like you had at least some interest in having children. And if you're going to have kids, why wouldn't you want to have them with a nice climber?

oh, and your original question was "nice climber guy". this is a bit nitpicky, but maybe i wanted a nice climber girl? you didn't ask.

But did you also miss the fact that she had an older child who was old enough to baby-sit the younger ones, AND she lives 10 minutes away from a great outdoor climbing destinastion?

Can you compare a 10-minute trip in the car with kids to a 6 hour trip? An overnight camping trip with kids to a day trip where you DON'T have to pack all the parafernalia and you get to go home to your own shower and bed?

1) your continuous statements that just because every specific case you've seen here is to the contrary, you seam to insist that this problem is endemic.

2) I grew up in ultra-liberal middle class suburbia NJ where the unitarian churches and reform temples out number the hardliner ones.

get off your high horse. You had men in all of your hypotheticals that you were placing yourself in so it is not a terrible stretch to think that you were a heterosexual female. Had you used an anon 3rd party woman in your hypothetical, I'd be much more likely to guess that you were a lesbian. They're called contexual clues. You don't have to go out and say Dumbledore is Gay to know that he is.