|
johnwesely
Jul 16, 2010, 6:13 PM
Post #26 of 55
(9417 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 13, 2006
Posts: 5360
|
airscape wrote: johnwesely wrote: markmyhsieh wrote: In reply to: You said the shoe with the skulls was Joe's idea. Did anyone point out how cheesy they were? Again and again, but he was manager with final authority. You guys should have collaborated with Ed Hardy. That would have been even cooler. X Hardy?
You are good.
|
|
|
|
|
markmyhsieh
Jul 16, 2010, 6:20 PM
Post #27 of 55
(9405 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 28, 2008
Posts: 29
|
healyje wrote: markmyhsieh wrote: Mad Rock created new designs not copies. You had me until you said this. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Let's at least be honest and acknowledge MR was a virtual budget ripoff machine where no design or design element was sacrosanct. Is that to say no innovation happened? No, but the mainstay of the business was always pretty damn clear to anyone who's been climbing for more than six months. Edit: The new MR and CX should both aspire to better things.
This is just not true. When Young and Five ten split all shoes created for five ten was cut up and thrown away. Completely new designs were made for Mad Rock before it started selling anything. Climb X on the other hand are producing identical shoes with only logo change.
Addition: You are right in that Mad Rock started as a budget shoe. Mad Rock was the manufacturer. Our competive edge is cost, because we have no middle man, but what you said about knock off products isn't true.
(This post was edited by markmyhsieh on Jul 16, 2010, 6:35 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
airscape
Jul 16, 2010, 6:34 PM
Post #28 of 55
(9381 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 26, 2001
Posts: 4240
|
markmyhsieh wrote: I know I started this thread with Mad Rock and Climb X, but the idea is to give Mad Rock transparency. If you have questsion regarding anything else like size and company culture, process of shoe design etc. I'm here.
Please elaborate.
It seems that it is all filled with office politics, people speaking behind other's backs and disrespect of management.
No disrespect, but that's the kind of feel I get while reading everything.
|
|
|
|
|
markmyhsieh
Jul 16, 2010, 6:41 PM
Post #29 of 55
(9368 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 28, 2008
Posts: 29
|
In reply to: Please elaborate. It seems that it is all filled with office politics, people speaking behind other's backs and disrespect of management. No disrespect, but that's the kind of feel I get while reading everything
There is definelty some office politics. This is true in most companies. Before when Joe was at Mad Rock it was very bad. He would often pit employees and different departments of Mad Rock against each other. He was able to do this because of the lack of communication between departments and employees. However, when I was hired, I made it a goal to keep communications clear. If I heard a rumor I would approach the person directly and ask if it was true. Relationship started forming and better communication developed within the company. This is when Joe's tactics surfaced. Joe was very disrespectful.
There is also more of a hush hush/ seniority culture in Mad Rock because of its Korean influence. This has its goods and bads. Because of this culture, I am putting myself on the line writing about everything.
After Joe left things have been getting much better. Communication between employee is very clear and in the open. Visions and goals are more transparent. However, I feel that there is still a transparency issue between managemnt and employees. Which we are working on. Now there is no disrespect from managment.
(This post was edited by markmyhsieh on Jul 16, 2010, 6:48 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
healyje
Jul 16, 2010, 6:56 PM
Post #30 of 55
(9342 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
|
markmyhsieh wrote: healyje wrote: markmyhsieh wrote: Mad Rock created new designs not copies. You had me until you said this. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Let's at least be honest and acknowledge MR was a virtual budget ripoff machine where no design or design element was sacrosanct. Is that to say no innovation happened? No, but the mainstay of the business was always pretty damn clear to anyone who's been climbing for more than six months. Edit: The new MR and CX should both aspire to better things.This is just not true. When Young and Five ten split all shoes created for five ten was cut up and thrown away. Completely new designs were made for Mad Rock before it started selling anything. Climb X on the other hand are producing identical shoes with only logo change. Addition: You are right in that Mad Rock started as a budget shoe. Mad Rock was the manufacturer. Our competive edge is cost, because we have no middle man, but what you said about knock off products isn't true.
I'm not talking just shoes by any means, but rather just about every piece of gear MR put out was based on other's designs. But for shoes we can check out:
vs.
A real piece of original work there...
|
|
|
|
|
markmyhsieh
Jul 16, 2010, 7:15 PM
Post #31 of 55
(9315 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 28, 2008
Posts: 29
|
In reply to: I'm not talking just shoes by any means, but rather just about every piece of gear MR put out was based on other's designs. But for shoes we can check out:
This is an area I can't comment on.
(This post was edited by markmyhsieh on Jul 16, 2010, 7:18 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
airscape
Jul 16, 2010, 7:51 PM
Post #32 of 55
(9278 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 26, 2001
Posts: 4240
|
Just a few points:
1:If I where you, I would have posted anonymously and have asked a moderator to verify that I do in deed work for madrock. This I would have done to protect my job.
2:It's a really negative thread and I would not have bad mouthed a previous employee or company to make my product look better. Especially not if I am in a legal battle with said employee or company. (Them lawyers am everywhere)
3:Why did you post this thread? I did not have a bad opinion of madrock at all, sure it's a budget product, but I know lots of people that are happy with it.
I don't know why this Joe Garland guy is such a hyped up character. If he put the skulls on your shoes and he is not with you anymore it's good riddance. If he stole your products, you shouldn't try to convince us that he did, you should convince the court.
4: The only real question here is: Why should I as a rock climber buy madrock?
|
|
|
|
|
markmyhsieh
Jul 16, 2010, 8:01 PM
Post #33 of 55
(9262 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 28, 2008
Posts: 29
|
1) If I posted anonymously they I would not have been transparent and credible. I am risking my job to post, but I feel that this is what this company and industry needs.
2)Your right this thread is a negative, but Its just me trying to tell it how it is or at least my point of view. I dislike Joe. He fired, lied, and cheated me. My emotions are evident in my posts.
3) I'm trying to set the record straight. I'm trying to answer questsion that people have about everything. Not just climb X, though that has been the topic. People say we use child labor and have poor conditions, but I want people to know that we do not use child labor and have great working conditions. Etc
4) Innovative, quality, and value.
|
|
|
|
|
roy_hinkley_jr
Jul 16, 2010, 8:13 PM
Post #34 of 55
(9239 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 8, 2005
Posts: 652
|
Everyone in the climbing industry knows about Joe and his decades of shading dealings. Nothing new here.
markmyhsieh wrote: 4) Innovative, quality, and value.
FAIL. Try performance, durability, comfort. Nail those three and your three fall into line automatically. Most innovation in rock shoes in the past decade has come from the marketing department. Quality means little if you have to resole in a month. Value is another name for shortcuts.
|
|
|
|
|
markmyhsieh
Jul 16, 2010, 8:23 PM
Post #35 of 55
(9221 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 28, 2008
Posts: 29
|
Roy_hinkley_jr
You are right. That did sound kind of corny. Though I do think we produce innovative products.Products such as the trigger wire, DDS sole, 3D molded heels, hooking heel. Value is the competitive edge of Mad Rock.
Quality and durability doesn't go hand in hand. We've had some problems with bad leather sourcing, but we quickly located and dealt with the problem. We've had problems with batches of rubber, but we also quickly fixed it. We are a company run by people and mistakes do happen. We admited it, fixed the problem, and learned from our mistakes.
EX. A quality racing slick isn't very durable. It needs to be changed after a few laps.
Addition: I honestly think that climbers should try different shoes and find out what works best for them.
(This post was edited by markmyhsieh on Jul 16, 2010, 8:34 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
airscape
Jul 16, 2010, 8:32 PM
Post #36 of 55
(9208 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 26, 2001
Posts: 4240
|
markmyhsieh wrote: Roy_hinkley_jr Your right. That did sound kind of corny. Though I do think we produce innovative products. products such as the trigger wire, DDS sole, 3D molded heels, hook n heel. Value is the competitive edge of Mad Rock. Quality and durability doesn't go hand in hand. We've had some problems with bad leather sourcing, but we quickly locate and dealt with the problem. We've had problems with batches of rubber, but we also quickly fix it. We are a company ran by people and mistakes do happen. We admit it, fix the problem, and learn from our mistakes. EX. A quality racing slick isn't very durable. It needs to be changed after a few laps.
Quality racing slicks don't get put on budget race cars.
I don't have a problem with madrock quality. My chalkbag has lasted just fine.
I must say though that the madpad is great. it doesn't cost anything and is pretty durable. The sofa I don't get though.
The shoes don't fit me at all, so no comments there.
|
|
|
|
|
happiegrrrl
Jul 16, 2010, 8:55 PM
Post #38 of 55
(9168 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 25, 2004
Posts: 4660
|
This is the kind of drama that makes me so very glad I no longer work in CorporationLand.
What a pile of dysfunctional Yuck.
|
|
|
|
|
healyje
Jul 16, 2010, 8:55 PM
Post #39 of 55
(9166 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
|
Yes, Sportiva updated the design when 5.10 dropped the Ascent. I started with the Ascent on Chris McNamara's recommendation and switched to the Sportiva Ventor when the Ascent was abandoned. Now all three have unfortunately been discontinued.
|
|
|
|
|
markmyhsieh
Jul 16, 2010, 8:57 PM
Post #40 of 55
(9160 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 28, 2008
Posts: 29
|
kriso9tails wrote: healyje wrote: [image]http://content.backcountry.com/images/items/medium/LSP/LSP0078/VCSW.jpg[/image] A real piece of original work there... Back in the 90s I had a pair of 5.10s that looked an awful lot like that. 5.10 ascent, I believe. [img]http://cdn.overstock.com/images/products/3/P11282973.jpg[/img]
Just found out that I don't have a non disclosure clause: the reason those shoes look like Mad Rock's is because Mad Rock designed and made them.
(This post was edited by markmyhsieh on Jul 16, 2010, 8:59 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
kriso9tails
Jul 16, 2010, 9:00 PM
Post #41 of 55
(9154 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 1, 2001
Posts: 7772
|
I see. I really liked them at the time, but, if I recall correctly, they discontinue the velcro first and I wasn't interested in the lace-up. I switched off of 5.10 only because I was having really bad luck with shoes having really bad defects showing within a month of climbing, but I didn't realize that LaSportiva had picked up the design later on.
|
|
|
|
|
kriso9tails
Jul 16, 2010, 9:03 PM
Post #42 of 55
(9144 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 1, 2001
Posts: 7772
|
markmyhsieh wrote: kriso9tails wrote: healyje wrote: A real piece of original work there... Back in the 90s I had a pair of 5.10s that looked an awful lot like that. 5.10 ascent, I believe.  Just found out that I don't have a non disclosure clause: the reason those shoes look like Mad Rock's is because Mad Rock designed and made them.
In the 90s? I didn't realize the company reached that far back. I'm not that familiar with its history, aside from small bits I've been reading in this thread and the links provided.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Jul 16, 2010, 9:09 PM
Post #43 of 55
(9135 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
markmyhsieh wrote: kriso9tails wrote: healyje wrote: [image]http://content.backcountry.com/images/items/medium/LSP/LSP0078/VCSW.jpg[/image] A real piece of original work there... Back in the 90s I had a pair of 5.10s that looked an awful lot like that. 5.10 ascent, I believe. [img]http://cdn.overstock.com/images/products/3/P11282973.jpg[/img] Just found out that I don't have a non disclosure clause: the reason those shoes look like Mad Rock's is because Mad Rock designed and made them.
I wasn't going to ask, but since you brought it up: I've heard that Mad Rock actually has a large share of the market for manufacturing climbing shoes, and that they manufacture shoes for a number of other brands. Want to share with us which other climbing shoe companies Mad Rock does manufacturing for?
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
Gmburns2000
Jul 16, 2010, 9:15 PM
Post #44 of 55
(9125 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 6, 2007
Posts: 15266
|
jt512 wrote: I wasn't going to ask, but since you brought it up: I've heard that Mad Rock actually has a large share of the market for manufacturing climbing shoes, and that they manufacture shoes for a number of other brands. Want to share with us which other climbing shoe companies Mad Rock does manufacturing for? Jay
Oh man, the world really is coming to an end.
Excellent question! I didn't realize that Madrock was the Giant Bicycle of the climbing world. That would be really interesting to know, particularly which products.
|
|
|
|
|
markmyhsieh
Jul 16, 2010, 9:18 PM
Post #45 of 55
(9121 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 28, 2008
Posts: 29
|
Hi Kriso9tail,
The Sportiva's were manufactured by Nelson Sport after the introduction Mad Rock. It uses the same last as Mad Rock's Frenzy EZ. However, th Five Ten Ascents was designed by Arturo (Current Mad Rock Designer and Resoler) before the formation of the brand Mad Rock. When Arturo designed the Frenzy EZ he used a completely new last (foot model). The outer design may be similar but the fit and shape is very different. Either way Mad Rock designed both shoes.
Neslon Sports, the parent company that started Mad Rock, has been manufacturing climbing shoes for nearly 20 years.
(This post was edited by markmyhsieh on Jul 16, 2010, 9:21 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
markmyhsieh
Jul 16, 2010, 9:20 PM
Post #46 of 55
(9115 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 28, 2008
Posts: 29
|
jt512 wrote: markmyhsieh wrote: kriso9tails wrote: healyje wrote: [image]http://content.backcountry.com/images/items/medium/LSP/LSP0078/VCSW.jpg[/image] A real piece of original work there... Back in the 90s I had a pair of 5.10s that looked an awful lot like that. 5.10 ascent, I believe. [img]http://cdn.overstock.com/images/products/3/P11282973.jpg[/img] Just found out that I don't have a non disclosure clause: the reason those shoes look like Mad Rock's is because Mad Rock designed and made them. I wasn't going to ask, but since you brought it up: I've heard that Mad Rock actually has a large share of the market for manufacturing climbing shoes, and that they manufacture shoes for a number of other brands. Want to share with us which other climbing shoe companies Mad Rock does manufacturing for? Jay
This is true. 5.10 and sportiva is all I can say.
Addition:As far as I know, Mad Rock no longer produce for 5.10 or Sportiva.
(This post was edited by markmyhsieh on Jul 16, 2010, 9:27 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
jh_angel
Jul 17, 2010, 2:24 PM
Post #48 of 55
(8975 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 12, 2004
Posts: 232
|
Any chance Mad Rock is going to put out a down turned shoe without a dual density sole? I love the way MR shoes fit and perform, but with the dual density models, it feels like it gets in the way more times than it helps, usually on steeper climbs. Maybe when you put out designs, have one of each (regular and dd) and let the people choose if they want it or not. Just my 2¢.
|
|
|
|
|
markmyhsieh
Jul 17, 2010, 6:02 PM
Post #49 of 55
(8925 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 28, 2008
Posts: 29
|
Hi jh_angel
Mad Rock new mugen tech lace is not a dual density shoe. I don't believe the new mugen tech coming out it late september or mid october has DDS either. The demons and con series are getting redesigned as well. In the redesign the the DDS level change is much more subtle. Shoes such as the flash, phoenix, banshee, don't have it as well.
My 2 cents - the DDS soles do work especially well on outdoor slab and outdoor steep. On vertical climbs its rarely ever in contact with the rock. Indoor holds are typically not textured enough to utilize the DDS level change..
You can check out new DDS soles in Mad Rock's 2011 catalog that just went up yesterday. http://www.madrockclimbing.com/catalog/4.html
(This post was edited by markmyhsieh on Jul 17, 2010, 6:09 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
