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jt512
Sep 16, 2003, 11:24 PM
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Experienced sport climbers disagree on whether it is advantageous to grab the rope near their knot when they fall off a steep route. Some say it keeps them upright; other's that it doesn't. If you are an experienced sport climber, what do you do, and why? Do you have any specific experiences in which you think grabbing or not grabbing the knot made a difference in the outcome of a fall?
-Jay
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coldclimb
Sep 16, 2003, 11:41 PM
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My not-extremely-extensive experience has been that it's best to use your hands as well as your feet to help take the impact of the wall. This is the same principal that cats use when they land on all four feet instead of two. :wink: Never saved myself by grabbing the knot, but I have slammed so hard that my legs weren't strong enough to keep me from crunching into a little ball against the wall and bouncing off.
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t-nutz
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Sep 16, 2003, 11:57 PM
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I think that it depends on the length of the fall. On long falls I try to keep my hands in front of me and not to the side or above my head (cat like). The reason is that if you hands are above you or out to the side your arms can wip back and cause shoulder injuries. :D
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alpnclmbr1
Sep 17, 2003, 12:22 AM
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To start with, I don’t grab the rope.
Why? I don’t really know, I vaguely remember it being discouraged for some reason. I honestly don’t know if I could grab it while falling.
Last time I can remember grabbing the rope was when I was heel hooking over my head when I fell and I grabbed to rope to keep from pearling backwards head first. (this was a slow motion fall)
One other time I was toe heeling and my foot stayed stuck and I had to grab the wrong side of the rope and yard to get it to release.
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caughtinside
Sep 17, 2003, 1:03 AM
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I don't grab the knot, or the rope.
That said, I saw an issue of climbing a few years back, maybe R&I, with a piece on Leo Houlding. Article said he took falls well, and it showed a picture with him taking a BIG fall, and I remember noticing he had at least one hand on the knot.
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camhead
Sep 17, 2003, 1:20 AM
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a dude at rifle lost his finger a couple of months ago when it became entangled in the rope during a whipper. I know that this is way unlikely, but it is enough for me to keep my hands off.
I also seem to remember that for really long falls off of steep rock, Dan Osman advised going completely headfirst, thus reducing the whiplash that happens when your body inverts.
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coldclimb
Sep 17, 2003, 1:45 AM
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Dean potter grabs the rope in the video of him falling on tombstone that was posted here a while back. So does Neil in the video of his groundfall a few weeks ago, and in the video phil posted of the disappearing boy, that guy does too. Is it just natural instinct?
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drkodos
Sep 17, 2003, 1:52 AM
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Do whatever it takes....
Like all things climbing, there is no absolute.
In general, if done correctly, it would seem to have greater positive effects than negative. Sometimes it is the absolute best thing (in order to remove a leg entanglement --See Rock & Ice pics of Gottlieb taking 60 whipper on Enduro Man where his hand on the knot save his A$$)
Those in disagreement with the above statement have not been exposed to a large enough sample size, or, like most cases on this site, just need to cling dogmatically to their set of beliefs.
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roughster
Sep 17, 2003, 4:35 AM
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Agree with drkodos that there is no "absolute". I personally feel that anyone grabbing the rope most likely is from the human psychology of trying to grab anything at the momet of recognition that you are falling.
My personal action is to not grab the rope, and to keep "spread out" while falling. To understand why, go jump off of some 50+ foot train bridges into the water and you will understand very quickly. Having your arms free to move and make small adjustments can and does effect your rotation and control of body position while falling.
Another negative to grabbing the rope is that in many cases becoming used to grabbing the rope, even at the knot, can cause rope burn depending on how tight you grip it. The rope stretch or if you have a small bit of slack between your hand and the knot will cause rope burn of varying degree at the conclusion of a fall.
Now there is a benfit of grabbing if you "know" the rope needs some help clearing your leg, but in reality, the times where this is necessary does not justify IMO developing the habit of grabbing the rope in the 1st place.
And in the end, when I fall I like to to be unexpected or in the middle of a move because I tried till I fell, not because I elected to let go w/o even trying :)
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daisuke
Sep 17, 2003, 4:42 AM
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I tend to grab about a foot above the knot when I fall on toprope as do most of the people I know, it tends to keep you upright, yes. but when it comes to leading I never try to grab the rope, it's not going to help you muchand it's not like it's easy to grab when you're flailing to keep upright. grabbing the rope on toprope can also mean you grab the wrong end and burn yourself, I've never done it but I've heard of cases of it happening
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yadeb
Sep 17, 2003, 5:12 AM
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I agree with roughster totaly.
When falling on a steep grade, grabbing the rope by the knot is the same as standing on a tire swing and pulling on the rope. Once the rope becomes tight you will snap forward right into the wall :shock: . This is the problem i see with grabbing the rope, but if the situation calls for you to untangle your self, then go for it. In addition; i have been instructed by a hand full of climbing instructors to never grab the rope. Spread eagle and try to control your fall like parachuting.
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squish
Sep 17, 2003, 6:53 AM
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It depends on how top-heavy you are. :wink:
I see this question has been posed for the "experienced sport climbers." To put in my two cents, I'm much more of a trad climber than a sport climber, and I rarely ever find myself in situations with my feet over my head. Having learned on slabby and featured terrain, my experience is likely different from someone coming from the gym.
I don't grab the rope as a general rule, but if I think it will help then I might put a hand on it for stability. It depends, but I don't make it a habit.
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overlord
Sep 17, 2003, 7:09 AM
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if the route is STEEP its probably a good idea, since it will keep you upside up and if the belayer knows how to belay steep stuff you probably wont even get near the wall. but if its likely youre gonna hit the wall, use your hands to keep your head and ribs off it.
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dechristo
Sep 17, 2003, 7:28 AM
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Yeah, I usually and instinctively grab my knot when I fall.
Oh... you're talkin' about the knot in the rope...
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javaguy
Sep 17, 2003, 9:35 AM
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I automatically grab the rope when i take a fall...it's instinct..i need to grab on to something. I belive there is no danger in grabbing the rope in the moment of a fall. So if you have that habit there is no reason to try to change it.
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sbclimber
Sep 17, 2003, 4:27 PM
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I would have to say that I think it is best to spread everything out, and control parachute style, as someone else said.
Also...
In reply to: Having your arms free to move and make small adjustments can and does effect your rotation and control of body position while falling. |
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jipstyle
Sep 17, 2003, 4:57 PM
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In reply to: My not-extremely-extensive experience has been that it's best to use your hands as well as your feet to help take the impact of the wall. This is the same principal that cats use when they land on all four feet instead of two. :wink:
You're not a cat.
Your arms are not even close to as strong as your legs ... if your legs can't absorb the impact from the swing into the wall, your arms won't help. Then again, if your legs can't absorb that impact ... look into another sport.
When you lean forward (as you must, to absorb the impact in part with your arms), you drastically reduce the amount of impact that your legs can absorb ... lean back in your harness instead, and swing straight into the wall with your legs. You might twist an ankle (though I never have ... ), but you'll never shatter your wrists.
In reply to: Never saved myself by grabbing the knot, but I have slammed so hard that my legs weren't strong enough to keep me from crunching into a little ball against the wall and bouncing off.
*shudder*
I can only imagine what would have happened to your wrists if you'd absorbed any part of that impact with your arms.
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jt512
Sep 17, 2003, 6:08 PM
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In reply to: I agree with roughster totaly. When falling on a steep grade, grabbing the rope by the knot is the same as standing on a tire swing and pulling on the rope. Once the rope becomes tight you will snap forward right into the wall :shock:
I had hoped that responses would be based on experience, rather than speculation. I can tell you from experience, that you do not get "snapped forward right into the wall" when you grab the knot. Nothing like that happens at all.
-Jay
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jt512
Sep 17, 2003, 6:16 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: My not-extremely-extensive experience has been that it's best to use your hands as well as your feet to help take the impact of the wall. This is the same principal that cats use when they land on all four feet instead of two. :wink: You're not a cat. Your arms are not even close to as strong as your legs ... if your legs can't absorb the impact from the swing into the wall, your arms won't help. Then again, if your legs can't absorb that impact ... look into another sport. When you lean forward (as you must, to absorb the impact in part with your arms), you drastically reduce the amount of impact that your legs can absorb ... lean back in your harness instead, and swing straight into the wall with your legs. You might twist an ankle (though I never have ... ), but you'll never shatter your wrists. In reply to: Never saved myself by grabbing the knot, but I have slammed so hard that my legs weren't strong enough to keep me from crunching into a little ball against the wall and bouncing off. *shudder* I can only imagine what would have happened to your wrists if you'd absorbed any part of that impact with your arms.
Indeed. I am shocked by the number of people who think they should be using their hands to absorb the imapct of the fall. This is absolutely wrong. You absorb the impact with your legs only. Put your legs out in front of you and bend at the knees and hips when your feet strike the wall, just like how a cat lands. You, however, have only 2 legs, not 4 like the cat.
The same applies when you are belaying and get pulled up (or jump) when your partner falls. Stick your feet out in front of you to absorb the impact with the wall. Your hands stay on the rope(!), and play no part in breaking your fall.
-Jay
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jipstyle
Sep 17, 2003, 6:50 PM
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In reply to: I had hoped that responses would be based on experience, rather than speculation. I can tell you from experience, that you do not get "snapped forward right into the wall" when you grab the knot. Nothing like that happens at all.
It also makes no sense from a physics perspective. You can't pendulum on 12" of rope, when you have 10-40ft. out.
Anyone who tries to picture a pendulum from their hand down to their harness swinging them into the wall should be able to see this clearly.
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rrrADAM
Sep 17, 2003, 7:14 PM
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I try to keep my hands and feet in front of me to have a more controlled "encounter with the rock" when I fall. Not to absorb any impact, but to keep my head from absorbing the impact... 'Cause that would be bad, m'kay. :wink:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=10026
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killclimbz
Sep 17, 2003, 7:39 PM
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Way to start a great topic Jay.
I guess it just depends for me. Most times I try not to grab the knot, just to get my legs in front of me to protect myself. I tend to fall laying back like I'm in a lounge chair if that makes any sense. Over my climbing career this has kept me from getting hurt twice. One time I was pulling up for a long clip and my foot blew just as I was ready to clip. I was about 30ft up. When I got caught, I was able to put my feet on the ground and stand up. Same thing happened when I had a hold blow on me just above the first clip of another climb. Good belayers, good body position, and some dumb luck have kept me relatively unharmed throughout the years. Then again I have "bounced" before too.
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yadeb
Sep 17, 2003, 8:12 PM
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Oh! I was thinking that often, atleast when i have seen people fall, they instinctivley pull the rope into them when they grab the knot at the same time. In this case i can see where the faller pulled hard enough to give him self a swing. It takes to points of contact to make a rope swing, the distance between the two points will give the degree of swing. I have done it and i learned that when i do grab the knot it's more of a relaxed hold then a tight one.
I can only speak from what i have experienced and i did not mean to get anyone up-set.
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andypro
Sep 17, 2003, 8:25 PM
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While I'm not a sport climber, I'm gonna interject anywhoo...
If I'm falling flat on my back style..I put my hand on (not grab) the rope (not the knot) towards the end of the fall if I havn't righted myself yet (if it's a short fall, I'll just put my hand on it asap). This keeps me form inverting and not being ABLE to get my legs toward the rock to absorb the impact. That and falling flat on your back hurts like a mofo without a chest harness or that third leg of support (rope arm). Other than that, I leave it alone and use my hands to keep my face from whacking. That hurts even more.
And all this stuff about cats...ya gotta remember...a cat has 4 or 5 times the number of muscles in thier shoulder alone, 10 times the relative strength limb wide, and 6 points of flexion (as compared to 3 in a human) all in thier front legs (arms). Thier shoulder is also not attached to any joint, only by muscle. This gives them a full range of flexion in a truly spherical pattern, and also the ability to deflect the actual "joint position" within a limited sphere as well. To actually try to immitate a cat's use of it's front legs would be almost certain injury, possibly very serious. So dont watch your cat and try to copy them :wink:
--Andy P
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mreardon
Sep 17, 2003, 8:48 PM
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In reply to: I had hoped that responses would be based on experience, rather than speculation. I can tell you from experience, that you do not get "snapped forward right into the wall" when you grab the knot. Nothing like that happens at all.
I agree. And whoever is slamming into the wall needs to get a better belayer. You don't slam with a dynamic belay, and even if it's not dynamic, it takes a helluva fall to create enough force to do half of what is being sprayed here.
Back to the question - I fall. A lot. I fall at least 200 times a year on a rope, and that's without working a project.
I prefer not to grab the rope and fly parachute style to control some of the fall, but that's when I know I'm falling. Usually I'm pushing myself and it's a surprise to all involved when I go. Can't count the times I'm still in climbing position when the rope catches me a second later. Because of that, instinct takes over and my hand regularly grabs the rope. I'm not grabbing the knot on purpose. If anything, I'm just grabbing the closest thing, and on more than one occasion, especially on long slab runs, I don't touch anywhere near the knot and will accidently burn my hand on the rope, or even worse, grab a draw or gear on the way past and yank my shoulder out of whack. Again, not on purpose, just an instinct thing that I can't control.
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