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jsh
Mar 22, 2011, 9:54 PM
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Spike, glad you're okay.
If this incident gave you any new insight into figuring out whether a belayer really is solid or not, I'd love to hear it.
Certainly, you thought he was, and he wasn't. Just upthread, we have "I'm 100% solid on the belay ... I just took my hand off to itch my foot" A nontrivial number of people self-assess and report themselves as competent, when in fact they are not. So the crucial thing is to figure out who these people are before you give them your rope. Any insight you have on that, now, is helpful. Can you see anything in 20/20 hindsight that might have warned you?
Love the Don Cheadle quote. perfectly apt.
(This post was edited by jsh on Mar 22, 2011, 9:55 PM)
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jape
Apr 14, 2011, 4:08 PM
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spikeddem wrote: potreroed wrote: I'm glad you're OK. I'm going to get a lot of shit for saying this but I believe that if your belayer had been using a gri-gri this would not have happened. Gri-gris really do give you that extra edge of safety. I believe that in this case, you're likely correct. Although, I'd rather say that there is only a "good chance" that it may have been prevented. A gri-gri may not automatically grab a rope without any braking hand action (and should absolutely not be belayed with in such a way), but it at least does have a chance. That being said, I stick by my usual statement that if I don't trust someone to belay me with a tube-style device, then I wouldn't trust them to belay me with a gri-gri.
Good chance is more closer to 100% than you prolly think. a gri-gri 2 will most definitely catch on a 9.9.
I have used gris basically for as many years as they have been around on everything from A4 solos (have caught numerous 30-50' aid falls) to 5.13s (probably 100s-1000's of falls here) and really get siked out when someone wants to belay on a fig8 or atc....plaquettes/cinch/etc are a bit better brake but still not even close to the GG2. Sometimes it helps me send even on the safest routes because I am so gripped, but usually it is just a tweak in the back of my mind that makes me take b4 even fighting thru the hard moves.
It doesn't help that I watched a near deck with a cinch @ the lode 2 years ago and also have seen several decks with other atc style devices, including a horrific one from the top of a climbing gym.
What the heck are you doing working sport routes in the lode being belayed by a tube? Sounds like you got super lucky! A shoddy belay on a gri-gri is damned safe(r) compared to any friction device....
(This post was edited by jape on Apr 14, 2011, 4:18 PM)
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notapplicable
Apr 14, 2011, 7:48 PM
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jape wrote: spikeddem wrote: potreroed wrote: I'm glad you're OK. I'm going to get a lot of shit for saying this but I believe that if your belayer had been using a gri-gri this would not have happened. Gri-gris really do give you that extra edge of safety. I believe that in this case, you're likely correct. Although, I'd rather say that there is only a "good chance" that it may have been prevented. A gri-gri may not automatically grab a rope without any braking hand action (and should absolutely not be belayed with in such a way), but it at least does have a chance. That being said, I stick by my usual statement that if I don't trust someone to belay me with a tube-style device, then I wouldn't trust them to belay me with a gri-gri. Potreroed is right... Good chance is more closer to 100% than you prolly think. a gri-gri 2 will most definitely catch on a 9.9. I have used gris basically for as many years as they have been around on everything from A4 solos (have caught numerous 30-50' aid falls) to 5.13s (probably 100s-1000's of falls here) and really get siked out when someone wants to belay on a fig8 or atc....plaquettes/cinch/etc are a bit better brake but still not even close to the GG2. Sometimes it helps me send even on the safest routes because I am so gripped, but usually it is just a tweak in the back of my mind that makes me take b4 even fighting thru the hard moves. It doesn't help that I watched a near deck with a cinch @ the lode 2 years ago and also have seen several decks with other atc style devices, including a horrific one from the top of a climbing gym. What the heck are you doing working sport routes in the lode being belayed by a tube? Sounds like you got super lucky! A shoddy belay on a gri-gri is damned safe(r) compared to any friction device....
This^^ all sounds like a problem with belayers, not with belay devices.
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justroberto
Apr 14, 2011, 9:31 PM
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notapplicable wrote: jape wrote: spikeddem wrote: potreroed wrote: I'm glad you're OK. I'm going to get a lot of shit for saying this but I believe that if your belayer had been using a gri-gri this would not have happened. Gri-gris really do give you that extra edge of safety. I believe that in this case, you're likely correct. Although, I'd rather say that there is only a "good chance" that it may have been prevented. A gri-gri may not automatically grab a rope without any braking hand action (and should absolutely not be belayed with in such a way), but it at least does have a chance. That being said, I stick by my usual statement that if I don't trust someone to belay me with a tube-style device, then I wouldn't trust them to belay me with a gri-gri. Potreroed is right... Good chance is more closer to 100% than you prolly think. a gri-gri 2 will most definitely catch on a 9.9. I have used gris basically for as many years as they have been around on everything from A4 solos (have caught numerous 30-50' aid falls) to 5.13s (probably 100s-1000's of falls here) and really get siked out when someone wants to belay on a fig8 or atc....plaquettes/cinch/etc are a bit better brake but still not even close to the GG2. Sometimes it helps me send even on the safest routes because I am so gripped, but usually it is just a tweak in the back of my mind that makes me take b4 even fighting thru the hard moves. It doesn't help that I watched a near deck with a cinch @ the lode 2 years ago and also have seen several decks with other atc style devices, including a horrific one from the top of a climbing gym. What the heck are you doing working sport routes in the lode being belayed by a tube? Sounds like you got super lucky! A shoddy belay on a gri-gri is damned safe(r) compared to any friction device.... This^^ all sounds like a problem with belayers, not with belay devices.
No way. Tube devices are instruments of death. The bodies are stacked up like cordwood!
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jakedatc
Apr 14, 2011, 11:51 PM
Post #55 of 70
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jape wrote: spikeddem wrote: potreroed wrote: I'm glad you're OK. I'm going to get a lot of shit for saying this but I believe that if your belayer had been using a gri-gri this would not have happened. Gri-gris really do give you that extra edge of safety. I believe that in this case, you're likely correct. Although, I'd rather say that there is only a "good chance" that it may have been prevented. A gri-gri may not automatically grab a rope without any braking hand action (and should absolutely not be belayed with in such a way), but it at least does have a chance. That being said, I stick by my usual statement that if I don't trust someone to belay me with a tube-style device, then I wouldn't trust them to belay me with a gri-gri. Potreroed is right... Good chance is more closer to 100% than you prolly think. a gri-gri 2 will most definitely catch on a 9.9. I have used gris basically for as many years as they have been around on everything from A4 solos (have caught numerous 30-50' aid falls) to 5.13s (probably 100s-1000's of falls here) and really get siked out when someone wants to belay on a fig8 or atc....plaquettes/cinch/etc are a bit better brake but still not even close to the GG2. Sometimes it helps me send even on the safest routes because I am so gripped, but usually it is just a tweak in the back of my mind that makes me take b4 even fighting thru the hard moves. It doesn't help that I watched a near deck with a cinch @ the lode 2 years ago and also have seen several decks with other atc style devices, including a horrific one from the top of a climbing gym. What the heck are you doing working sport routes in the lode being belayed by a tube? Sounds like you got super lucky! A shoddy belay on a gri-gri is damned safe(r) compared to any friction device....
Cinch accident was 100% belayer error. Gri gri has had plenty of people deck etc and i'm sure gri gri2 will have plenty of accidents associated with it too..
good belay devices can't help bad belayers.
(This post was edited by jakedatc on Apr 14, 2011, 11:52 PM)
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carabiner96
Apr 15, 2011, 1:37 AM
Post #56 of 70
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jakedatc wrote: jape wrote: spikeddem wrote: potreroed wrote: I'm glad you're OK. I'm going to get a lot of shit for saying this but I believe that if your belayer had been using a gri-gri this would not have happened. Gri-gris really do give you that extra edge of safety. I believe that in this case, you're likely correct. Although, I'd rather say that there is only a "good chance" that it may have been prevented. A gri-gri may not automatically grab a rope without any braking hand action (and should absolutely not be belayed with in such a way), but it at least does have a chance. That being said, I stick by my usual statement that if I don't trust someone to belay me with a tube-style device, then I wouldn't trust them to belay me with a gri-gri. Potreroed is right... Good chance is more closer to 100% than you prolly think. a gri-gri 2 will most definitely catch on a 9.9. I have used gris basically for as many years as they have been around on everything from A4 solos (have caught numerous 30-50' aid falls) to 5.13s (probably 100s-1000's of falls here) and really get siked out when someone wants to belay on a fig8 or atc....plaquettes/cinch/etc are a bit better brake but still not even close to the GG2. Sometimes it helps me send even on the safest routes because I am so gripped, but usually it is just a tweak in the back of my mind that makes me take b4 even fighting thru the hard moves. It doesn't help that I watched a near deck with a cinch @ the lode 2 years ago and also have seen several decks with other atc style devices, including a horrific one from the top of a climbing gym. What the heck are you doing working sport routes in the lode being belayed by a tube? Sounds like you got super lucky! A shoddy belay on a gri-gri is damned safe(r) compared to any friction device.... Cinch accident was 100% belayer error. Gri gri has had plenty of people deck etc and i'm sure gri gri2 will have plenty of accidents associated with it too.. good belay devices can't help bad belayers.
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healyje
Apr 15, 2011, 1:49 AM
Post #57 of 70
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jape wrote: A shoddy belay on a gri-gri is damned safe(r) compared to any friction device....
I couldn't possibly disagree more - a shoddy belay with any device is a shoddy belay - if you could look at the number of people who are dropped annually by their belayer I would bet dollars to donuts in the vast majority of cases they were belaying with a grigri. And that could just have easily been the case here.
Anyone who thinks a device can make up for shoddy belaying is seriously deluding themselves.
(This post was edited by healyje on Apr 15, 2011, 1:50 AM)
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jape
Apr 15, 2011, 1:51 PM
Post #58 of 70
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jakedatc wrote: jape wrote: spikeddem wrote: potreroed wrote: I'm glad you're OK. I'm going to get a lot of shit for saying this but I believe that if your belayer had been using a gri-gri this would not have happened. Gri-gris really do give you that extra edge of safety. I believe that in this case, you're likely correct. Although, I'd rather say that there is only a "good chance" that it may have been prevented. A gri-gri may not automatically grab a rope without any braking hand action (and should absolutely not be belayed with in such a way), but it at least does have a chance. That being said, I stick by my usual statement that if I don't trust someone to belay me with a tube-style device, then I wouldn't trust them to belay me with a gri-gri. Potreroed is right... Good chance is more closer to 100% than you prolly think. a gri-gri 2 will most definitely catch on a 9.9. I have used gris basically for as many years as they have been around on everything from A4 solos (have caught numerous 30-50' aid falls) to 5.13s (probably 100s-1000's of falls here) and really get siked out when someone wants to belay on a fig8 or atc....plaquettes/cinch/etc are a bit better brake but still not even close to the GG2. Sometimes it helps me send even on the safest routes because I am so gripped, but usually it is just a tweak in the back of my mind that makes me take b4 even fighting thru the hard moves. It doesn't help that I watched a near deck with a cinch @ the lode 2 years ago and also have seen several decks with other atc style devices, including a horrific one from the top of a climbing gym. What the heck are you doing working sport routes in the lode being belayed by a tube? Sounds like you got super lucky! A shoddy belay on a gri-gri is damned safe(r) compared to any friction device.... Cinch accident was 100% belayer error. Gri gri has had plenty of people deck etc and i'm sure gri gri2 will have plenty of accidents associated with it too.. good belay devices can't help bad belayers.
No one really knows about the DS tragedy. We replicated a way that the cinch "unlocks" at certain angles when weighted and postulate that given the steepness of the wall and where the belayer may have stood that it's possible that the cinch went out of lock mode...
Kind of like "clam shelling" in this report, well worth a close look for several possible cinch failures...
http://www.caves.org/section/vertical/nh/51/Hang_Em_High_Final.pdf
Equivocation doesn't really work when cinchs have broken while lowering...generation 1, whatever, still, cinch is not as good as gg2...
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jape
Apr 15, 2011, 1:54 PM
Post #59 of 70
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healyje wrote: jape wrote: A shoddy belay on a gri-gri is damned safe(r) compared to any friction device.... I couldn't possibly disagree more - a shoddy belay with any device is a shoddy belay - if you could look at the number of people who are dropped annually by their belayer I would bet dollars to donuts in the vast majority of cases they were belaying with a grigri. And that could just have easily been the case here. Anyone who thinks a device can make up for shoddy belaying is seriously deluding themselves.
Way to read out of context. hey, I'll take a no hands catch on my gg2 and you take one with a tube, I will even bet you $10000.00 that my fall is "safe"(R)..I'll even fly out to OR....
Yer math is poor as well...
Takers?
Any1?
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jape
Apr 15, 2011, 1:56 PM
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jape wrote: healyje wrote: jape wrote: A shoddy belay on a gri-gri is damned safe(r) compared to any friction device.... I couldn't possibly disagree more - a shoddy belay with any device is a shoddy belay - if you could look at the number of people who are dropped annually by their belayer I would bet dollars to donuts in the vast majority of cases they were belaying with a grigri. And that could just have easily been the case here. Anyone who thinks a device can make up for shoddy belaying is seriously deluding themselves. Way to read out of context. hey, I'll take a no hands catch on my gg2 and you take one with a tube, I will even bet you $10000.00 that my fall is "safe"(R)..I'll even fly out to OR.... Yer math is poor as well... Takers? Any1?
Point being, OP would not have decked with a gg2, I think some yall need more clarification...I will even replicate that next time I'm at the lode.
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michael1245
Apr 15, 2011, 2:10 PM
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spikeddem wrote: He was belaying with a tube-style device that looked this, although it's possible it was a different model/brand.
sorry to hear about your accident. good luck with the recovery.
I checked your link to the device. I'm really not comfortable being belayed on ATCs anymore. I carry one for rappelling, but prefer to use a Grigri.
Of course, accidents happen with Grigri's too... but I just feel safer on them, at least while climbing.
good luck!
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jakedatc
Apr 15, 2011, 2:47 PM
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jape wrote: jakedatc wrote: jape wrote: spikeddem wrote: potreroed wrote: I'm glad you're OK. I'm going to get a lot of shit for saying this but I believe that if your belayer had been using a gri-gri this would not have happened. Gri-gris really do give you that extra edge of safety. I believe that in this case, you're likely correct. Although, I'd rather say that there is only a "good chance" that it may have been prevented. A gri-gri may not automatically grab a rope without any braking hand action (and should absolutely not be belayed with in such a way), but it at least does have a chance. That being said, I stick by my usual statement that if I don't trust someone to belay me with a tube-style device, then I wouldn't trust them to belay me with a gri-gri. Potreroed is right... Good chance is more closer to 100% than you prolly think. a gri-gri 2 will most definitely catch on a 9.9. I have used gris basically for as many years as they have been around on everything from A4 solos (have caught numerous 30-50' aid falls) to 5.13s (probably 100s-1000's of falls here) and really get siked out when someone wants to belay on a fig8 or atc....plaquettes/cinch/etc are a bit better brake but still not even close to the GG2. Sometimes it helps me send even on the safest routes because I am so gripped, but usually it is just a tweak in the back of my mind that makes me take b4 even fighting thru the hard moves. It doesn't help that I watched a near deck with a cinch @ the lode 2 years ago and also have seen several decks with other atc style devices, including a horrific one from the top of a climbing gym. What the heck are you doing working sport routes in the lode being belayed by a tube? Sounds like you got super lucky! A shoddy belay on a gri-gri is damned safe(r) compared to any friction device.... Cinch accident was 100% belayer error. Gri gri has had plenty of people deck etc and i'm sure gri gri2 will have plenty of accidents associated with it too.. good belay devices can't help bad belayers. No one really knows about the DS tragedy. We replicated a way that the cinch "unlocks" at certain angles when weighted and postulate that given the steepness of the wall and where the belayer may have stood that it's possible that the cinch went out of lock mode... Kind of like "clam shelling" in this report, well worth a close look for several possible cinch failures... http://www.caves.org/section/vertical/nh/51/Hang_Em_High_Final.pdf Equivocation doesn't really work when cinchs have broken while lowering...generation 1, whatever, still, cinch is not as good as gg2...
blah blah blah the guy had his hand on the cam when the guy fell and it did not lock. BELAYER ERROR aka FAIL
not sure what world you think you live in but that is pretty easy to figure out.
whatever.. totally RAD YO BRAHHHH! learn how to write coherently.
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j_ung
Apr 15, 2011, 3:25 PM
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jape wrote: healyje wrote: jape wrote: A shoddy belay on a gri-gri is damned safe(r) compared to any friction device.... I couldn't possibly disagree more - a shoddy belay with any device is a shoddy belay - if you could look at the number of people who are dropped annually by their belayer I would bet dollars to donuts in the vast majority of cases they were belaying with a grigri. And that could just have easily been the case here. Anyone who thinks a device can make up for shoddy belaying is seriously deluding themselves. Way to read out of context. hey, I'll take a no hands catch on my gg2 and you take one with a tube, I will even bet you $10000.00 that my fall is "safe"(R)..I'll even fly out to OR.... Yer math is poor as well... Takers? Any1?
Do you really not understand that Gri-gris also have failure modes, or are you being purposely obtuse?
healyje said it best. There's no substitute, including a Gri-gri2, for a competent belay. Incompetent belayers find a way to drop people every bit as often with Gri-gris as they do with ATCs and other tube-style devices. Competent belayers need nothing but a set of hips.
(This post was edited by j_ung on Apr 15, 2011, 3:27 PM)
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notapplicable
Apr 15, 2011, 8:47 PM
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jape wrote: ...(I) really get siked out when someone wants to belay on a fig8 or atc....usually it is just a tweak in the back of my mind that makes me take b4 even fighting thru the hard moves.
michael1245 wrote: I'm really not comfortable being belayed on ATCs anymore.
A couple interesting sentiments here. I'm curious if you guys understand that -
A. Feeling that way has no rational foundation.
B. The device is not belaying you, a person is.
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danabart
Apr 15, 2011, 10:33 PM
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As did many others here, I learned to belay with a hip belay. One nice thing I find about that (and certainly, this may not apply to everyone) was that it sure as hell made you intensely aware of keeping your brake hand on the rope at all times. If you let go, there was no illusion of security that would be given with a rope running through a device.
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cacalderon
Apr 16, 2011, 12:45 AM
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funny
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cacalderon
Apr 16, 2011, 12:50 AM
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good thing you are okay.. thanks for sharing..
interesting that you guys where using an ATC instead of a grigri at the motherlode where falls/hanging abound...
I'm sure you'll recover with time, but how is the dude that dropped you taking it ? you guys still climb together ??
(This post was edited by cacalderon on Apr 16, 2011, 12:58 AM)
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spikeddem
Feb 19, 2012, 6:14 AM
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cacalderon wrote: good thing you are okay.. thanks for sharing.. interesting that you guys where using an ATC instead of a grigri at the motherlode where falls/hanging abound... I'm sure you'll recover with time, but how is the dude that dropped you taking it ? you guys still climb together ??
I've moved out of state, but I'd climb with that guy any day of the week still.
Here's an update on my mental progress:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2htUpUyryfk
It takes consistent to work to fight back to getting into a healthy, positive mental state after I take time off, but it's doable. I was scared during that fall (the one i just linked), but not terrified. Certainly not anymore scared than I would have been before my accident.
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sungam
Feb 19, 2012, 9:00 AM
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spikeddem wrote: cacalderon wrote: good thing you are okay.. thanks for sharing.. interesting that you guys where using an ATC instead of a grigri at the motherlode where falls/hanging abound... I'm sure you'll recover with time, but how is the dude that dropped you taking it ? you guys still climb together ?? I've moved out of state, but I'd climb with that guy any day of the week still. Here's an update on my mental progress: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2htUpUyryfk It takes consistent to work to fight back to getting into a healthy, positive mental state after I take time off, but it's doable. I was scared during that fall (the one i just linked), but not terrified. Certainly not anymore scared than I would have been before my accident.
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