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granite_grrl
Feb 25, 2009, 7:54 PM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: Well I guess we just grew up in different worlds. Mine a world where women were equals with men, homosexuals were accepted, and churches didn't run your life and you......the opposite.
This utopian world doesn't even exist today, so I don't know where you were able to dig it up.
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clausti
Feb 25, 2009, 7:58 PM
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GG, do you think i'm getting trolled?
(This post was edited by clausti on Feb 25, 2009, 7:59 PM)
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granite_grrl
Feb 25, 2009, 8:33 PM
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clausti wrote: GG, do you think i'm getting trolled?
I think your original example was pretty good actually. People don't like to change and have a hard time taking on new and different responsibilities at home. I mean, Nathan has gone back to work now after 3 years without steady employment, and it would seem that I have completely forgotten how to cook.
Quite embarrassing actually.
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clee03m
Feb 25, 2009, 9:49 PM
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Wow, I feel like we are going in circles. Does it matter that in WA in the short amount of time I spent at my new gym, I found 2 brand new moms who climb regularly at the gym with babys’ fathers, another woman who boulders v5's who is talking about climbing with me outdoors as soon as weather gets better, and another girl who has a child and took a climbing trip to Thailand? Does it matter that I don't know any of the people you listed well enough to know if they feel that their climbing is affected because of their gender?
Gender affecting my climbing is just not my reality. It's sad that it is so hard for many people to believe. I married a feminist. I am currently the sole bread winner and will probably always have the financial power in the marriage. I have financial luxury to be able to afford help. I live in WA where I can get to climbing areas within an hour. And if I cut back on climbing because of kids, it certainly won't be because of my gender. I'm not sure what we are arguing about anymore, and seem that we are not going to change each other's minds.
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desertwanderer81
Feb 25, 2009, 10:30 PM
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Quiet down troll! You'll be a down trodden woman and be indignant about it!
Seriously though, your story made me smile, very cool.
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clee03m
Feb 25, 2009, 11:48 PM
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Actually, my reply was to Lena. There is no need to dismiss experiences of women who face sexism in their marriage. It happens. I never said that it didn't happen, so don't group my response with yours. My point is that it shouldn't happen, and having an attitude that somehow this is inevitable is not going to help anything or anyone.
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xgretax
Feb 26, 2009, 12:09 AM
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clee03m wrote: Wow, I feel like we are going in circles. Does it matter that in WA in the short amount of time I spent at my new gym, I found 2 brand new moms who climb regularly at the gym with babys’ fathers, another woman who boulders v5's who is talking about climbing with me outdoors as soon as weather gets better, and another girl who has a child and took a climbing trip to Thailand? Does it matter that I don't know any of the people you listed well enough to know if they feel that their climbing is affected because of their gender? Gender affecting my climbing is just not my reality. It's sad that it is so hard for many people to believe. I married a feminist. I am currently the sole bread winner and will probably always have the financial power in the marriage. I have financial luxury to be able to afford help. I live in WA where I can get to climbing areas within an hour. And if I cut back on climbing because of kids, it certainly won't be because of my gender. I'm not sure what we are arguing about anymore, and seem that we are not going to change each other's minds.
Well said. What effects my the climbing the most is not my genitalia, but my current life situations (field intensive employment; grad school; mother of a young, spirited child; health problems; toddler's effect on marriage; etc).
Having a vagina certainly doesn't hinder her climbing (very inspiring if you ask me):
http://web.8a.nu/user/Profile.aspx?UserId=15964
http://coletteloc.com/
http://www.joekindkid.com/
http://www.climbing.com/community/perspective/jchunter/
Like sebs said, its about having a system (a very tenuous one at best) that allows you to do what you need to do. The crux is this: things, needs, everything is always in a constant state of flux. For me, I may never climb as strong as JC, but with time, I'll get back to where I was and hopefully improve a bit.
(This post was edited by xgretax on Feb 26, 2009, 12:22 AM)
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clausti
Feb 26, 2009, 1:01 AM
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xgretax wrote: Having a vagina certainly doesn't hinder her climbing (very inspiring if you ask me): http://web.8a.nu/user/Profile.aspx?UserId=15964 http://coletteloc.com/ http://www.joekindkid.com/ http://www.climbing.com/community/perspective/jchunter/
huh. and here i always thought joe kinder had a penis.
and i don't think that the questions or discussion was ever about anyone's genetalia hindering their climbing.
but the 'ALL women who feel their setup is unjust have only themselves to blame' really set me off.
(This post was edited by clausti on Feb 26, 2009, 1:02 AM)
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desertwanderer81
Feb 26, 2009, 1:14 AM
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clee03m wrote: Actually, my reply was to Lena. There is no need to dismiss experiences of women who face sexism in their marriage. It happens. I never said that it didn't happen, so don't group my response with yours. My point is that it shouldn't happen, and having an attitude that somehow this is inevitable is not going to help anything or anyone.
I was never once saying that it doesn't happen. In fact I was saying that I am sure it happens from time to time.
My whole point was your point I suppose.
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desertwanderer81
Feb 26, 2009, 1:18 AM
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The not being allowed to climb deally is only one small symptom of a much larger problem for that specific person. If you allow yourself to be a pushover, or specifically find someone who has those kinds of views, then yeah, it's your fault.
Take some responsibility for your life and the situations you're in.
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clausti
Feb 26, 2009, 1:51 AM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: The not being allowed to climb deally is only one small symptom of a much larger problem for that specific person. If you allow yourself to be a pushover, or specifically find someone who has those kinds of views, then yeah, it's your fault. Take some responsibility for your life and the situations you're in.
you know, at this point, i'm not really sure what you're even referring to. let me be very clear- MY life is fine.
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lhwang
Feb 26, 2009, 4:54 AM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: Maybe it's because I'm younger and in my 20's and grew up in a liberal state that I see a different generation's views? Or maybe I'm just blind to the sexist devide that exists. However as I said before, both partner's lifestyle are changed with the introduction of a wee one. I don't think I've seen any women here who have said their husbands go out climbing every weekend while they're stuck nursing the kid at home.
I think you hit the nail on the head yourself. Read the Invisible Knapsack.
http://mmcisaac.faculty.asu.edu/emc598ge/Unpacking.html
One of the concepts is that men are taught not to recognize male privilege.
Clausti and clee03m said it better than I could. I don't object to the fact that for some women, climbing and motherhood are incompatible. I object to who sebs made it sound like that incompatibility is inevitable, and worse than that, if you don't recognize that climbing and motherhood are incompatible, you will make your kids miserable (again with the "bad mom" finger pointing).
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rockie
Feb 26, 2009, 6:20 AM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: I would not say this forum is an accurate profile of either men or the climbing community :p
Well this is true, same as any forum. I actually found women worse in the forces, for most join up for the men (not this woman I might add) and the men were not stupid nor blind to not see it, and as a result never went near those women, but those women used to give me a hard nasty time and make out I had loads of boyfriends in a not so nice way.. well yes I did have boy (friends) not lovers as they would only see it, and only as they joined up for that but did not get that, this is why they could only think and relate to it in their tunnel visioned way (as I saw it). The real reason I had so many male friends was 1. the reason you brought up, less biatchy there at least and I chose not to be around them due to that.
2. I was competitive in sports and not many of the women there could keep up, but the men tended to be more into my sports and vice-versa and I joined 1-2 RAF runners for long distance runs (which I don't do if I go alone as it is too boring), but they liked that I could keep up with them.
In nursing too, as it is mostly women, it shocked me at how biatchy it was at work, especially in nursing, you'd think the caring profession would not be that way, but wrong. Luckily I got a better impression of nursing in the forces, the nurses were nice and Officers were anyway, but what a difference when I left! Had I got my first impression outside the forces I'd likely not have gone into nursing having then gained a bad impression.
It's not all been bad though, I also worked with some equally lovely colleagues, but you always tend to get at least one trouble maker at least who sadly does tend to be a female I have noticed.
(This post was edited by rockie on Feb 26, 2009, 7:13 AM)
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rockie
Feb 26, 2009, 6:25 AM
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clee03m wrote: rockie wrote: Sadly, this tends to be true, and it is why I always preferred working with Men rather than with women. I had a much nicer and better time working with them, women do tend to cause more trouble in comparison. Small wonder why most my friends are male. I don't know. I wouldn't write women off. Most of my closest friends are girls, and there are no bitchiness or cruelty in our friendships. We are so close that I feel like they are closer than just friends--like family. I wouldn't be climbing if one of those friends didn't introduce me to climbing. Sure, there are some bitchy ones out there, but for the most part, I think girls rock!  Besides, I really like not having to deal with weird sexual tension or the crazy girlfriend/spouse factor.
Heh! friends are different, if like me you choose your friends carefully then you friends will be only decent. I treasure all my female friends too, like yours they are tops. But women on the whole to work with.. hmmm, sorry I can't help but agree with desert... view on that view of women being not so nice to one another, I've seen more trouble caused at work with women than men I can say that much. I remember one other in the forces who got two guys into trouble and split up a marriage telling the police, after she invited them back to hers after social one night, that she got raped. She got posted and the married guys marriage broke up. Everyone was pretty disgusted as that girl was not exactly mentally balanced, and sure what was a married guy doing in the singly's room anyway after a social, but to imply she'd been raped, which again could have happened, but many of us doubted it simply as we already knew what she could be like.. trouble maker basically, anyway she got posted away while it all got investigated, I've no idea what happened after that.
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rockie
Feb 26, 2009, 6:27 AM
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wonderwoman wrote: clee03m wrote: rockie wrote: Sadly, this ... Small wonder why most my friends are male. ..rock! Besides, I really like not having to deal with weird sexual tension or the crazy girlfriend/spouse factor. I happen to think I'm a really nice person, you beeotches! 
Heh! Thanks for making me laugh just then, that last part made me chuckle.. 
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rockie
Feb 26, 2009, 6:33 AM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: clausti wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: I don't think I've seen any women here who have said their husbands go out climbing every weekend while they're stuck nursing the kid at home. for the record, i know several guys who still go climbing (not as much but they still get to go outside a couple times a month) whereas their wives, who climbed before, NEVER get to go out. lena_chita was the first woman i'd ever met who had kids and still climbed even close to what her husband did. and my problem with the article was not that i don't think the author's situation ever happens and not that i think she's a "weak" woman or something for being in that situation, but that i was angry that it was presented as *inevitable* and the way things *SHALL BE* when you have kids. i object to being told how my life is gonna go by someone who doesn't know me and is making sweeping assumptions. And it was to me, personally. It was to me and to every female climber out there who is thinking about having kids. To me, and I think to some other people, acceptance of the inevitability of inequality is tantamount to complicity in inequality. And to be told "oh you will too" just blows my fuse. I can see how you, or anyone, have a problem with the "thou shalt not climb after childbirth" deally. I do have one question though. Do your friends who have children envious of their husbands who are climbing more or are they climbing as much as they want? If the answer is the first, then they have no one to blame but themselves. I have yet to be in a relationship when the woman has not ultimately gotten her way, in just about everything ;) I know the article gives reasons why they can't climb as much but I just don't buy into it. This is the 21st century afterall....
Must be due to a weak man then..
Where I originate from at least all the men I've known including my own boyfriends never let many women get their way, and would leave them if they didn't get their way.. even a friends husband of mine who could not handle his wife's progress at work and wanting to go for her commission. He said me or your job?
She chose her job, and he left her. She got her commission and met a rather handsome man in the same job too, and then her ex husband wanted her back and guess what?
He got the answer he deserved that's what
(This post was edited by rockie on Feb 26, 2009, 7:15 AM)
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rockie
Feb 26, 2009, 6:37 AM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: clausti wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: I do have one question though. Do your friends who have children envious of their husbands who are climbing more or are they climbing as much as they want? If the answer is the first, then they have no one to blame but themselves. I have yet to be in a relationship when the woman has not ultimately gotten her way, in just about everything ;) well, if you weren't getting your way, then you have no one to blame but yourself, now, do you? They usually make better choices than me anyhow ;) Although, the senario always seams to go something like this: her: You pick where to go for dinner. me: Indian? her: No. me: Itallian? her: No. me: Chinese? her: No. me: Brew pub? her: No. me: Thai? her: OK.
Fook me if that fussy just get another woman!
Heh! had to laugh at Clausti's statement above yours, too true..
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rockie
Feb 26, 2009, 6:40 AM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: I'd say you have a pretty shitty husband then. Maybe you had found a neanderthal instead of a human being? I am sorry that you hypothetically chose to marry a pig instead of a man but in all of the relationships I've been in my partner and I would bend over backwards for eachother and in the relationships of my friends with kids, they've stayed in for the weekend with the kids so the wife could have her "party night out with the girls" etc. A better solution though would be to find a trusted friend or a baby sitter and maybe leave for the weekend with your hypothetical husband and climb together!
Ahem! Excuse me but.. You got any brothers?? 
(This post was edited by rockie on Feb 26, 2009, 6:40 AM)
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rockie
Feb 26, 2009, 6:59 AM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: clausti wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: 3) You seam to be way too eager to vilify men despite all evidence to the contrary. please, with an utter lack of sarcasm, quote the places where i have vilified men as a whole. In reply to: I am sure that there are people who still treat women like they're some sort of man servants, but they are the minority, and obviously you're not married to one, so what does it matter??? out of curiosity, where did you grow up? 1) your continuous statements that just because every specific case you've seen here is to the contrary, you seam to insist that this problem is endemic. 2) I grew up in ultra-liberal middle class suburbia NJ where the unitarian churches and reform temples out number the hardliner ones.
I do know for a fact that first part is true, there are some places where men treat women like man slaves.
We had a neighbour in the UK who clearly couldn't find a girlfriend (to put up with him) I say that, as he went to the far east to marry a girl there and bring her back to the UK, well most guys that did that did so as they liked their traditional ways of cooking, cleaning, (servant around the house for the male) basically, and it was obvious to quite a lot of us what he was up to..
So I do not disbelieve for a minute that this still happens, and what about the underpaid live- in fillipino child minders? They too are treated as slaves in a way, given a petty wage, don't really get a life of their own, in exchange for free bed and board they have to take care of the kids and at times housework too.
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xgretax
Feb 26, 2009, 7:31 AM
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clausti wrote: xgretax wrote: Having a vagina certainly doesn't hinder her climbing (very inspiring if you ask me): http://web.8a.nu/user/Profile.aspx?UserId=15964 http://coletteloc.com/ http://www.joekindkid.com/ http://www.climbing.com/community/perspective/jchunter/ huh. and here i always thought joe kinder had a penis. and i don't think that the questions or discussion was ever about anyone's genetalia hindering their climbing. but the 'ALL women who feel their setup is unjust have only themselves to blame' really set me off.
uhhh, not about joe kinder--...rather his blog reporting that JC Hunter, mom, nurse climbed Breaking the Law. The 8a link is her profile, the collette link is another blog reporting her send and the climbing.com link is about climbing hard, working, and being a mom and wife. Maybe you should follow the links? Others as well? Then my post will make more sense.
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xgretax
Feb 26, 2009, 7:35 AM
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clee03m wrote: Wow, I feel like we are going in circles. Does it matter that in WA in the short amount of time I spent at my new gym, I found 2 brand new moms who climb regularly at the gym with babys’ fathers, another woman who boulders v5's who is talking about climbing with me outdoors as soon as weather gets better, and another girl who has a child and took a climbing trip to Thailand? Does it matter that I don't know any of the people you listed well enough to know if they feel that their climbing is affected because of their gender? Gender affecting my climbing is just not my reality. It's sad that it is so hard for many people to believe. I married a feminist. I am currently the sole bread winner and will probably always have the financial power in the marriage. I have financial luxury to be able to afford help. I live in WA where I can get to climbing areas within an hour. And if I cut back on climbing because of kids, it certainly won't be because of my gender. I'm not sure what we are arguing about anymore, and seem that we are not going to change each other's minds.
and clausti, here is the post i was replying to. the issue of 'gender' was clearly stated.
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clausti
Feb 26, 2009, 2:44 PM
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xgretax wrote: clausti wrote: xgretax wrote: Having a vagina certainly doesn't hinder her climbing (very inspiring if you ask me): http://web.8a.nu/user/Profile.aspx?UserId=15964 http://coletteloc.com/ http://www.joekindkid.com/ http://www.climbing.com/community/perspective/jchunter/ huh. and here i always thought joe kinder had a penis. and i don't think that the questions or discussion was ever about anyone's genetalia hindering their climbing. but the 'ALL women who feel their setup is unjust have only themselves to blame' really set me off. uhhh, not about joe kinder--...rather his blog reporting that JC Hunter, mom, nurse climbed Breaking the Law. The 8a link is her profile, the collette link is another blog reporting her send and the climbing.com link is about climbing hard, working, and being a mom and wife. Maybe you should follow the links? Others as well? Then my post will make more sense.
i did, actually, go to your links- she is fucking impressive.
though, as i'm sure you already know, as soon as joe kinder posts something else on his blog, which is frequent, the JC profile won't be at the top and it will just go to his blog, since it's not a direct link.
i need to start using more smiley faces in my posts or something. obviously you weren't talking about joe kinder.
...
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clausti
Feb 26, 2009, 2:48 PM
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xgretax wrote: clee03m wrote: Wow, I feel like we are going in circles. Does it matter that in WA in the short amount of time I spent at my new gym, I found 2 brand new moms who climb regularly at the gym with babys’ fathers, another woman who boulders v5's who is talking about climbing with me outdoors as soon as weather gets better, and another girl who has a child and took a climbing trip to Thailand? Does it matter that I don't know any of the people you listed well enough to know if they feel that their climbing is affected because of their gender? Gender affecting my climbing is just not my reality. It's sad that it is so hard for many people to believe. I married a feminist. I am currently the sole bread winner and will probably always have the financial power in the marriage. I have financial luxury to be able to afford help. I live in WA where I can get to climbing areas within an hour. And if I cut back on climbing because of kids, it certainly won't be because of my gender. I'm not sure what we are arguing about anymore, and seem that we are not going to change each other's minds. and clausti, here is the post i was replying to. the issue of 'gender' was clearly stated.
i knew which single post had the word "gender" in it before yours. but she's clearly not talking about her chromosomal status or her lady bits exerting direct influence. it seemed obvious to me that she was talking about gender POLITICS, and you rebutted by saying your vagina never hindered you. And maybe I missed your joke, too...... but it seemed like you were launching a rebuttal to something that wasn't really said.
(This post was edited by clausti on Feb 26, 2009, 2:53 PM)
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lena_chita
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Feb 26, 2009, 3:27 PM
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clee03m wrote: Wow, I feel like we are going in circles. Does it matter that in WA in the short amount of time I spent at my new gym, I found 2 brand new moms who climb regularly at the gym with babys’ fathers, another woman who boulders v5's who is talking about climbing with me outdoors as soon as weather gets better, and another girl who has a child and took a climbing trip to Thailand? Does it matter that I don't know any of the people you listed well enough to know if they feel that their climbing is affected because of their gender? Gender affecting my climbing is just not my reality. It's sad that it is so hard for many people to believe. I married a feminist. I am currently the sole bread winner and will probably always have the financial power in the marriage. I have financial luxury to be able to afford help. I live in WA where I can get to climbing areas within an hour. And if I cut back on climbing because of kids, it certainly won't be because of my gender. I'm not sure what we are arguing about anymore, and seem that we are not going to change each other's minds.
Yes, we are rehashing the same thing over and over, aren't we?
I think there are several different issues that got sort of glummed together in this thread.
In my mind, it is three separate discussion points.
1. Will you inevitably have to make sacrifices in your climbing when you have kids?
-Males answered YES
-Females answered YES.
No gender difference here.
But people who were already parents tended to say that the adjustments/sacrifices are pretty significant in size, while people who are yet to become parents said that they don't except these adjustments to be very sizeable. Since you fall into the second category, all that I can say to you is good luck, and I would like to hear at some point later how the expectations fit with the reality, whether they match or not.
2. Do females end up making bigger changes than males after they become parents? Do mothers have harder time combining climbing and motherhood that fathers?
(Note, this is not a do you HAVE to-- this is a question of does it HAPPEN)
Males answered either:
a) No, both men and women make equal sacrifices, it's not a sacrifice anyway, b/c you want to spend time with kids, stop whining.
b) Maybe yes, but if so, women make bigger consessions because they WANT to, not because anyone is forcing them to, so stop whining anyway.
Females answered either:
a) Yes, mothers face more pressure to give up activities like climbing, more pressure to be "good mothers", and more pressure to spend more time with their kids. Mothers feel more responsible about their kids, more cognisant of the danger of climbing, etc. etc., so climbing and mother hood are very hard to combine. ( this is the position that Seb, the author of the article took)
b) yes, women face more pressures as Seb describes, and yes, more women than men IN GENERAL (statistically speaking) end up sacrificing climbing for the kids, for various reasons. But it doesn't have to be so, even though climbing and motherhood ARE hard to combine. But IF climbing is important to the woman, a satisfactory solution is possible with creative scheduling, enlisting the help of other climbing Moms, supportive husband, extended family, etc. etc. (this is the position that cliffmama, clausti, granite_grrl, myself, and quite a few others would agree with, I think)
c) no way, it will not happen to me b/c I won't allow it, it is going to be easy not to let that happen, it's other women's fault if they allow it to happen, and I don't even think that it is such a widespead issue to begin with in modern days (that's your position).
3. Outside climbing, in general, do females end up with more parenting responsiilities, do more chores, etc. once the children enter the picture
Males answered either:
a) No, both men and women do chores equally in out enlightened times, regardless of whether they are parents or not, stop whining.
b) Maybe yes, but if so, women end up doing more because they WANT to, because they are concerned with stupid things like cupcakes and birthday parties for some reason, not because anyone is forcing them to, so stop whining anyway.
Females answered:
a) Yes, absolutely true for everyone, for various reasons to numerous to name.
b) Yes in general, but there is a trend for improvement, and a lot depends on individual couples. Striving for balance is hard, but it is possible.
c) no way, it will not happen to me b/c I won't allow it, it is easy to not let it happen, it's other women's fault if they allow it to happen, and I don't even think that it is such a widespead issue to begin with in modern days.
There is a spectrum of opinions in the community, obviously. You and Seb are on the opposite sides of that spectrum. I am in the middle. I can see both sides.
I can also, frankly, look at you and see myself -- about 12 years ago. That is why I think your expectations for the future climbing post-kids are not quite realistic. But I may well be wrong about it. You will be able to keep climbing, of course, I don't doubt that for a second. How much, and how easy you would find the arrangements, is not so clear.
Gender has nothing to do with it-- for YOU. Because your decisions would not be based on your gender.
But gender has everything to do with the kind of pressures you WILL have to face -- from people around you.
All I am saying is that you will be facing a harder time than a male in this situation because of your gender -- NOT that you would be making YOUR decision based on gender.
Your husband may be supportive, your parents may even be supportive, but you would hear things from other women. From other parents. From random strangers. Things that a guy in your situation would never have to hear. Things that would make you feel bad, even though you are convinced that you are making the right choice. (surely you understand this, given the "ego" thread)
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lhwang
Feb 26, 2009, 4:02 PM
Post #325 of 438
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Registered: Aug 4, 2005
Posts: 582
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Whoo... good summary post, Lena_chita!
I guess I'm more at clee03m's end of the spectrum. But actually, I do think that the changes that occur when I have a kid will be sizeable. And I don't think it's going to be easy when I have a kid either. And I don't think what you're describing is uncommon. It's just that I don't accept a blanket statement like "climbing and motherhood are incompatible". With the side note of "and if you climb as much as you want, you'll make your kids miserable". ergo, bad mom.
It's kind of interesting how this thread is essentially a feminist discussion, and you always see the same arguments in these threads (BTW not directed specifically at you Lena_chita, just for clarity):
1) SRSLY, men have it just as bad.
2) wow, you manhater, you
3) you're such a bad mom (or will be such a bad mom) for having those thoughts
and because it's rc.com, the token
4) what do you know, you're not a "real" climber
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