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jt512
Jul 19, 2009, 4:27 PM
Post #51 of 56
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onceahardman wrote: jt512 wrote: onceahardman wrote: I think you and jay are talking past each other. You are both making statements about what occurs at "most" sport crags, without substantiating anything. I don't know how else to substantiate what I wrote, except to do what I did, which was to post an excerpt from a guidebook introduction which warns that only a few routes can be set up on TR without leading them. This is true at almost every sport crag I've climbed at. In reply to: My assumption about "most" sport crags is that "most" sport routes are bolted on rappel, rather than on lead. If they are bolted on rappel, there must be a safe way to rap to the anchors, or else the route could not have been rap-bolted. Your conclusion doesn't follow from your premise. The fact that the developer, usually a highly experienced climber, got down to the anchors once without killing himself, does not imply that the feat can be repeated safely. I have explained why in a previous post. Jay My premise is that "most" sport routes are bolted on rappel. A corollary would be that "most" anchors were safely rappelled to at least once. If this action was so dangerous that it could be done safely only once, there would be lots of cases of rap bolters falling to their deaths, plying their craft.
Again, this is false, because the people who are establishing these routes aren't n00bs; they're experts. The effort that an FAist needs to go through to get the first anchor at a new crag in is often substantial, and is not a task that a beginning or intermediate climber would have the experience or the equipment to safely repeat. The task might include free soloing; bushwhacking; trail building; route finding; travel on exposed, loose terrain; aid climbing; drilling; and technical rigging. And this only has to be done for a limited number of anchors, as anchors for additional routes can be often be drilled utilizing existing bolts; just because a route was bolted on rappel, doesn't mean that the anchor was drilled by rapping down to it. In any event, once the wall is developed, the rigging will normally be removed. After one rainy season, the trail will be gone. So to safely get up and down to the anchors will require nearly the same effort as the first ascentionist.
The fact I stated in my earlier post that, since the tops of many sport crags are not often visited and hence are loose, and therefore that just being up there would present a rockfall hazard to anyone who may be climbing below, should have been sufficient to end this argument. I don't know why you are speculating about something which you obviously have little experience. I can rattle off a list of sport crags where at most a handful of routes' anchors can be accessed reasonably safely to TR, and where the rest of the routes it would be ridiculous to try. There are certainly crags with easy access to the top where beginners can top rope, and that's where they should climb until they learn to lead or find a partner who can. Not at Williamson Rock, Echo Cliffs, The Homestead, The Pit, Jacks Canyon, Mt. Lemmon, Milagrosa Canyon, the Dike Wall, Bear Crag, the Riverside Quarry, Mt. Charleston, Red Rock, most of Malibu Creek, the secret place I climb at during the week, or even the humble Tick Rock.
Jay
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el_layclimber
Jul 19, 2009, 4:58 PM
Post #52 of 56
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curt wrote: Who cares, since sport climbing and top roping are basically the same anyway.  Curt
Yes. Yes indeed.
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rockreaver
Jul 20, 2009, 2:37 PM
Post #53 of 56
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jt512 wrote: Any idea what those quotation marks mean? Jay
Ooh! Ooh! I know! I know...
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cracklover
Jul 20, 2009, 3:28 PM
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rockreaver wrote: cracklover wrote: Okay, first of all, if I'm imagining the situation that had you freaked out in the first place - I think you're overreacting, it's no big deal. I've gone places where the anchors are an arm's length below the top of the cliff face, and there's a nice flat top to the cliff. It's just not that big a deal to lie down, reach down to clip stuff in, and set up your TR like that. And having someone hold your ankles or something is a nice backup in case you have a hard time scootching back up over the edge. You're right that the PAS is not the greatest solution, because of the huge forces you'd get from falling from above the anchors directly onto it. Better off just using a plain old nylon sling, which absorbs more force. Better yet, use a purcell prusik. Best yet, just don't fall while you're rigging the anchor. Which brings me back to the first paragraph. Oh, and yeah, you could easily break a biner if the gate happened to get pushed open while you were falling in that scenario. Cheers, GO The shelf sloped downward and the Metolius hangers were about 4' down from the ledge. There was a chicken-head to grab and a crack to jam your foot into for leverage but when I tried to repeat the effort like the girls did I felt pretty exposed and backed off in a hurry. Since the discussion is kind of fun and I climb there all the time I'll snap some photos next time I'm near that particular route and maybe it might help to shed light on the problem. I think once you saw it that it might make you think "ground up or walk away". Fear isn't something I battle with often but I almost slid over and my anchors and webbing caught me before I spilled. It was enough for me to back off. I could easily have rap'd over the edge though.
Well you've been there, and I haven't. So I think you've answered your own question. If it's not safe to get to the anchors from above without rapping to them, then... there's your answer.
That means that the way the question was originally framed is a little screwy, and you should disregard much of what was said in this thread.
None of the solutions mentioned earlier (e.g. clip in with a nylon sling rather than a PAS, clip in with a locking biner so as not to break the biner if you factor two, clip in with a screamer in the system) are relevant, since they don't get to the heart of the problem: that you could slip and fall before even reaching the anchors, and that the only safe way to get to them is to rap down from above or climb up from below.
GO
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rockreaver
Jul 20, 2009, 4:57 PM
Post #55 of 56
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Perspective is everything. I knew that it was awkward as I penned it. However I have learned an awful lot despite my poor penmanship and the omission of detail.
At the very least I now know what critical information I did leave out so that the next time I do write something like that it's less a waste of time from those genuinely trying to help. That alone is worth something.
I do agree with you. Poorly penned but at least I can now see and understand how to pen the same/similar questions with more clarity.
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cracklover
Jul 20, 2009, 5:34 PM
Post #56 of 56
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cracklover wrote: ...and that the only safe way to get to them is to rap down from above or climb up from below. GO
I suppose it's worth pointing out that the above appears to ignore Jay's point (that the only intended/safe way to get to the anchors is often from below.) This is not because I disagree with his point. On the contrary.
It may or may not be advisable to get to the anchors by way of rapping from above. This is situation dependent. In fact, it's exactly as situation dependent as the question of whether you can simply walk to the anchors from above. You simply have to asses each situation as a unique case.
I know many single-pitch crags with fixed anchors in which, at the same crag, some anchors you can walk to, some anchors you can very safely rappel to, and other anchors you more or less must lead climb to get to.
The factors involved are actually very simple - and are exactly what you discussed in your OP - how accessible are the anchors, and what are the conditions like at the top of the cliff.
GO
(This post was edited by cracklover on Jul 20, 2009, 5:35 PM)
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