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i_h8_choss
Jun 10, 2010, 1:31 PM
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cantbuymefriends wrote: From the article in Alpinist: In reply to: In an interview with Redbull.com on November 17, 2009—the day before he departed for Argentina—Lama compared the ethics of today with Maestri's: "Cesare Maestri, who made the first ascent in 1970, left an entire highway of bolts and pitons in the mountain's south-east face, which has nothing to do with today's climbing ethics... Back in the days of old school mountaineering only conquering the peak was important—not so much how this goal was reached." Lama added that he planned to make the first free ascent of the Compressor Route and return home without leaving any noticeable mark on the iconic peak. He stated that it was "not in our interest to leave any traces." And today only the recording of the ascent is important - not how it is done... Let's just say that he failed on all remarks.
So when Lama is out on the sharp end, and 50 mph winds are whippin through, you think he really has time/or care to tell the film crew what to do, where to place bolts, etc.?
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Gmburns2000
Jun 10, 2010, 2:33 PM
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i_h8_choss wrote: cantbuymefriends wrote: From the article in Alpinist: In reply to: In an interview with Redbull.com on November 17, 2009—the day before he departed for Argentina—Lama compared the ethics of today with Maestri's: "Cesare Maestri, who made the first ascent in 1970, left an entire highway of bolts and pitons in the mountain's south-east face, which has nothing to do with today's climbing ethics... Back in the days of old school mountaineering only conquering the peak was important—not so much how this goal was reached." Lama added that he planned to make the first free ascent of the Compressor Route and return home without leaving any noticeable mark on the iconic peak. He stated that it was "not in our interest to leave any traces." And today only the recording of the ascent is important - not how it is done... Let's just say that he failed on all remarks. So when Lama is out on the sharp end, and 50 mph winds are whippin through, you think he really has time/or care to tell the film crew what to do, where to place bolts, etc.?
You have to look at the big picture here. No trace doesn't just mean him, it means the entire project, which includes the film crew. The film crew never would have been there if not for the climber. If climbers want publicity, they have to take responsibility for how that publicity is recorded. After all, the film crew wasn't just up there waiting for someone to come along, they were up there to record him.
While I don't know how things were planned, it would surprise me if no one on the team, particularly in the face of knowing this was a clean attempt, discussed beforehand what that meant: just the climber, or the project as a whole. It seems to me that it would have been rather dense to not talk about the poject as a whole, because a clean attempt on the Compressor Route sounds foolish with extra bolts added to record it. If one has to add the bolts just to record it, then what's the point of doing the clean attempt to begin with?
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chadnsc
Jun 10, 2010, 6:44 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: If one has to add the bolts just to record it, then what's the point of doing the clean attempt to begin with?
This is worth repeating.
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PosiDave
Jun 10, 2010, 7:11 PM
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Sorry about that. It was actually to the original poster.
I didn't mean to reply to you.
I agree that it isn't right. that it was left. But I completely agree that i is not Lamas fault or Red Bulls and that whoever bolted the climb should be the ones to blame.
But I also to a point agree with the meathead theory that they are in the wrong as well. But who isn't at some point in time right?
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i_h8_choss
Jun 10, 2010, 7:12 PM
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We'll never know the facts until the expedition team gives a formal apology, which may never happen.
But I'm seeing similarities with this incident and the Gulf oil spill. Nobody wants to admit they did something wrong, and apologize for it.
Integrity is slowly becoming a lost art.
When I was 17, I got caught driving drunk by an off duty police officer. For me, step 1 was realizing I did something wrong. Step 2 was apologizing to the city and my family. Step 3 was paying the price and step 4 fixing it by not driving drunk anymore.
In this case it seems like steps 1 through 3 were skipped and step 4 was handled by paying the guides from Argentina.
We live in a f*cked up world where profits and company growth has become more important than our beautiful natural resources.
Profits, profits, profits. That's all these folks at Red Bull care about. That's why my favorite outfit is a plain black tee and jeans.  Labels and brands can kiss my a$$. Doesn't impress me one bit. I don't like Red Bull either. I think I've had 3 of them in my life.
I'd blame the entire crew for this. but put more blame on the incompitent film crew that drilled the bolts. A 19 year old (sponsored or not) trying to free a route doesn't deserve a lot of blame for this, but maybe a little.
Fixed lines are a different issue. 700 meters is a lot of fixed rope. But when the weather goes bad in Patagonia, smart choice is to go down.
Running out of money for the expedition should not be an excuse. Red Bull is a multi-million dollar co.
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Gmburns2000
Jun 10, 2010, 7:18 PM
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can't fault you for any of that, and I can't fault anyone for leaving fixed lines due to bad weather. Certainly, anyone can agree that it is more important to be safe. I think the issues are the added bolts and the fact the lines were left for several months. Presumably there'd be good weather for retrieving stuff before that.
You're right, though, we haven't heard from the kid, film crew, or Red Bull. It would be nice to, but I doubt it will happen.
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mr_rogers
Jun 10, 2010, 9:34 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: You're right, though, we haven't heard from the kid, film crew, or Red Bull. It would be nice to, but I doubt it will happen.
Actually, Lama dropped a comment on the RedBolt page advertising his trip. I think it was an attempted defense to the savage beating he was getting from the commenters. His response didn't really improve matters. The whole bit about, "Personally, I don’t believe that we did anything wrong" didn't seem to go over very well. Go figure.
Some of the Lama defenders and apologists over here might want to go add their two cents to the RedBolt page. 'Cause he's gettin' tore-the-fuck-up over there without any backup.
In reply to: Due to different statements and allegations published on diverse platforms regarding my project on Cerro Torre I would like to clarify several facts. I want to make sure that these discussions take place on the actual facts and on the way they occurred. I came to Patagonia together with my partner to attempt a freeclimbing ascent of the compressor route on Cerro Torre. A filmteam was with us to document the attempt. Every step made in Parque Nacional Los Glaciares and the Cero Torre by either my partner, myself or the accompanying production crew was executed in accordance with the rules and regulations as set out by the local mountain guides and the park administration; all necessary permits have been requested and granted. Due to bad weather and bad conditions we were forced to return home even earlier than planned. The danger of avalanches made it impossible for us to remove the fixed ropes and gear we had left on Col de la Patiencia before our departure. Therefore we engaged some pro guides to remove it for us, as soon as conditions would allow it. Constant communication with the local authorities during the project and the cleaning effort ensured that all standards were met and. if possible . surpassed. The current status is that the project is on hold until next year. The entire shoulder and wall have been cleaned, except for bolts used for the production which will definitely be removed after next years attempt. Personally, I don’t believe that we did anything wrong. In fact it was us to remove loads of old, ruined ropes and slings from the mountain which were left behind by others…I know a lot has been discussed about my project and a lot of false information has been spread. Therefore I kindly ask you to judge my project at its end. I’m looking forward to returning next season, Patagonia has impressed me more than anything that I have seen before. Regards, David
http://www.redbull.com/...eed&refmodpos=A2
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mr_rogers
Jun 10, 2010, 9:58 PM
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It also turns out that Lama discussed the trip, but not the bone-headedness, on his blog.
http://www.david-lama.com/...news_pi1[newspage]=0
And, whoa, hey! He met Messner and they did the little photo-op game and talky bits as press for the trip!
http://www.david-lama.com/...d-bulletin-1109.html
I don't speak German, and have no idea what they said. I'm going to imagine it went like this:
Messner: So, heading to Cerro Torre, eh?
Lama: Yup. Gonna bolt the shit out of it!
Messner: Hell's yeah! Nothing quite like a bit of murder of the impossible, eh?
Finally, it turns out that Corey Rich was one of the photographers on the trip. Wonder if he had any thoughts on the bolting?
http://news.coreyrich.com/...oto-competition.html
(This post was edited by mr_rogers on Jun 10, 2010, 10:00 PM)
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Gmburns2000
Jun 11, 2010, 12:43 AM
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mr_rogers wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: You're right, though, we haven't heard from the kid, film crew, or Red Bull. It would be nice to, but I doubt it will happen. Actually, Lama dropped a comment on the RedBolt page advertising his trip. I think it was an attempted defense to the savage beating he was getting from the commenters. His response didn't really improve matters. The whole bit about, "Personally, I don’t believe that we did anything wrong" didn't seem to go over very well. Go figure. Some of the Lama defenders and apologists over here might want to go add their two cents to the RedBolt page. 'Cause he's gettin' tore-the-fuck-up over there without any backup. In reply to: Due to different statements and allegations published on diverse platforms regarding my project on Cerro Torre I would like to clarify several facts. I want to make sure that these discussions take place on the actual facts and on the way they occurred. I came to Patagonia together with my partner to attempt a freeclimbing ascent of the compressor route on Cerro Torre. A filmteam was with us to document the attempt. Every step made in Parque Nacional Los Glaciares and the Cero Torre by either my partner, myself or the accompanying production crew was executed in accordance with the rules and regulations as set out by the local mountain guides and the park administration; all necessary permits have been requested and granted. Due to bad weather and bad conditions we were forced to return home even earlier than planned. The danger of avalanches made it impossible for us to remove the fixed ropes and gear we had left on Col de la Patiencia before our departure. Therefore we engaged some pro guides to remove it for us, as soon as conditions would allow it. Constant communication with the local authorities during the project and the cleaning effort ensured that all standards were met and. if possible . surpassed. The current status is that the project is on hold until next year. The entire shoulder and wall have been cleaned, except for bolts used for the production which will definitely be removed after next years attempt. Personally, I don’t believe that we did anything wrong. In fact it was us to remove loads of old, ruined ropes and slings from the mountain which were left behind by others…I know a lot has been discussed about my project and a lot of false information has been spread. Therefore I kindly ask you to judge my project at its end. I’m looking forward to returning next season, Patagonia has impressed me more than anything that I have seen before. Regards, David
Thanks for sharing that. It definitely helps.
I'm still not sure he's helping himself. yeah, they have followed the rules, but are the rules and the ethics the same?
Still, what's the point of freeing this route if more bolts are required to document it, even if those bolts are going to be removed (are more bolts going to be needed next year?).
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sbaclimber
Jun 11, 2010, 5:34 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: I'm still not sure he's helping himself. yeah, they have followed the rules, but are the rules and the ethics the same?
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hugepedro
Jun 11, 2010, 9:03 AM
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glahhg wrote: rangerrob wrote: The moment a climber becomes sponsored, they lose the true meaning of being a climber...at least in my book. This is a prime example of that. RR That's a pretty ignorant statement. How many big badass routes around the world you think would get done without any kind of sponsorship?
One might think the above if one's exposure to such routes and the people who are doing them is limited to what one reads in the mags.
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hugepedro
Jun 11, 2010, 9:22 AM
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Yup. Drilling rock just for the convenience of a film crew is a total bitch move. And if you are the superstar climber that is the reason for such douchebaggery, then you are responsible, they wouldn't be there if not for you, and you can alway say "no". I mean, if that's "clean", then Hillary climbed Everest in alpine style.
I don't care if there were a thousand bolts already, if the justification is that it was already overbolted then you better not complain when some chuffer adds more bolts to the 5 bolt 50 footers at the local crag just so they never have to clip above their waist.
I'm with Yanqui. This sort of garbage needs to be shouted right out of our little world. And I don't care if your 19. If you're going to go do this crap you'd better be sure you know what your getting into, and if you F up you deserve to be reviled for your stupidity. Live and learn.
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yanqui
Jun 11, 2010, 1:41 PM
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The rabbit hole keeps getting deeper ....
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cantbuymefriends
Jun 11, 2010, 2:57 PM
Post #89 of 190
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i_h8_choss wrote: cantbuymefriends wrote: From the article in Alpinist: In reply to: In an interview with Redbull.com on November 17, 2009—the day before he departed for Argentina—Lama compared the ethics of today with Maestri's: "Cesare Maestri, who made the first ascent in 1970, left an entire highway of bolts and pitons in the mountain's south-east face, which has nothing to do with today's climbing ethics... Back in the days of old school mountaineering only conquering the peak was important—not so much how this goal was reached." Lama added that he planned to make the first free ascent of the Compressor Route and return home without leaving any noticeable mark on the iconic peak. He stated that it was "not in our interest to leave any traces." And today only the recording of the ascent is important - not how it is done... Let's just say that he failed on all remarks. So when Lama is out on the sharp end, and 50 mph winds are whippin through, you think he really has time/or care to tell the film crew what to do, where to place bolts, etc.?
Maybe it's just me, but I just think that adding a lot of bolts to an already established route kinda defeats the purpose of trying to improve the style and ethic of the route without leaving any noticeable marks or traces...
(This post was edited by cantbuymefriends on Jun 11, 2010, 4:39 PM)
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i_h8_choss
Jun 11, 2010, 6:55 PM
Post #90 of 190
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cantbuymefriends wrote: i_h8_choss wrote: cantbuymefriends wrote: From the article in Alpinist: In reply to: In an interview with Redbull.com on November 17, 2009—the day before he departed for Argentina—Lama compared the ethics of today with Maestri's: "Cesare Maestri, who made the first ascent in 1970, left an entire highway of bolts and pitons in the mountain's south-east face, which has nothing to do with today's climbing ethics... Back in the days of old school mountaineering only conquering the peak was important—not so much how this goal was reached." Lama added that he planned to make the first free ascent of the Compressor Route and return home without leaving any noticeable mark on the iconic peak. He stated that it was "not in our interest to leave any traces." And today only the recording of the ascent is important - not how it is done... Let's just say that he failed on all remarks. So when Lama is out on the sharp end, and 50 mph winds are whippin through, you think he really has time/or care to tell the film crew what to do, where to place bolts, etc.? I can't imagine the film crew was up there placing bolts in 50 mph winds. Maybe it's just me, but I just think that adding a lot of bolts to an already established route kinda defeats the purpose of trying to improve the style and ethic of the route without leaving any noticeable marks or traces...
O.k. maybe a bit sarcastic, but...
Have you been to Los Glaciers?
Cause if you have, then you'll know that 50 mph winds are the norm, and you're lucky if you get that and the skies are clear. 70 - 90 mph are common too. Perfect weather in So. Patagonia is very rare, and when you get it, you better get some shit done.
Lama says "We had no idea then that this weather-window would in fact be the only one in this Patagonian summer… we didn’t even see the Torre for a month''
Climbing parties down there very often wait many weeks or months to achieve their goal.
Which would explain the fixed rope. 700 meters of fixed rope would make it very easy for film crews to move quickly between weather windows.
The bolts......blame the film crew. Did everything legal. They were working with guides from Argentina.
Trying to get their 'sick' shots so they could keep their jobs and sell a little product. That allows them to keep travelling and shooting these expeditions.
I'm not saying that Lama is not to blame. I'm not a Lama supporter or backing him up. I'm just saying take it easy on him. It's not entirely his fault.
Todays media is f*cked. If anybody doesn't realize that, yer a gumby.
Sad to hear it was Cory Richards shooting. I like some of his work. But next time I see his work, it'll make me think twice about what he did.
Very, very bad form on the crew.
It will come back to haunt them.
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TarHeelEMT
Jan 24, 2011, 1:51 PM
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In a conversation with me, Lama explained that they plan to reach the summit via the normal Compressor Route bolt ladders, and then rappel a separate line of weakness on the headwall, placing protection bolts on rappel. Yes, that's right - rap-bolting the Cerro Torre headwall! I tried to convince Lama that he might place the bolts on lead, hanging from hooks, but he insisted that rap-bolting was his intention. Zack Smith chimed in with, "You know that people will be very upset if you place your bolts on rappel, right?" Lama's response was "I can take it."
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boymeetsrock
Jan 24, 2011, 2:04 PM
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This is really a sad showing. This kid shows some exceptional ignorance and arrogance and absolutely zero style in attempting this challenge.
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cracklover
Jan 24, 2011, 6:31 PM
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Sounds like they plan (or at least claim) to not repeat their previous mistakes. Too bad they plan to make new ones.
Ugh.
GO
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spikeddem
Jan 24, 2011, 7:00 PM
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It's just a bolt. It's rock. Get over it.
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rangerrob
Jan 24, 2011, 8:06 PM
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You've quite obviously never seen Cerro Torre in person.
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boymeetsrock
Jan 24, 2011, 8:13 PM
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spikeddem wrote: It's just a bolt. It's rock. Get over it.
Not exactly. It's a precedent. One that MANY climbers disagree with.
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spikeddem
Jan 24, 2011, 8:16 PM
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rangerrob wrote: You've quite obviously never seen Cerro Torre in person.
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