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aarong
May 5, 2003, 9:28 PM
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OK OK. Now I've got a story that involves deliberately leaving gear - and not just quickdraws but traditional gear - loads of it! A haul bag full of it and how it was "cleaned." This is a TRUE story that happened about 3 years ago - names have been removed to protect those involved.
A climber stashes a haul bag full of gear on a popular big-wall in Rocky Mtn. National Park with the intention of returning to climb the wall later. He does this so he doesn't have to lug his gear up several miles of hiking trail or jug up hundreds of feet with all his stuff each time he wants to climb the wall.
A few good ole boys from the lowlands find themselves on the very ledge where the haul-bag rests and a gold mine is discovered! Dozens of cams, biners, pins, stoppers, hooks, slings, and a portaledge sits all alone - not a trace of a climber around - it's the dead of winter! Did the climber die and leave his gear? Did the climber just give up climbing and decide to abandon his stuff? Why would someone leave so much gear behind? Certainly the climber who left this didn't trust other climbers to leave it alone??!!
"Free gear!" the lowlanders thought. All they had to do was load up their packs and head home - never to be heard from again.
A few weeks later, the lowlanders are at home still dividing up the new-found gear amongst themselves - still showing it off to their friends - when they get a phone call. It's the guy. The guy whose gear they snagged and he wants his stuff back - he demands it back.
A few days go by and a National Park Ranger calls - he orders them to return the stuff or charges will be pressed, he says.
Charges pressed? By the Feds?
The lowlanders returned the gear. Not even a single biner was kept - in fact they ended up spending over a hundred bucks in shipping expenses to mail the gear.
So - here we have a larger theft - and yes, it was a theft. But who was right? Who was wrong? What are the ethics here - was it ok for the climber to leave behind his gear - for several months and expect no one to touch it? Was it any more right for the lowlanders to take the gear?
This speaks to the "sport-climbers-suck-becasue-they-leave-draws" crowd....it's not just a sport climbing thing - climbers of all styles and types have left gear: fixed lines on big-walls, oxygen bottles on high-altitude climbs, slings around boulders, quickdraws, even fixed cams and stoppers on hard trad climbs -
climbers who steal know when they are stealing. Don't pretend that you don't.
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brianinslc
May 5, 2003, 9:47 PM
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[quote="jt512 I agree. And where I sport climb -- and I suspect where you sport climb (if you do) -- the deal is this:
>1. There is little or no public.
American Fork, Little Mill Campground. See climbing restrictions there. Ditto read the Access Fund newsletter.
>2. The public doesn't mind.
See above. Fixed anchor ban? Do a web search.
or
>3. Leaving the draws up is an insignificant problem compared with the real impact of sport climbing.
>WRT the last point, it is BS that the public doesn't mind the barking dogs, screaming teenagers, mass quantities of chalk, bolts, etc., but then goes berserk when 10 draws are left on some guys 5.13c project overnight.
Yeah, but. Seeing folks and their ilk is different than seeing no folks, and the stuff they've abandoned. How would you expect a non climber to know why you left your gear?
>I'll say it again, first the nice way: you guys are being hypothetical, and next the not-so-nice way: you are talking out of your asses.
Maybe part of the problem is that when you choose to communicate, you have to be "not so nice" to get your point across. Kind of dovetails into expecting folks to respect you and your abandonded property, rather than asking or hoping for respect?
>Why don't you liberate the bolts, too, while you're at it?
In some locations, I have liberated bolts. Gee, remember all that boulder canyon spray? Eeek.
Sometimes there are inapproapriate bolts. Sometimes they get removed or relocated.
Legally speaking, what would prevent the "public" from removing bolts? I'd say nothing. Thats why its important to minimize impact.
>Now you are contradicting yourself. If the draws shouldn't be left up because they are unsightly, then what help will leaving a note be -- just some litter to "liberate."
Naw, nice to know what the plan is. If the note read, "please leave this rock climbing gear in place, as I'll be back tomorrow to hopefully finish my attempt on this route. Thanks!". Then, I'd think you could argue stealing versus clean up. Eh? Better solution than expecting folks to respect you, even if you haven't earned their respect.
>But more often not very visible, and when it is, a handful of draws left up is not the access issue.
True, in some locations, only climbers frequent. 'Round here, Hell Cave, for instance. Or that big cave in Maple (ugh, memory). Where the rock is so overhanging, that as a public service folks have hung draws attached by rapides to the bolts, as a community service for climbers. Not easily booty-able to be sure! But, unfortunately, shootable.
And, shiny hangers in Utah open public lands are gettin' damaged by gunfire because folks can see them. So, if the hangers and bolts are painted camo to reduce visability and non climber impact, and you left a draw, you're begging for target practise (ok, a stretch but really, bolts in Utah have been shot at and hit).
Climber's rights on public land don't usually trump the general public's, especially when it boils down to impact. Fixed anchors are impact. Draws are worse. Makes sense to try to minimize impact.
Where do I sports climb? Massacre, City of Rocks, Uinta's, American Fork, Big and Little Cottonwood Canyon, St. George, Red Rocks, Smith Rocks, Leavenworth, Index, New River Gorge, Shelf Road, Boulder, Wall Street, Owens River Gorge, Cougar Crag, Back of the Lake, Grassy, Seward Highway, Gros Ventre Shield, Wild Iris, Mount Lemmon, Pinnacles, Heuco Tanks, Enchanted Rock, Barretts, Revenue Spires....to name a few...
Brian in SLC
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cedk
May 5, 2003, 10:05 PM
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I don't understand why everyone wants a note or an explanation for project draws. It's a sport crag they're hanging on a hard line. Isn't it obvious that they're project draws? Yeah. Actually it is.
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tt
May 5, 2003, 11:01 PM
Post #154 of 177
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In reply to: I did a route at Seneca Rocks -- Cottonmouth, I think -- a number of years ago and came across an overcamed Metolius unit. When I rapped off, a guy offered me $10 bucks to buy his own piece back! No way -- I've been there myself too many times.
Just curious--does your post mean:
"no way" you'll give him your booty
or
"no way" you'll take the money, but will give it right back to him?
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maypop
May 5, 2003, 11:28 PM
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I gave him his gear back, no "booty fee" required. Like I said ... we've all been there, or will be soon enough.
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tt
May 5, 2003, 11:34 PM
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In reply to: I gave him his gear back, no "booty fee" required. Like I said ... we've all been there, or will be soon enough.
Well I'm personally glad you gave it back to him--after reading this crazy thread I could imagine:
JoeTRAD: "Booty is booty, you lose it, I clean it, it's mine. I've been there too, where I lost my stuff, and now it's your turn to lose some-sucka!!!"
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climberpunk
May 5, 2003, 11:45 PM
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ok several things: One: TAKING ANYTHING THAT ISNT YOURS IS BAD. that doesnt matter where it is, unless its in a dumpster or something, or clearly litter.
im not a sport climber, and i realize the ethics are different there, but whenever ive gone outdoors, ive always tried to have as little of an impact as possible. Of course thats just because im a hippie, but still, thats my view. I have to say, i think that leaving gear is bad too. It doesnt justify stealing it by any means, but i think that you do forfit some of your rights to indignation by leaving it there. its not that hard to clean your route when you're done, and if its really THAT hard to clip them, and you can get to the top anchors by a)another route, or b) a path, than rapp down and place them. If climbing the proj. is the only way to put up QDs then just realize that ur taking a risk in this crazy f'd up world.
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alpnclmbr1
May 5, 2003, 11:57 PM
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In reply to: OK OK. Now I've got a story that involves deliberately leaving gear - and not just quickdraws but traditional gear - loads of it! A haul bag full of it and how it was "cleaned." This is a TRUE story that happened about 3 years ago - names have been removed to protect those involved.
Assuming we are talking about the same incidence. (twins +1) Actually they didn't return everything, and it took three months for them to return what they did. Also one of the three died later that year.
As far as the rest of this thread, I can't believe it is even an issue.
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jt512
May 6, 2003, 3:36 AM
Post #159 of 177
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In reply to: In reply to: >Why don't you liberate the bolts, too, while you're at it? In some locations, I have liberated bolts.
Why just some locations, Brian?
In reply to: Sometimes there are inapproapriate bolts. Sometimes they get removed or relocated.
So, some bolts are ok, but some quickdraws are not? Why is that? There are sport crags where nobody gives a flying fuck whether there are draws up. I'm guessing at those same places there are people, on the other hand, who don't think there should be any bolts. You are beng irrational and arbitrary.
In reply to: Legally speaking, what would prevent the "public" from removing bolts? I'd say nothing. Thats why its important to minimize impact.
You miss my point. You are being a hypocritical. The ten frickin draws up on the hard project make negligible impact compared with the 1000 bolts at the crag. The draws are a non-issue anywhere I've ever climbed. If they really are an issue somewhere, then don't leave draws up THERE, but at most sport crags leaving draws up is not an issue. Leaving draws up will not get a crag closed down. Leaving draws up will not piss off anybody who actually visits the crag, be they the sport climbers or other recreational users. The only people that might get pissed off are a handful of hyporcritical, holier-than-thou trad climbers. Christ, I hear it all the time: trad climber shows up at the sport crag and does nothing but bitch about sport climbing. Well, dude, it's just an hour's drive to J Tree.
In reply to: In reply to: >Now you are contradicting yourself. If the draws shouldn't be left up because they are unsightly, then what help will leaving a note be -- just some litter to "liberate." Naw, nice to know what the plan is. If the note read, "please leave this rock climbing gear in place, as I'll be back tomorrow to hopefully finish my attempt on this route. Thanks!". Then, I'd think you could argue stealing versus clean up. Eh? Better solution than expecting folks to respect you, even if you haven't earned their respect.
What!? Now you're the niceness police? I'd barf if I read a note like that, but I wouldn't steal the draws with or without a note.
In reply to: In reply to: >But more often not very visible, and when it is, a handful of draws left up is not the access issue. True, in some locations, only climbers frequent.
Hallelujah! Somebody is starting to get it.
In reply to: Where do I sports climb?
It's sport climb! Who is your partner, David Kastrup?
-Jay
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alpinestylist
May 6, 2003, 3:09 PM
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Just for clarity or confusion, here goes...
I live, and have lived for 15 years in Estes Park. That is where the Colorado bigwall mentioned by AArong and alpneclmbr1 is. It is called the Diamond. I am a pretty active climber, and this was kind of a big story around here a few years ago.
Climber 1 hauls his crap upto the Diamond and starts climbing. Gets bouted for whatever reason, weather/wuss whatever...
HE BAILS AND LEAVES HIS PIG FIXED FOR OVER A SEASON!!!
We don't take kindly to chongostyle here in RMNP.
Anyway, dude outright bailed, he said he intended to come back THE NEXT SEASON and clean his crap.
BOOTY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The fellows who cleaned/bootied/stole the gear asked the rangers about it first (that is how they knew who took it). Rangers didn't know. Dudes bootied. Bailer returns cries, calls feds/sheriff whoever will listen. I think in time the bootiers returned the booty (don't know the ins and outs of the return)
This seems to be a clear cut case of booty on the mountain. Some dude shows up a year later and cry's.
If someone knows personally this story please share, that is just the local version of those events.
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alpnclmbr1
May 6, 2003, 5:49 PM
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RE: stolen haul bag
The bag was not left for a season. The guy that left it was a estes local. I don't rememeber the exact scenario (solo winter ascent?)of why the bag was left except that an injury and self rescue was involved. Most of my memories regarding the incidant involved what he went through to get his gear back.
If you want to ask him yourself, his name is Mark.
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aarong
May 6, 2003, 6:14 PM
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I didn't want to rehash old wounds - I just wanted to use the story as an example of abandoned gear - but I guess the dirt is in the details.
The point really was to break down the generalizations being made against "sport climbers" and to show that lessons were learned on both sides.
I have been on both sides of the issue and I still think that taking draws is stealing.
I have a friend (a different friend from the previously mentioned 3) - who decided to "clean" a bunch of draws at Rifle from one of the main caves (Skull cave maybe?). This was years 8+ years ago.
In fact, at the time, he didn't know any better - it was a rainy day and he thought he'd practice his aid skills aiding out the roof and then cleaning the draws.
When myself and the rest of his friends found out what he had done we told him that they were on project routes and not to be stolen. He felt bad and it was the last time it happened.
If you feel like you are doing a service to the other user groups who are bothered by hanging draws and want to remove them - that doesn't automatically entitle you to keep them. That's really just making the statement that you are an asshole-climber who takes draws and can't be trusted.
Still - the bottom line to all this is you can't trust other people with your stuff - I know I won't leave draws on anything else again. And not because I feel others would be offended but because Okla. is rampant with rapellers and climbers who love to steal anything that's not bolted down - and even some things that are. Hell, we can't even keep bolt hangers on half the routes in this state! But that's another story.
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rckjk
May 6, 2003, 6:36 PM
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Well for those of you who think it's cool to steal gear I sure hope I never see you or climb with you. You are just wrong. Did you buy it? If not then it's stealing. If it's not yours then leave the gear there.
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winkwinklambonini
May 6, 2003, 8:40 PM
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I would have cleaned them and left them at the base just to fck with him. Sport climbers have different rules, and i don't know what they are, but I do know pinkpointing is for the gay.
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brianinslc
May 6, 2003, 11:42 PM
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Jay sed "Why just some locations, Brian?"
See below.
In reply to: Sometimes there are inapproapriate bolts. Sometimes they get removed or relocated.
Jay sed: "So, some bolts are ok, but some quickdraws are not? Why is that? There are sport crags where nobody gives a flying f___ whether there are draws up. I'm guessing at those same places there are people, on the other hand, who don't think there should be any bolts. You are beng irrational and arbitrary."
Repeat the above, whilst looking in the mirror (chuckle).
Jay sed: "You miss my point. You are being a hypocritical. The ten frickin draws up on the hard project make negligible impact compared with the 1000 bolts at the crag."
Hmmm...draws swinging in the breeze are much more visible than well painted bolt hangers. Its a visual impact.
See Access Fund most endangered crags. Some of us are still bummed that the Twin Sisters area in the City of Rocks is still closed to climbing. Why? Visual impact. Ugh.
And, bolting ban within sight of the road.
Jay sed: "The draws are a non-issue anywhere I've ever climbed."
Hmmm....this thread is about draws ripped at Shelf Road. Ever climbed there?
Have you been to sports areas in several states? I've sport climbed in WA, ID, OR, CA, NV, WY, CO, AZ, WV, NY, VT, NH, AK, TN and three provinces in Canada. Maybe your comments only apply to your backyard?
Can't quite recall who made a comment about someone speakin' out their arse...(har har)...
Jay finally sees the light and sez: "If they really are an issue somewhere, then don't leave draws up THERE"
Bingo!
Jay sed: "The only people that might get pissed off are a handful of hyporcritical, holier-than-thou trad climbers."
Or bird watchers, Sierra Clubbers, hikers, trail runners, dirt munchin' tree huggers...
Jay sed: "I hear it all the time: trad climber shows up at the sport crag and does nothing but bitch about sport climbing. Well, dude, it's just an hour's drive to J Tree."
Wish I had that kinda time, but, if I did, I'd just go climbing...
Jay sed: "I'd barf if I read a note like that"
You'd be welcome to use my Compazine suppositories...
Jay exclaimed; "Hallelujah! Somebody is starting to get it."
Common ground. There we go.
Brian in SLC
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alexinmilton
May 7, 2003, 1:06 AM
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I stopped reading after the first few pages of the same reply.....BUT....
Why hasn't anyone dissagreed with using locktight? I personally would be pissed to find gear glued to a climb.
Who really wants to climb on it without knowing what its been through? And wouldn't it be easier to remove your gear daily then have to glue and then cut through quick links?
Just my 2 cents,
Alex
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renhoek
May 7, 2003, 1:14 AM
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i dont climb sport sadly im still in the gym but even still taking someone else QDs especially if theres a whole bunch of them on a run makes you a complete and total deuche bag with bad karma to boot. a single draw lying on the ground sure thats booty cause someone dropped it and probly didnt realize sucks for them but a whole bunch of draws still in the bolts to me says work in progress and dont take me. theft is really uncool and if i had some of my sh*t jacked id be pissed as all sh*t i dont care if the person was too lazy to clean them or not the draws are clearly not forgotten
RANDOM SINGLE draw on ground = booty
WHOLE BUNCH (as in a rack) of gear on ground = not booty
whole bunch of draws ON WALL = not yours for the taking, will become major deuche if you do take it
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jt512
May 7, 2003, 3:11 AM
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In reply to: You are beng irrational and arbitrary." Repeat the above, whilst looking in the mirror (chuckle).
Unsupported assertion. Reason #1 that you are a waste of time.
In reply to: Jay sed: "You miss my point. You are being a hypocritical. The ten frickin draws up on the hard project make negligible impact compared with the 1000 bolts at the crag." Hmmm...draws swinging in the breeze are much more visible than well painted bolt hangers. Its a visual impact.
B-llshiit at the majority of crags for all the reasons I've stated.
In reply to: Jay sed: "The draws are a non-issue anywhere I've ever climbed." Hmmm....this thread is about draws ripped at Shelf Road. Ever climbed there?
I've already answered that question, and this thread is no longer just about Shelf Road. Can't you even keep your own argument straight? You've given examples throughout this thread from other areas.
Redundancy and inconsistency. Reasons #2 and #3 that you are a waste of time.
In reply to: Have you been to sports areas in several states?
Yes, but that doesn't matter, right, because this discussion is about Shelf Road, according to what you said just above. Christ, at least argue consistently within a post, if you can't do so between posts.
In reply to: I've sport climbed in WA, ID, OR, CA, NV, WY, CO, AZ, WV, NY, VT, NH, AK, TN and three provinces in Canada. Maybe your comments only apply to your backyard?
Maybe, like I said 7 pages earler that this is a non-issue everywhere I climb.
In reply to: Jay finally sees the light and sez: "If they really are an issue somewhere, then don't leave draws up THERE
I finally see the light? I said words to that effect back on page 4. Do try and a little harder to keep up. What I am opposed to is the generalization that you and others have been making that draws shouldn't be left up on hard projects. As I've said repeatedly, if it is an issue at a particular crag, don't do it, but most places it is no issue at all.
Selective quoting. Reason #4 that you are a waste of time.
In reply to: Jay sed: "The only people that might get pissed off are a handful of hyporcritical, holier-than-thou trad climbers." Or bird watchers, Sierra Clubbers, hikers, trail runners, dirt munchin' tree huggers...
You're a waste of fucking time Brian. You make unsupported accusations, inconsistent arguments, you either can't remember or haven't read what was written in previous posts, and you quote out of context. Get it together or you'll end up in more killfiles than Ken Cline.
-Jay
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salami
May 7, 2003, 6:03 AM
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In reply to: Why hasn't anyone dissagreed with using locktight? I personally would be pissed to find gear glued to a climb. Alex
There are a few types of locktite, I was referring to the one that would be hard to remove with just your fingers, but easily removed with a wrench. Thus making it harder for some one to steal them.
I have seen other climbers do this. If you don't trust their gear, clip your draws into the bolt next to theirs. I have had to do this in the past.
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1269topper
May 7, 2003, 6:12 AM
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jt512 YOUR A REAL JOKE MAN!
YOUR COMMENTS ARE REALLY IGNORNAT
YOU NEED TO SPEND MORE TIME CLIMBING THEN PLAYING WITH YOUR MOUSE.
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brianinslc
May 7, 2003, 5:43 PM
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Jay spews, rather uninspiringly: "You're a waste of f___ time Brian. You make unsupported accusations, inconsistent arguments, you either can't remember or haven't read what was written in previous posts, and you quote out of context. Get it together or you'll end up in more killfiles than Ken Cline.
-Jay
Feel free to kill file me then. Sounds like no loss to you.
This thread is soooo long, I'll make no attempt to keep up. And you're right, I can't remember (a problem not getting any better...)...
So here it is for me.
Please consider not leaving draws hanging up on sport(s) routes. Solves both the problem about having to worry about them gettin' ripped off, and the visual pollution that they "may" create. Climbers should try harder to minimize their impact.
Sport climbing on public land is not a right, its a privledge. A privledge we could all lose if we don't make some attempt at minimizing our impact. I'm not some "holier-than-thou trad climber". I sport climb too. And quite like it.
The visual effects of sport climbing at areas like Wall Street out of Moab have in particular been responsible for land managers (in this case Canyonland National Park) making the addition of fixed anchors illegal.
Think. Be a pro active and positive contributor to the bigger picture of climbing. So some of us can continue to enjoy it, rather than those who are in it for the short haul and will just move on to the latest X-games "extreme sport".
The lack of ability to have an inspiring dialog related to climbing, ethics, style and impact is perhaps telling. I hope folks who can't inspire at least give something back, like being a member of the Access Fund, contributing to the ASCA, or mentoring some junior climber.
Have a nice day!
Brian in SLC
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brianinslc
May 7, 2003, 5:49 PM
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In reply to: I stopped reading after the first few pages of the same reply.....BUT.... Why hasn't anyone dissagreed with using locktight? I personally would be pissed to find gear glued to a climb. Who really wants to climb on it without knowing what its been through? And wouldn't it be easier to remove your gear daily then have to glue and then cut through quick links? Just my 2 cents, Alex
Loctite...
There are a couple of grades of loctite out there. The most commonly used type is easily defeated with a little elbow grease and a wrench. The other usually degrades with the application of a little heat (ie, a bic lighter).
I think the "blue" loctite is nice for securing rapides where a temp change over time might loosen them and make them easier to be casually ripped off. But, easy to remove with a wrench, which not all folks carry.
Not a bad idea to use loctite especially on top anchors that can be accessed by not climbing the route. I'd prefer that over using one of them chain links you smash down which becomes a tad more permanent and hence harder to remove and replace if need be.
FWIW...
Brian in SLC
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wildwombat
May 7, 2003, 6:40 PM
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In reply to: Here's a hint: If you're going to pose, pad your profile. A quick look at your ascents reveals that you've climbed nothing harder than 5.10b. Hell, you failed to onsight Mickey Goes to Vegas, a 5.9 at Jacks Canyon, the sport crag with the most padded rattings on Earth. You've never had a sport project, much less left draws up on one overnight or slept at the base of the route to keep them from being stolen. You're talking out of your ass. -Jay
Sitting around the table the other day with a couple of awesome climbers, including a guidebook author and a guy who onsight solo'd an El Cap route in a day (Tangerine Trip), a friend of mine who is happy to climb mid-10s in the gym was telling stories about his own more modest accomplishments. Not one of them felt like they had to cut him down, or make disparaging comments. I guess they were cool enough to understand that people can have interesting things to say, and meaningful experiences no matter what their climbing and fitness level.
Actually, I think this has been a pretty interesting conversation, and I'd weigh in, but I haven't gotten around to padding my profile yet. :wink:
T
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brianinslc
May 7, 2003, 9:07 PM
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In reply to: Sitting around the table the other day with a couple of awesome climbers, including a guidebook author and a guy who onsight solo'd an El Cap route in a day (Tangerine Trip), a friend of mine who is happy to climb mid-10s in the gym was telling stories about his own more modest accomplishments. Not one of them felt like they had to cut him down, or make disparaging comments. I guess they were cool enough to understand that people can have interesting things to say, and meaningful experiences no matter what their climbing and fitness level. Actually, I think this has been a pretty interesting conversation, and I'd weigh in, but I haven't gotten around to padding my profile yet. :wink: T
Hey, T!
Thank you and yers, btw (click, snap, click, snap, woohooo!). I'm in touch with genius, to be sure.
Hope none of this spray gets on ya...
Get that other T over on the trivia page. Competition keeps me sharp...
Best wishes...
Brian in SLC
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