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keinangst
Aug 21, 2003, 8:51 PM
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Tomorrow I'm going sport climbing for the first time (yippeee!). I'll be with folks that know the routine, but I just want to get a heads-up on how to descend from a route with chains/rings at the top. Can someone describe it in a step-by-step manner?
My understanding so far: hanging from the top draw, you tie off to the rings or chains using a couple draws or slings. Then you pull the rope up from the belayer and feed it through the rings. When you have the rope at about the halway point, you affix your rap device to your harness and the rope, unclip from the draws/slings you placed, and rap down (oversimplified)
Part two of the question is: What if you are stuck at the crux? Can you get down and still retrieve all your gear? It doesn't seem safe to lower from 1 draw and pull the rest of the gear below it...
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 21, 2003, 9:28 PM
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In reply to: descend from a route with chains/rings at the top. Can someone describe it in a step-by-step manner? My understanding so far: hanging from the top draw, you tie off to the rings or chains using a couple draws or slings. Then you pull the rope up from the belayer and feed it through the rings. When you have the rope at about the halway point, you affix your rap device to your harness and the rope, unclip from the draws/slings you placed, and rap down (oversimplified) Part two of the question is: What if you are stuck at the crux? Can you get down and still retrieve all your gear? It doesn't seem safe to lower from 1 draw and pull the rest of the gear below it...
2. clip a long draw to the other bolt, clip to belay loop
3. place a long draw on the first bolt and clip to harness. "Off belay"
4. pull up almost enough rope to reach the ground, tie a fig 8 on a bight and attach it to anchor or harness. (to prevent dropping it)
5. untie rope from harness, thread rope though the anchor, untie backup knot, verify both ends on the ground.
6. attach rappel device to harness, thread device
7. grab rope with brake hand, push with feet and pull rope through the device until your weighting the device instead of anchor draws, remove draws, rappel.
note. avoid clipping to chains if possible, better to clip directly to the hanger if possible
make sure not to clip draws to the bottom chain link as this is where the rope has to go
for part two do: a search for "texas rope trick" and jt512
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rrrADAM
Aug 21, 2003, 9:32 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: descend from a route with chains/rings at the top. Can someone describe it in a step-by-step manner? My understanding so far: hanging from the top draw, you tie off to the rings or chains using a couple draws or slings. Then you pull the rope up from the belayer and feed it through the rings. When you have the rope at about the halway point, you affix your rap device to your harness and the rope, unclip from the draws/slings you placed, and rap down (oversimplified) Part two of the question is: What if you are stuck at the crux? Can you get down and still retrieve all your gear? It doesn't seem safe to lower from 1 draw and pull the rest of the gear below it... 1.get to the anchors, put a draw on, clip rope 2. clip a long draw to the other bolt, clip to belay loop 3. place a long draw on the first bolt and clip to harness. "Off belay" 4. pull up almost enough rope to reach the ground, tie a fig 8 on a bight and attach it to anchor or harness. (to prevent dropping it) 5. untie rope from harness, thread rope though the anchor, untie backup knot, verify both ends on the ground. 6. attach rappel device to harness, thread device 7. grab rope with brake hand, push with feet and pull rope through the device until your weighting the device instead of anchor draws, remove draws, rappel. note. avoid clipping to chains if possible, better to clip directly to the hanger if possible make sure not to clip draws to the bottom chain link as this is where the rope has to go for part two do: a search for "texas rope trick" and jt512
Am I missing something here ??? Looks like you are saying to trust your likfe to one piece, as in one bolt.
Bad practice... Never trust your life to just one piece.
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thrillseeker05
Aug 21, 2003, 9:45 PM
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The procedure goes like this….
1. go to bookstore
2. browse climbing section
3. find Freedom of the Hills
4. buy it
5. read it
6. repeat
are you leading these pitches? I hope not. If you aren’t leading then you don’t have to worry about setting the rappel. If it is a double rope rappel then please let the seasoned climbers you are going with set it up and show you.
one thing I suggest.. keep your atc/rappel device attached to your belay loop. Taking it off/on your gear loops increases the chance you will drop it.
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wigglestick
Aug 21, 2003, 9:54 PM
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Adam, you are missing something. Points 2 & 3 say to attach a draw from each bolt and attach it to your harness.
In reply to: The procedure goes like this…. 1. go to bookstore 2. browse climbing section 3. find Freedom of the Hills 4. buy it 5. read it 6. repeat are you leading these pitches? I hope not. If you aren’t leading then you don’t have to worry about setting the rappel. If it is a double rope rappel then please let the seasoned climbers you are going with set it up and show you. one thing I suggest.. keep your atc/rappel device attached to your belay loop. Taking it off/on your gear loops increases the chance you will drop it.
It has been my experience that if you don't lead you will probably learn to clean the anchors first. The leader leads and then the cleaner cleans. Unless the leader wants to climb everything twice. Which isn't a big deal but in the interest of getting in as many routes as possible in a day it is nice if the second person who is top roping the route learns to clean the anchors.
Leaving the ATC attached to your harness is a good way to get hit in the nuts. If you drop it just have somebody tie it to the rope and bring it back up.
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 21, 2003, 9:55 PM
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In reply to: Am I missing something here ??? Looks like you are saying to trust your likfe to one piece, as in one bolt. Bad practice... Never trust your life to just one piece.
I guess your missing something.
I get what your thinking, I answered in light of part two of the question which involved bailing on a lead attempt.
So in my scenario he would be backed up by the bolt below him while he set up his anchor
I will edit it to make that clearer.
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thrillseeker05
Aug 21, 2003, 10:01 PM
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The general exception to that rule is you don’t have to clean if you are a noob and don’t know what the hell you are doing.
Secondly if the leader leads more then one pitch most likely he is standing/sitting/hanging at the top right next to you when you begin to rap back down.
Lastly… dropping your ATC is NOT a good thing. You shouldn’t have to worry about being sacked since you don’t have a huge hunk of steel hanging from your belay loop. It’s just an ATC. If you keep it on your gear
loop just bring a back up.
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 21, 2003, 10:14 PM
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In reply to: The procedure goes like this…. 1. go to bookstore 2. browse climbing section 3. find Freedom of the Hills 4. buy it 5. read it 6. repeat are you leading these pitches? I hope not. If you aren’t leading then you don’t have to worry about setting the rappel. If it is a double rope rappel then please let the seasoned climbers you are going with set it up and show you. one thing I suggest.. keep your atc/rappel device attached to your belay loop. Taking it off/on your gear loops increases the chance you will drop it.
1) Freedom of the hills doesn't tell you how to clean a sport anchor.
2) learning is always a good thing.
3) I don't leave my belay device hanging on the belay loop.
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keinangst
Aug 21, 2003, 10:49 PM
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Indeed, FOTH is a great book but doesn't say much (anything?) about sport.
Second, I am asking these questions because I never planned on ever doing any sport climbing. That said, I know a good bit about anchors, forces, self-rescue, trad gear placement, redundancy, etc, but never had to do any of it from a sport setup (ie chains, rap rings).
Dropping the ATC is not life-threatening, since I can do a biner wrap or Munter with my eyes closed. Dropping the rope is a different story...
All this stuff is single pitch, well within my TR abilities. So I will be leading some, and cleaning some.
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renobdarb
Aug 21, 2003, 11:04 PM
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In reply to: Bad practice... Never trust your life to just one piece.
Absolutely... the only time i've ever done this is when i've had to bail in the middle of a sport route, and even when that happens i've sometimes managed to find a way to back up the bolt i'm on when setting up the rapp system...
-brad
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thrillseeker05
Aug 21, 2003, 11:11 PM
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First of all you declared yourself a noob. So who knows what you would already have known. Second if you know how to set up a rap on trad then you should easily apply that to sport. The only difference is that your anchors are permanently there. Even in trad you often will find permanent rappel rings. Lastly you mentioned that you pull your rope all the way up from the belayer? I have never seen this. In trad or sport. You lock off, untie and thread. Simple as that.
Freedom of the hills goes over anchors and rappelling. Does it have to say SPORT on it for you to understand? dropping your ATC can be life threatening if you don’t have a way to back it up, but it doesn’t matter to me do as you please. Obviously you know everything you need to know.
Why are you concerned about bailing at the crux if it is all TR that is “well within your abilities”?
But to answer your question… bring a $2 bail out biner or someone who can actually do the climb.
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 22, 2003, 12:04 AM
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You always come off as being angry, what is up with that.
If the pulling the rope question was directed to me as I said it. Then most people I know do tie their rope to something to prevent dropping it. Most people also tie the back up close to the end of the rope, so that when they untie it they still take a risk of dropping the rope. If you pull the rope up first, then the rope is most of the way through the anchor before you untie the backup.
MTFOTH doesn’t tell to tie your rope off to prevent dropping, they also don’t describe how to weight the rappel device in order to clean the anchor draws. For someone who thinks the book is so great, you sure don’t seem to know much about what is in it.
Dropping your atc is far from being life threatening in any possible circumstance.
Why are you so concerned with him asking a simple question. He also said he was going to lead, duh.
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 22, 2003, 5:46 PM
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Adam,
Now that I look at this again I realize that you were trying to flame me.
At first I thought you misintepreted it as being directions to clean a top rope, but now that I think about it that doesn't make sense either. If he was on a top rope, he would of course already be clipped to the anchors.
It looks like I am on your bad side now as shown by your seemingly vindictive behavior. If your going to try to flame someone it might be a good idea to make sure you know what your talking about.
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thrillseeker05
Aug 22, 2003, 6:25 PM
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I’m not angry I just have a matter-of-fact way of saying things. No dropping your atc isn’t life threatening in most cases. MTFOTH tells you plenty the rest needs to be shown to you. if you don’t know how to NOT drop the rope or how to weight the rappel device then you really shouldn’t be cleaning.
Also Adam wasn’t flaming you. if he was you would know it. stop being so sensitive or get your red dress on.
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alpnclmbr1
Aug 22, 2003, 6:49 PM
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I am not taking any of this stuff to seriously.
As far as my original post I gave adam the benefit of the doubt at first, then in retrospect I really don't see how he could of interpreted my original post as advising trusting your life to one bolt. Can you?
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thrillseeker05
Aug 22, 2003, 6:59 PM
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it's all good and your advice was valid. as far as Adam... I dont try and see what's in his mind. no one but Adam should go there.
:lol:
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rrrADAM
Aug 22, 2003, 7:03 PM
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Got it 'alpine'... My bad. :(
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trad_mike
Aug 22, 2003, 7:13 PM
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thrillseeker05 wrote:
dropping your ATC can be life threatening if you don’t have a way to back it up
If you drop your ATC and still have a carabiner, you can always belay and rappel with a munter hitch. It is only a life threatening situation through lack of knowledge.
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firn
Aug 22, 2003, 7:35 PM
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Hi kein,
If you even read this far, you can try this:
http://www.planetmountain.com/English/Lab/techniques/singlepitch/index.html
It's nice, clean, fast, and you are never separated from the rope.
+A
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jt512
Aug 22, 2003, 7:37 PM
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In reply to: one thing I suggest.. keep your atc/rappel device attached to your belay loop. Taking it off/on your gear loops increases the chance you will drop it.
That is impractical advice. If you climb with your ATC on your belay loop, it is going to bang around and hit you inthe dick, or other private part, as applicable; if you're climbing anything vertical, where you have to suck your hips into the rock, the ATC will get in the way, as it will if you are leading and go to grab your rope. Carry your ATC out of the way on a rear gear loop, and just don't drop it. If you do drop it while sport climbing, just have your partner lower you; why are you rapping off a sport climb in the first place? As for dropping it trad climbing, if you don't know how to rig a carabiner brake rappel and use a munter hitch, you shouldn't even be trad climbing.
-Jay
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thrillseeker05
Aug 22, 2003, 8:12 PM
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Dude THINK before you quote shitz from my posts…
You aren’t saying ANYTHING that I haven’t said already. Think about it.
This thread is titled, “Noob……”
With that information and that fact that he doesn’t know how to set and anchor or clean one or rappel for that matter supports what I said and what you have repeated….
“It is only a life threatening situation through lack of knowledge.”
Now if you have anything useful to add go for it….
WTF
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dalguard
Aug 22, 2003, 8:27 PM
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Very simple. Before you make any move, ask yourself:
1. What is keeping me safe?
2. What is keeping the rope safe?
The answer should never be "my grip."
If you take it slowly and keep your mind on those two questions, you'll figure it out as you go. Bringing a pair of two foot slings up with you is helpful.
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