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pdoidy
Oct 7, 2003, 6:52 PM
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How do most people mark the middle of their rope?
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ropeburn
Oct 7, 2003, 6:57 PM
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In reply to: How do most people mark the middle of their rope?
I use tape and marker, depends on the color of the rope.
Tape can be somewhat bulky going through a belay device. You can find the middle by feel if it's taped.
Marker can sometimes be hard to see and can wear away.
I might try whipping with thread next rope though.
:mrgreen:
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pdoidy
Oct 7, 2003, 7:01 PM
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The reason I ask is that I just bought a rope and the documentation gives two types of Markers that "Will not damage the rope" I have neither type but I am very curious as to the damage a sharpie would do to a climbing rope.
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msiddens
Oct 7, 2003, 7:18 PM
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I've used tape for years but useage causes it to eventually peel off. Markers work a wee bit better though some recent data has indicated that it may actually decrease the overall strength of the rope. Couldn't find a link but others may have it handy.
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trbrts
Oct 7, 2003, 7:30 PM
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or you can just tie the ends of the rope together (like you are suppossed to when you rap) and start stacking the rope from there.
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alpnclmbr1
Oct 7, 2003, 7:33 PM
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MARKING OF ROPES
That marking a climbing rope with a felt pen can damage it was first reported in 1998. The German Alpine Cub tested a Sharpie felt pen (made in USA and sold in Germany), which apparently was advertised for use on climbing ropes (to mark the middle of the rope, for instance). In the tests the ropes were marked and the marked area was placed at the orifice plate in the standard UIAA drop test. Five unmarked samples held 10 - 12 falls, while three marked samples held 6 - 8 falls. This information was published at that time in the Gazette of The Alpine Club of Canada as well as in The American Alpine News.
Last year this topic re-appeared on the Internet as well as in Climbing and Rock & Ice. In both magazines the use of felt pens was recommended for the (middle) marking of ropes, while the Internet correspondence centered on the damage. The press, despite being told about the possible damage, did nothing about it. Among the users there was doubt about the sources of the information.
Last year two rope manufacturers (Lanex and Mammut) and the German Alpine Club visited this problem again. Various samples of non-dry and superdry rope were tested using a variety of felt pens (Sharpie was not among them). Testing was done seven to 30 days after application. Reduction varied from zero to 50 % in the number of drops held. Superdry ropes generally had less capacity reduction than non-dry, possibly because the saturation was less. However, one particular rope sample had an insignificant increase in capacity for the non-dry rope, but a 35 % reduction for the superdry. This rope, by the way, was the only one, which did not have a reduction in capacity for both the non-dry and superdry sample.
Middle markings, which come with a new rope and were applied by the manufacturer, are safe. Do rope manufacturers sell trustworthy markers? Mammut tested the "Rope Marker", a pen sold by Beal. The reduction was 50 % for the non-dry and 17 % for the superdry rope. Mammut tested five days and four weeks after application. The capacity reduction was more for tests done four weeks after application.
Sanford, the manufacturer of the Sharpie pens, will apparently not guarantee a consistent product. The ingredients of the pen may vary. There is no "standard" formula for the chemicals that are contained in the markers. The company has also stated that "Sanford will not endorse or in any way recommend use of these markers for rope climbing (sic), and will not accept liabilities, which may arise from its use."
The recommendation: do not mark your rope with any kind of felt pen. Water-soluble acrylic paints are apparently safe. No information is available how long they stay on.
The bottom line: (for a rope, which would be safe under normal circumstances) there is a risk when the marked area is loaded by a fall over an edge. Who buys lottery tickets?
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alpnclmbr1
Oct 7, 2003, 7:37 PM
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In reply to: or you can just tie the ends of the rope together (like you are suppossed to when you rap) and start stacking the rope from there.
you're pretty much never supposed to tie the ends of your rappel ropes together. try it sometime and you will quickly learn why.
Some people do recommend tieing knots in the end of each rope independently.
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rrrADAM
Oct 7, 2003, 7:37 PM
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I used to use a nuclear grade marker that is high purity, but now I just use a piece of tape. No need to reinvent the wheel, and the tape even prompts the belayer to tell the leader when they've passed half way when it goes through the ATC. If you ever have to cop off a few meters from an end, it's not as confusing as two marks, as you just retape accordingly.
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pdoidy
Oct 7, 2003, 7:39 PM
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0% to 50% are not odds I want to mess with. Viva la Tape!!!!
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alpiner
Oct 7, 2003, 7:43 PM
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In reply to: The bottom line: (for a rope, which would be safe under normal circumstances) there is a risk when the marked area is loaded by a fall over an edge. Who buys lottery tickets?
You keep posting this nonsense but it doesn't change the fact that there has never been a verified case of rope cutting, weakening, or wearing faster after 30 frickin years of climbers doing it. Please cite one real world example, just one, of a marker causing even a hint of damage. Can you even give a third hand annecdote of a problem? Until then, STFU.
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meataxe
Oct 7, 2003, 7:43 PM
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In reply to: I used to use a nuclear grade marker...
I just gotta have one of those for my pocket protector... Every nerd's dream. :lol:
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freudian
Oct 7, 2003, 7:48 PM
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No Offense dude, but tying the ends of the rope together to rappell just isn't practical or possible in many cases, esp. when trad climbing.
Andrew
In reply to: or you can just tie the ends of the rope together (like you are suppossed to when you rap) and start stacking the rope from there. |
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overlord
Oct 7, 2003, 8:01 PM
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use a soft tip non alcoholic marker. or tape. but tape can get unglued ans slide up/down the rope... thats the main problem, so use good tape and replace it sometimes.
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rrrADAM
Oct 7, 2003, 8:02 PM
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It's not good to "tie the ends together" when rapping, as you will have one big twisted knot... Always better to tie knots into "each end" individually, so they can twist seperately instead of into a huge knot.
Learned this after my first rap. :wink:
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chugach001
Oct 7, 2003, 8:05 PM
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Tape and markers are all risking chemical reactions that are variable based on ingredients per mfg. run. I failed chemistry so just gently sew thread through the sheath weave which is visual and has some feel.
Good luck,
Jeff
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granitegod
Oct 7, 2003, 9:04 PM
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My experience: I marked my last rope with a Sharpie. Climbed with it for 4 years. Never failed me. Was it weakened? Maybe......but so friggin what?
Ropes are WAAAAYYYYYYYY strong. Even if it only holds 5 UIAA falls.....it will hold lots and lots of lead falls, since the UIAA test is SEVERE.
You will NEVER take a fall as severe as a UIAA test RIGHT ON the midway mark (unless you like to run it out 80 or 90 feet........zoinks! The safety question is this: does the marker weaken the tensile strength of the rope? Maybe. 50%? I doubt that. I think the important thing to remember is the FALL FACTOR. The stress points on a rope when you fall are where the rope runs through the biner of your gear that catches you (highest), and at your harness knot, and your belayer's device (in the case where you don't have much rope out to absorb the impact). Once you've got half the rope out, you're not going to put much stress (ie high fall factor) on the rope, because all that rope stretch ABSORBS ENERGY.
So as far as I'm concerned, tape it, mark it, paint it, whatever. Statistically, you're probably more likely to die from rapping off the end of
your rope because you don't know where the middle is and forget to tie knots in the end cuz it's raining buckets while you're baling off Castleton in a thunderstorm. 'Nuff said.
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mattheww
Oct 7, 2003, 9:42 PM
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I wrap a piece of dental floss around the rope at the center. I don't remember the name of the knot I used but saw something about it here on a post while searching for info.
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ricardol
Oct 7, 2003, 10:05 PM
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i cut a small nick onto the sheath of the rope with a hotknife to mark the middle of my rope.
-- ricardo
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msiddens
Oct 7, 2003, 10:58 PM
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Alpiner, you kinda going off a little bit there aren't ya? I mean, I've been marking my rope with a pen and/or tape for 15 plus years without one single issue. Then again, it I was the ONLY single statistic of this, I'd be pretty pissed off!
This has more to do with providing ALL the info and allowing everyone to make their own decisions.
Cheers,
Marc
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pdoidy
Oct 8, 2003, 2:12 AM
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In reply to: i cut a small nick onto the sheath of the rope with a hotknife to mark the middle of my rope. -- ricardo |
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curt
Oct 8, 2003, 3:08 AM
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The best solution, by far, is to buy a rope such as the Mammut Duodess, that changes pattern mid-rope. With a rope like this, there is never any doubt as to where the mid-point is--and there is no need to mark it.
Curt
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mike
Oct 8, 2003, 3:21 AM
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In reply to: The best solution, by far, is to buy a rope such as the Mammut Duodess, that changes pattern mid-rope. With a rope like this, there is never any doubt as to where the mid-point is--and there is no need to mark it. Curt |
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alpnclmbr1
Oct 8, 2003, 3:23 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: The bottom line: (for a rope, which would be safe under normal circumstances) there is a risk when the marked area is loaded by a fall over an edge. Who buys lottery tickets? You keep posting this nonsense but it doesn't change the fact that there has never been a verified case of rope cutting, weakening, or wearing faster after 30 frickin years of climbers doing it. Please cite one real world example, just one, of a marker causing even a hint of damage. Can you even give a third hand annecdote of a problem? Until then, STFU.
Just to keep the record straight this comment comes from a newbie who has been leadin trad for a little over a year and likes to put quarter marks on his rope.
ps. I notice you erased your climbing history info from your profile, interesting.
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climbalon
Oct 8, 2003, 4:51 AM
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In reply to: i cut a small nick onto the sheath of the rope with a hotknife to mark the middle of my rope. -- ricardo
~Alon
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