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Colinhoglund
Oct 5, 2010, 5:48 PM
Post #26 of 84
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I agree, I also see a lot of "hey it works for him, and he's a good climber " mentality going on. I guess old habits die hard. After seeing the DMM video on tethers I use a knotted nylon sling whenever I can't tie in with the rope (while rappelling etc), according to their tests the knots seem to 'cinch' and function as a shock absorber. I know it's less strong knotted, but the load won't be as hight with the knots absorbing energy.
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cruxstacean
Oct 5, 2010, 5:50 PM
Post #27 of 84
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bearbreeder wrote: jt512 wrote: Even when clipped at full length, daisy chains will fail in a factor-2 fall in the lab. Jay which nylon daisies? the BD ones? ... test results if you could ... most nylon ones are now rated 20+kn ... which means a 20+kn sling would likely ail in the same scenerio well you sure don't want to take a factor two on a sling, be it nylon or dyneema...
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j_ung
Oct 5, 2010, 5:53 PM
Post #28 of 84
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bearbreeder wrote: as long as you clip one pocket a daisy is much better than a PAS or even a knotted sling ... and i dont see anyone screaming about those ... I "scream" about them all the time. I think they're wasted money on useless junk.
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bearbreeder
Oct 5, 2010, 6:01 PM
Post #29 of 84
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cruxstacean wrote: well you sure don't want to take a factor two on a sling, be it nylon or dyneema... you dont want to take a factor 2 period ... even on dynamic rope ... least of all when setting up a lower or rap ... which is the only time u should be using yr tether ... but hey sh!t happens ...
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jt512
Oct 5, 2010, 6:10 PM
Post #30 of 84
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bearbreeder wrote: thanks .. points - a daisy may fail at the pocket tacks .. but if its rated for 22 kn ... then it should fail at that rating regardless of where it fails ... The point is that it can fail in a factor-2 fall.
In reply to: - from http://www.caves.org/section/vertical/nh/53/RiggingForRescue-DaisyChains-2005.pdf ... where we have actual data as long as you clip one pocket a daisy is much better than a PAS or even a knotted sling ... and i dont see anyone screaming about those ... Then you haven't bothered to do a search. Jay
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MS1
Oct 5, 2010, 6:14 PM
Post #31 of 84
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bearbreeder wrote: thanks .. points - a daisy may fail at the pocket tacks .. but if its rated for 22 kn ... then it should fail at that rating regardless of where it fails ... - from http://www.caves.org/section/vertical/nh/53/RiggingForRescue-DaisyChains-2005.pdf ... where we have actual data Table 4 highlights some of the drops conducted with the Climb High 25mm Nylon Daisy Chains. While the MAF values were considerable, none of the tests failed the lanyard or resulted in any significant visible damage. as long as you clip one pocket a daisy is much better than a PAS or even a knotted sling ... and i dont see anyone screaming about those ... just use the tether to set up for lowers and rappels ... Even if your daisy can survive a 20kN load, you or your anchor might not be up for it.
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bearbreeder
Oct 5, 2010, 6:19 PM
Post #32 of 84
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jt512 wrote: The point is that it can fail in a factor-2 fall. Jay a lot of stuff can fail in a factor 2 ... PAS, any knotted sling dyneema or otherwise, any dyneema, old unknotted slings, old rope, etc ... unless you only use shiny new rope/cord for yur purcell every year ... or buy a new sterling chain reactor ... lol you do need to use SOMETHING to tether you while you set up for a rap ... just dont use it in substitution of a rope when anchoring
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MS1
Oct 5, 2010, 7:51 PM
Post #33 of 84
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bearbreeder wrote: jt512 wrote: The point is that it can fail in a factor-2 fall. Jay a lot of stuff can fail in a factor 2 ... PAS, any knotted sling dyneema or otherwise, any dyneema, old unknotted slings, old rope, etc ... unless you only use shiny new rope/cord for yur purcell every year ... or buy a new sterling chain reactor ... lol you do need to use SOMETHING to tether you while you set up for a rap ... just dont use it in substitution of a rope when anchoring With the rope or a purcell, you won't see anything close to 20kN of peak load.
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bearbreeder
Oct 5, 2010, 8:02 PM
Post #34 of 84
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MS1 wrote: With the rope or a purcell, you won't see anything close to 20kN of peak load. you should stop people from using chain reactors, slings, PAS or just quickdraws to set up for lowers/raps then ... never mind daisies none of those wil give you a "soft catch" how exactly will you use the rope alone to set up for a rap? .... no one is saying use the pas/sling/purcell/daisy as a multipitch anchor ....
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Oct 5, 2010, 8:03 PM)
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MS1
Oct 5, 2010, 9:59 PM
Post #35 of 84
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bearbreeder wrote: MS1 wrote: With the rope or a purcell, you won't see anything close to 20kN of peak load. you should stop people from using chain reactors, slings, PAS or just quickdraws to set up for lowers/raps then ... never mind daisies none of those wil give you a "soft catch" how exactly will you use the rope alone to set up for a rap? .... no one is saying use the pas/sling/purcell/daisy as a multipitch anchor .... It is really quite simple. You can use non-dynamic tethers all you want, so long as you aren't falling on them. Most of the time this works fine; my most common anchor connection is a pair of quickdraws clipped into chain anchors on sport routes. If you think you might fall on your connection, make it something that can keep peak loads to a manageable level; whether the rope or a purcell is more convenient will depend on your situation.
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vivalargo
Oct 6, 2010, 4:13 AM
Post #36 of 84
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I have always felt the beauty of a daisy was quite simple; It allows an easy escape from the belay. ----------- How many people out thee have had a situation where they had to "escape" the belay, and also where using a daisy tie in greatly facilitated the escape. I have to wonder if the entire "escape" scenario is not overstated, unless there is a large percentage of folks out there bailing just because they feel like it. JL
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suprasoup
Oct 6, 2010, 7:13 AM
Post #37 of 84
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I'm pretty partial to my kong slydes.
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guangzhou
Oct 6, 2010, 7:30 AM
Post #38 of 84
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Fine, I'll bite. I have used and will continue to use my daisy to safety off when clearing a belay. The key is to clip completely into the sling and not just the bar tacks. In many cases, I use a QD to safety these days, but I understand why a daisy is useful. A daisy is a long sling that has had loops sewn into it to shorten it's usable length. Yes, each loop can fail, but I don't clip the bar tacks, I clip the sling. If you're clipped into the sling and not the bar-tack, every loop can fail and you're still fine. To me, using a daisy chain is just like using a sling. Don't climb above the anchor, clip the whole daisy not just the bar-tack, and you'll be fine. Watch the end of the video, Black Diamond Suggest you use the two binner approach to reduce the risk of a a bar tack being clipped on accident. . You can make a daisy buy using along sling and trying it off into a series of shorter loops if you want.
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guangzhou
Oct 7, 2010, 12:37 AM
Post #39 of 84
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suprasoup wrote: I'm pretty partial to my kong slydes. [image]http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs317.snc4/41183_453252178523_726203523_6284464_7123416_n.jpg[/image] I always fear a belayer wearing gloves. I know it's not rational.
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jt512
Oct 7, 2010, 7:27 AM
Post #40 of 84
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guangzhou wrote: suprasoup wrote: I'm pretty partial to my kong slydes. [image]http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs317.snc4/41183_453252178523_726203523_6284464_7123416_n.jpg[/image] I always fear a belayer wearing gloves. I know it's not rational. It's a hell of a lot worse than just "not rational." Jay
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Colinhoglund
Oct 7, 2010, 4:57 PM
Post #41 of 84
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guangzhou wrote: Fine, I'll bite. I have used and will continue to use my daisy to safety off when clearing a belay. The key is to clip completely into the sling and not just the bar tacks. In many cases, I use a QD to safety these days, but I understand why a daisy is useful. A daisy is a long sling that has had loops sewn into it to shorten it's usable length. Yes, each loop can fail, but I don't clip the bar tacks, I clip the sling. If you're clipped into the sling and not the bar-tack, every loop can fail and you're still fine. To me, using a daisy chain is just like using a sling. Don't climb above the anchor, clip the whole daisy not just the bar-tack, and you'll be fine. Watch the end of the video, Black Diamond Suggest you use the two binner approach to reduce the risk of a a bar tack being clipped on accident. . You can make a daisy buy using along sling and trying it off into a series of shorter loops if you want. I'll write this with all the civility I can muster. Daisy chains are a poor use for a tether for several reasons. This may be wordy but here goes. 1) First off lets clear the deck by understanding that the maximum threshold for human survival is said to be 12kn. Beyond that it doesn't matter if your system held - your dead or close to it. Therefore whatever systems we use must have as their primary function, the ability to keep the peak load in a worst case scenario (FF2) well below 12kn. 2) A daisy chain may have the strength to survive a FF2, but I doubt you would on the nearly static sling it is made of. However, a FF2 is highly avoidable. What is more plausible is a smaller loading. 3) In a small loading scenario, (ie slack in tether to move at anchor) the smaller bar tacks on a daisy *could* fail because of the lack of energy absorbing properties. This would lead to a zipper of all pockets to the end of the sling. When this happens the force will be near or above the human survival threshold. (DMM FF1, 13kn nylon, 21kn spectra) You will not survive that kind of impact. 4) Therefore we need to find a tether system that will either A) absorb the impact and keep a small shock from hurting the climber, or B) not allow smaller impacts to multiply into bigger ones. 5) I see two options. For solution A) a Purcell prussic or a Beal Dynaconnection. Neither of these will ever approach a 12Kn load in any situation (less sure about the prussic, but the Dynaconnection has been lab tested and did quite well) And B) a knotted nylon sling. At around 15kn total strength it is well above the human threshold. Most importantly, each link will not fail and cascade into a higher load. Secondly; while limited, the energy absorbing properties of nylon and the knot will help limit the total shock load on the climber. And because the knots keep the pockets smaller, the user is more likely to have less slack in the system to cause a longer fall/higher FF. DO NOT USE KNOTTED SPECTRA! According to the data I'm using (DMM Sling test) spectra knotted (low break strength 10kn) or unknotted (high shock load 20kn) does poorly. 6) A few notes to leave with. Even a FF1 on any tether would suck, so try to minimize the slack in your system at all times. I try to keep my'ne taught whenever possible. Just like when leading with a rope, the energy absorbing characteristics of the system are more important than max strength. Thanks for reading, my intent is to inform. If I have been confusing in any way let me know so I can edit. Edit for clarity
(This post was edited by Colinhoglund on Oct 7, 2010, 5:59 PM)
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jbro_135
Oct 7, 2010, 5:06 PM
Post #42 of 84
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Colinhoglund wrote: 3) In a small loading scenario, (ie slack in tether to move at anchor) the smaller bar tacks on a daisy *could* fail because of the lack of energy absorbing properties. This would lead to a zipper of all pockets to the end of the sling. When this happens the force will be near or above the human survival threshold. (DMM FF1, 13kn nylon, 21kn spectra) You will not survive that kind of impact. this doesn't make any sense
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jt512
Oct 7, 2010, 5:13 PM
Post #43 of 84
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Colinhoglund wrote: guangzhou wrote: Fine, I'll bite. I have used and will continue to use my daisy to safety off when clearing a belay. The key is to clip completely into the sling and not just the bar tacks. In many cases, I use a QD to safety these days, but I understand why a daisy is useful. A daisy is a long sling that has had loops sewn into it to shorten it's usable length. Yes, each loop can fail, but I don't clip the bar tacks, I clip the sling. If you're clipped into the sling and not the bar-tack, every loop can fail and you're still fine. To me, using a daisy chain is just like using a sling. Don't climb above the anchor, clip the whole daisy not just the bar-tack, and you'll be fine. Watch the end of the video, Black Diamond Suggest you use the two binner approach to reduce the risk of a a bar tack being clipped on accident. . You can make a daisy buy using along sling and trying it off into a series of shorter loops if you want. I'll write this with all the civility I can muster. Daisy chains are a poor use for a tether for several reasons. This may be wordy but here goes. 1) First off lets clear the deck by understanding that the maximum threshold for human survival is said to be 12kn. Beyond that it doesn't matter if your system held - your dead or close to it. Therefore whatever systems we use must have as their primary function, the ability to keep the peak load in a worst case scenario (FF2) well below 12kn. 2) A daisy chain may have the strength to survive a FF2, but I doubt you would on the nearly static sling it is made of. However, a FF2 is highly avoidable. What is more plausible is a smaller loading. 3) In a small loading scenario, (ie slack in tether to move at anchor) the smaller bar tacks on a daisy *could* fail because of the lack of energy absorbing properties. This would lead to a zipper of all pockets to the end of the sling. When this happens the force will be near or above the human survival threshold. (DMM FF1, 13kn nylon, 21kn spectra) You will not survive that kind of impact. 4) Therefore we need to find a tether system that will either A) absorb the impact and keep a small shock from hurting the climber, or B) not allow smaller impacts to multiply into bigger ones. 5) I see two options. For solution A) a Purcell prussic or a Beal Dynaconnection. Neither of these will ever approach a 12Kn load in any situation (less sure about the prussic, but the Dynaconnection has been lab tested and did quite well) And B) a knotted nylon sling. At around 15kn total strength it is well above the human threshold. Most importantly, each link will not fail and cascade into a higher load. Secondly; while limited, the energy absorbing properties of nylon and the knot will help limit the total shock load on the climber. And because the knots keep the pockets smaller, the user is more likely to have less slack in the system to cause a longer fall/higher FF. DO NOT USE KNOTTED SPECTRA! According to the data I'm using (DMM Sling test) spectra knotted (low break strength 10kn) or unknotted (high shock load 20kn) does poorly. 6) A few notes to leave with. Even a FF1 on any tether would suck, so try to minimize the slack in your system at all times. I try to keep my'ne taught whenever possible. Just like when leading with a rope, the energy absorbing characteristics of the system are more important than max strength. Thanks for reading, my intent is to inform. If I have been confusing in any way let me know so I can edit. You could put spaces between your paragraphs. Jay
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Colinhoglund
Oct 7, 2010, 6:08 PM
Post #44 of 84
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It's simple, if one pocket fails in a slip/fall (which is likely at the low figures, circa 2-3kn, with no energy absorption) then the fall will continue into the next one, which will likely fail again. Repeat until end of sling and then shock load your spine. Ouch.
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Colinhoglund
Oct 7, 2010, 6:10 PM
Post #45 of 84
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Wow, thats all the flaming I got from you is bad structure? Noted and corrected sir!
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roy_hinkley_jr
Oct 7, 2010, 6:43 PM
Post #46 of 84
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Colinhoglund wrote: It's simple, if one pocket fails in a slip/fall (which is likely at the low figures, circa 2-3kn, with no energy absorption) then the fall will continue into the next one, which will likely fail again. Repeat until end of sling and then shock load your spine. Ouch. Never mind that tests don't back this up. The pockets tend to blow at about 5 kN and the ripping of stitching does reduce the energy of the fall. The only valid point you made is #6...don't fall on any tether. All this daisy chain fear is much ado about nothing. Used properly, they are fine.
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bearbreeder
Oct 7, 2010, 6:57 PM
Post #47 of 84
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Colinhoglund wrote: It's simple, if one pocket fails in a slip/fall (which is likely at the low figures, circa 2-3kn, with no energy absorption) then the fall will continue into the next one, which will likely fail again. Repeat until end of sling and then shock load your spine. Ouch. didn't camp show ~5kn on a FF2 daisy fall where the pockets blew? To simulate this configuration the CAMP laboratory used a CAMP Dyneema daisy chain and a CAMP Cream Ale harness with a free fall tower and 80kg dummy (Photo 8). The goal was to test a fall factor two at a height of 70cm above the anchor. The theoretical drop height is 70 + 70 = 140cm. But because all pockets on the daisy chain break, the real drop height is 190cm (Photo 9). The maximum registered strength is 4.73 kN. When clipped to an anchor with a daisy, you must never climb above the anchor. http://www.climber.co.uk/categories/articleitem.asp?item=583 of course the difference with other test such as DMM is that camp put a harness in the system .... do daisy pockets work as load limiters? ... why not just use full strength loops for aid instead of daisies? not that i would ever tether on dyneema ... lol has anyone actually had a PAS/daisy/sling faiure while using it as a tether and died? ...
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Oct 7, 2010, 6:58 PM)
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dingus
Oct 7, 2010, 8:01 PM
Post #48 of 84
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I just tie in with the rope. DMT
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jt512
Oct 7, 2010, 8:26 PM
Post #49 of 84
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Colinhoglund wrote: Wow , thats all the flaming I got from you is bad structure? Noted and corrected sir! It wasn't a flame. Jay
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anthonymason
Oct 8, 2010, 12:33 AM
Post #50 of 84
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I agree with you.
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