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bandycoot
Aug 20, 2011, 4:53 PM
Post #51 of 66
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healyje wrote: Fun is not a word I would ever use in association with rappelling and my take on those who do is they are still novices and inexperienced in a variety of aspects that constitute a 'seasoned' climber. Bwahahaha! I must be a novice and inexperienced climber then! I'm sorry, but once you reach a certain level of competence, fun and safe are not mutually exclusive. I simul rap somewhat regularly with very competent partners, and we have a blast doing it. Mo fun mo betta! Ladyscarlett, your posts are hilarious. Josh
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notapplicable
Aug 20, 2011, 5:20 PM
Post #52 of 66
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Guran wrote: Right, trying out some new and fancy rappell trick just when your tired, cold and scared is a recipie for disaster. Couldn't agree more. Still I fail to see any real potential for disaster with the stone knot variant. That is apart from the ones inherit in rappelling in general. After all it is just two climbers rapping a single line each. The load on the anchor is doubled, of course but if THAT is an issue I wouldn't rap normally either without a back up. Now there might be better (safer, more efficient) ways to speed up a long rappell. There definitely are worse ways. I'd rather see climbers simul-rap with a stone knot than skipping knotted ends and back up prussiks for example... The stone knot is hardly a cure all, hell, it's hardly even relevant to climbing discussions because it cannot be used by a two man team.
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sherpa79
Aug 21, 2011, 1:02 AM
Post #53 of 66
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mbrd wrote: the problem with the rig isn't its reliability- indeed, correctly rigged, this thing looks almost bombproof. the problem is that it requires correct rigging, ostensibly to be applied under some duress if the need for speed were crucial; precisely when things have a tendency to go sideways- in the rigging stages. also, something sherpa79 said made me a little uneasy. i may have misinterpreted his meaning, but it seemed like he was suggesting that a simul rap was subjected only to the static weight of two climbers. rappelling is far from static, and much like toprope falls, raps generate significantly more dynamic moments than most folks seem to intuit. this brings us back to guran's suggestion that the "load on the anchor is doubled". true, but doubling a dynamic load is a lot more significant of a leap than doubling a static load. by the way, there are plenty of places where, and conditions under which, one can't toss tails for a rappel if they are knotted; similarly, rigging prussik backups for rappels is completely outside of my experience, especially if a party is trying to save time. repeatedly applying prussiks would burn way more time than checking each others' raps, and going one by one, on a simple double line rig that we are all familiar with, or a choked single line rap with a pull line, that many of us are familiar with. of course, i did mention that i am a stick in the mud, right? If you can't rig it correctly you shouldn't do it. And I was more referring to relative loads. I'm aware that we always exert slightly more than truly static weight. My point was only that if you have an anchor that you are willing to belay a leader OR a second on you shouldn't hesitate to use is to simul-rap. If you can't toss tails, you can always take the rope with you. It's actually faster to do this with two people because you are only resposible for flaking and stowing half of the rope that your team is using. Also, applying simple wraps to the rope and throwing a biner on your leg loog takes virtually no time at all. If you are burning all the time that you would save by simul-rapping here in the first place, again, you shouldn't be doing it. And actually, a rap backup isn't something I use frequently at all, but it, like the simulrap, has it's place. Again, I don't advocate the simul-rap for every occassion, but it does have it's place, and I maintain it isn't unsafe if you know what you're doing.
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mbrd
Aug 21, 2011, 2:50 AM
Post #54 of 66
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when you're right you're right- i do believe that we have crossed the threshold of "reasons not to do what could be sketchy" into, "reasonable preference to do what one is comfortable with". and that's kind of the bottom line- the most efficient system is the fastest, cleanest system that everyone involved understands, can employ, and can service. i am definitely in agreement on the utility of "taking the rope with you if you can't toss the tails". i have been looked at by climbers like i was from another planet when i have done this, and at the same time some military and le guys have asked, "wait, you guys don't always do that?" of course, i have also had cops remark that as climbers, we were all crazy. i've curtly pointed out that, as climbers, we are neither required to carry guns, nor likely to need to shoot back. it's all a matter of perspective...
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sherpa79
Aug 22, 2011, 12:05 AM
Post #55 of 66
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mbrd wrote: i do believe that we have crossed the threshold of "reasons not to do what could be sketchy" into, "reasonable preference to do what one is comfortable with". and that's kind of the bottom line- the most efficient system is the fastest, cleanest system that everyone involved understands, can employ, and can service. That's pretty much what most climbing arguments come down to I think. Put even more economically but that annonymous wise man, "It Depends."
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Guran
Aug 22, 2011, 7:27 AM
Post #56 of 66
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mbrd wrote: similarly, rigging prussik backups for rappels is completely outside of my experience, especially if a party is trying to save time. Really? That is one precaution I definitely would not recommend skipping while tired, stressed and hungry. Unless someone is ready with a fireman's that is. Ok, enough arguing. Here is how i would deal (and have dealt) with a long rappell with more than one team to save some time. (Note, no simul raps required. And no I do not consider myself a genius because of this.) If you have two teams climbing on singles naturally the greatest time saver is to combine the ropes. (duh) Most teams doing routes involving long rappell descents will already have doubles or a single/pull line combo though. Then do like this. First man raps as usual (with prussik back up). Once he's down he is "station manager", responsible for securing everyone else with a fireman's AND to check everyones tether. Second man brings the next rope, rigging the next rap as soon as he can, goes down it immediately and stands prepared to give everybody else a fireman's and check tethers on the next station. All other climbers except the last person proceeds down the next rope as soon as possible. When the last climber arrives he and the "station manager" pulls the rope, flakes it and brings it down to the next station repeating the process. The first climber to arrive at a station is always the last one to leave it. (CF:s and missunderstandings about how others are tied into the anchor being a too common cause of accidents)
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ladyscarlett
Aug 23, 2011, 8:13 AM
Post #57 of 66
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well yes... but if you're not right next to them during the rap, how do you do the side by side flask swap? I hear we get kewl points for that move, and a prize if we can include action shots to accompany third party witness reports.... cheers LS
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healyje
Aug 23, 2011, 8:26 AM
Post #58 of 66
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Gotta say that all sounds like a complete clusterf#ck and accident just waiting to happen. You're talking different parties with potentially very different habits who may or may not know your drill. Overall it still sounds more like a situation to be avoided at all cost. It would take some pretty serious lightning / weather to make me join such a conga line. We just had a only-one-loop-clipped rappelling fatality at our crag a couple of weeks ago - decidedly un-fun in every respect.
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Guran
Aug 23, 2011, 1:18 PM
Post #59 of 66
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healyje wrote: Gotta say that all sounds like a complete clusterf#ck and accident just waiting to happen. You're talking different parties with potentially very different habits who may or may not know your drill. Overall it still sounds more like a situation to be avoided at all cost. It would take some pretty serious lightning / weather to make me join such a conga line. We just had a only-one-loop-clipped rappelling fatality at our crag a couple of weeks ago - decidedly un-fun in every respect. Sorry about the accident. Too common unfortunately. :( Ive got to say that when I re-read my post it does come out a lot more clusterfucky than it really is. What it really boils down to is two things: 1) Pulling and reordering ropes and arranging rappell anchors eats far more time than you can save doing any kind of double rappell. Therefor using both parties ropes is a better (not to mention safer) time saver than a simul-rap. 2) When rappell stations get crowded (no matter if you cooperate between teams or not) there is an increased risk that someone clips the wrong loop. The best way to avoid this is if the first person to arrive at a rappell anchor is the last person to leave. This is a good rule even for a two man team btw. There has been too many accidents where one climber makes a larks head around a tree and another clips the wrong loop. If that second person had left first he would have been safe. So don't overdo it. If you feel it's a stupid conga line by all means rappell as usual. I do think, however, that the "conga line" is both faster and safer than a simul-rap and my only intention in posting that was to provide a better alternative to simul rapping. Not posting a general how-to-rap-advice. And even if you feel the rest of my post is theoretical forum wankery, please make "first to arrive, last to leave" a part of your rappell routine.
(This post was edited by Guran on Aug 23, 2011, 3:18 PM)
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markc
Aug 23, 2011, 2:35 PM
Post #60 of 66
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Guran wrote: Come to think about it, the only time simul-rapping would save more than marginal time is if there are more than two climbers. A party of four might save some time on a long rapell by going two at a time. This was the case the only time I've simul-rappelled. We joined ropes with the party behind us after climbing Royal Arches. We put the heavier climber on the strand opposite the knot, and were very careful in communicating transitions. It went smoothly, and I'd do the same under similar circumstances. At shorter crags, I don't see that the limited amount of time saved is worth the increased risk.
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bearbreeder
Aug 23, 2011, 4:05 PM
Post #61 of 66
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the best is when climbers simul rappel every route at a single pitch crag to look cool ... without prussics of course
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ladyscarlett
Aug 23, 2011, 6:00 PM
Post #62 of 66
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bearbreeder wrote: the best is when climbers simul rappel every route at a single pitch crag to look cool ... without prussics of course YES! Everytime I've seen it the climbers have beers in hand...I think it must help with the weight differential... hee hee Soooo kewl LS
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sherpa79
Aug 29, 2011, 11:59 PM
Post #63 of 66
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ladyscarlett wrote: well yes... but if you're not right next to them during the rap, how do you do the side by side flask swap? I hear we get kewl points for that move, and a prize if we can include action shots to accompany third party witness reports.... cheers LS That's EASY. It's called the "relay". You take turns rapping faster than the other while progressing down the cliff. Hand off at the pass and you'll naturally slow down whilst taking a swig. When your partner passes hand off again. Enjoy the warmth in your belly and rap a little faster to get another snort.
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cragmasterp
Aug 30, 2011, 2:12 AM
Post #64 of 66
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I almost always use this method when I am at Stone Mountain NC, on multi-pitch slab. Saves a lot of time, so you can climb more routes.
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climbingtrash
Aug 30, 2011, 2:18 AM
Post #65 of 66
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cragmasterp wrote: I almost always use this method when I am at Stone Mountain NC, on multi-pitch slab. Saves a lot of time, so you can climb more routes. Yore gunna DIE...
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swoopee
Aug 30, 2011, 9:48 PM
Post #66 of 66
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climbingtrash wrote: cragmasterp wrote: I almost always use this method when I am at Stone Mountain NC, on multi-pitch slab. Saves a lot of time, so you can climb more routes. Yore gunna DIE... I've never tried it, but rapping off Stone Mountain is such a pain it's almost tempting to walk off, so it might be worth a try.
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